A challenge to the orthodoxy

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tbdana
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A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by tbdana »

I keep hearing the same thing over and over. Someone asks how to improve their high range, and several people respond that practicing your low range will improve your high range. In essence, this boils down to the belief that putting in work on your low range (only) will somehow make you able to play higher and with more facility in the upper range. I think this is utter nonsense. My belief is that you get a better high range by practicing your high range. But I'm starting this thread so you can change my mind. I'm always open to learning new things and being convinced that I was wrong. So, go for it.

A couple things before we begin:

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because a player works on their low range AND their high range, and the high range then improves, does not mean that the low range work improved the upper range. IMHO working on the upper range improved the upper range. And players with excellent upper ranges tend to practice and be able to play the entire horn, both low and high. But I don't believe practicing the low range is causative of the high range improvement.

There many things in tromboning that are personal and work for no good godforsaken identifiable reason for a particular person. But, you know, whatever works for you works for you. Anecdotal evidence -- "I practiced my low range and my high range improved" -- may be evidence that it worked for that person (although I doubt it), but is not evidence that it is a general rule that works for tromboners at large.

That said, if there are definable, identifiable, logical, provable reasons why practicing the low range causes your upper range to soar, let me hear them. I admit it, I'm skeptical! But I'm willing to learn. I mean, I'd love it if that were true. It's certainly much easier to practice the low range than the high range, and I'm all for as much laziness as I can get. :D

Prove it.
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NotSkilledHere
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by NotSkilledHere »

my understanding at least is that there are muscles that are worked out more and skills that are specifically perfected by working the low range. That doesnt necessarily make it so you can play high, but I think the idea is that a lot of what is worked on in the low range or allowed to be focused on in the low range helps when you want to work on the high range. of course, I agree that your high range will only develop/improve by literally playing the high ranges and directly working on it.

play low will not make high notes appear but perhaps the things that you focus on working on to make the low range good is the same for high range but just easier to work on in the low range as you pointed out it's easier to play low than high. Because when many of us work on high range we arent quite as focused on the same things as we are when we are in the low range. I think many of us are more intent on hitting the high notes than specific technicalities of muscles and stuff and our faces become a strained mess of muscles. whereas low notes just come out so you dont think so much about hitting them and work more on the appropriate muscles and stuff.

just my thoughts
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by BGuttman »

My experience was if I practiced only high range I developed a "high range set" and my lower and middle ranges suffered.

Mixing all ranges yielded improvement in high range without losing low range.

I personally don't buy the "practice low range to play high" meme. Practice low to play low, and practice high to play high.
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harrisonreed
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by harrisonreed »

Improving the low register and the ability to shift from below the staff to within the staff can be a way for players to improve their embouchure mechanics. You obviously need to practice in all registers, though!

I'm a big advocate that the tongue position is what controls all registers, and that the chops form and work based on what the tongue sets them up for, air wise. Building this skill and knowledge up forms a huge base for the rest of your playing to rest on.

The school of thought that likens the upper register to something that is strenuous and that you need to strengthen your face muscles for is missing out on the strength you gain from the tongue, the jaw position, and control over the air. These will win it over your "corners" every day of the week

Getting really good and moving through the very low range and mid range with good flexibility will make applying that same concept to the upper register much easier. And the application of that knowledge is the difference between a high F5 that sounds like it's in the middle of the staff vs the person just barely squeaking that note out with their chops.

For me the altissimo register is not something that you work out, exercise, and get better at. You just have to know how to do it. Like whistling.

Gear can play a huge role in all of this for one specific reason -- if your embouchure is physically limited (or maybe stretched too thin) by the mouthpiece diameter, you lose the ability to "skill" your way into the altissimo register. You start having to "muscle" your way up there. That is why I think low lip slurs are great -- if you can lip slur from below the staff all the way up to an F4 without having to physically reset the mouthpiece on the face or use excessive shifting, then you can likely keep going higher without any further drastic changes. If instead you have to shift the mouthpiece to get out of the pedals, and then move it physically on your face for the mid register, and again for the high Bb ... You are going to run out of room to keep shifting. Your upper register (and all other registers) is going to not be great.

Before someone says anything, by shifting, I mean physically moving the mouthpiece up and down over your lips, not changing the horn angle or the tongue position or the set of the jaw.

Long story short, the low register and moving to the mid register requires a lot *more* movement of the key components of the embouchure than going from the mid to upper register. Getting really good at controlling these movements together with your air in the low register makes the much more subtle changes for the upper register a synch.

Just my 2¢
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Burgerbob
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Burgerbob »

I've never heard anyone say they should ONLY work on low register to help high register, just that it was another tool in the toolbox.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Bach5G »

Our lead player says he can’t play 3rd because he can’t play low. I heard him struggle through Polkadots one morning. It’s not just that he doesn’t want to play 3rd.

Very odd to me.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Kbiggs »

One justification I’ve heard about practicing the low register to help the high register:

Practicing the low register helps to develop control of the air. Move enough air in different ways—ppp, fff, long phrases, etc.—and you start to get a feel for how to control air. With better control of your use of air, you can then focus more on the mechanics (embouchure [muscles, lips, tongue, etc.]), attitude, approach, and other thinkgs needed for the upper register.

I can understand this line of thinking. (FWIW, I don’t believe Phil Teele’s routine falls under this.) But the line of thinking that says, “Work on your low register to develop your high register” never made sense to me.
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Wilktone
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Wilktone »

I have the impression that this is more from trumpet pedagogy that has seeped into trombone, rather than some "universal" principle of brass playing that is accurate. There are a few famous (I might say, infamous) trumpet teachers/authors that advocate for a lot of pedal tone practice.

Practicing the low register *correctly* can definitely help the upper register. But as musicians we get better at what we practice, not usually what we don't practice. If you want to develop the upper register you have to spend some time learning and practicing how to play in the upper register.

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tbdana
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by tbdana »

I just spent an hour playing Rochuts up an octave. That is REALLY hard work. Sure wish I could skip that and just practice low notes to get that skill.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by norbie2018 »

Wilktone wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 5:30 pm
Practicing the low register *correctly* can definitely help the upper register. But as musicians we get better at what we practice, not usually what we don't practice. If you want to develop the upper register you have to spend some time learning and practicing how to play in the upper register.

Dave
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by harrisonreed »

tbdana wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:04 pm I just spent an hour playing Rochuts up an octave. That is REALLY hard work. Sure wish I could skip that and just practice low notes to get that skill.
Yes but you can already play up there! The advice is probably not so useful for a professional trombonist who is getting hired for gigs. You give that advice to kids who have trouble in the mid and low range but keep trying to practice "high notes" and can't do it.

Your mid and low range is already good. You have a wide base to the pyramid. So it's no wonder you can play Rochuts up an octave and actually work in that register.

The only other evidence I have for the case for low notes is that when I finally got my mouthpiece size settled, and began to really be able to expand my lower register downward, the work I put into the upper register was equally rewarded. It wasn't that I only practiced the low register, but that as the lower register expanded down, the upper register expanded up equally. On the equipment that I couldn't play well below the staff no matter what I did, I played equally poorly in the altissimo register.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by hyperbolica »

I used whole tone and chromatic scales to develop my high range. :pant:

But seriously, early in my career I had great high chops, and I still do if I can get back on tenor for a couple of weeks. I attribute the range to a bunch of things.
=Luck - good tooth structure
=Ignoring it- I didn't try to play high until someone suggested I should try it, so my chops were already developed before trying to play high destroyed them too much
=Good teacher- I had a good private teacher in high school who destroyed, then rebuilt my embouchure. I spent a lot of time developing tone through experimentation and critical listening.
=Work/patience - I spent a lot of time in high school doing the Arbans interval exercises. All of them. Low and high. Every day. And built speed and accuracy over the course of years.

There is no one thing that will do it for you, and some things have to be done in order.

-Good instrument selection and setup
-Correct embouchure
-Develop good sound (long tones, attacks, releases)
-Some sort of repetitive strength building exercises that includes getting a good solid sound in the high range and the ability to hear notes or intervals before you play them.

And somewhere in there I'll bet that you'll play some low notes. So maybe the conventional wisdom is right after all. :mrgreen:
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Wilktone »

Again, if one practices *correctly* in the lower register it can help the high range.

As a general teaching strategy, I tend to look at what works best in the upper register for a student and then work on bringing that embouchure technique correctly down to the middle and low register. There's a common approach that tries the reverse, start on the low notes and ascend high to develop the upper register. But the thing about low register playing - it's easier to play wrong and have it still sound OK. So the student (and some teachers) assume that it's fine in the middle/low register and look for solutions that involve starting down there and trying to connect that upwards.

Of course there are times when it is better to have a student start low and then practice ascending, but it's far less common in my experience.
harrisonreed wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:34 pm The only other evidence I have for the case for low notes is that when I finally got my mouthpiece size settled, and began to really be able to expand my lower register downward, the work I put into the upper register was equally rewarded. It wasn't that I only practiced the low register, but that as the lower register expanded down, the upper register expanded up equally. On the equipment that I couldn't play well below the staff no matter what I did, I played equally poorly in the altissimo register.
Just to play devil's advocate for a bit, how much of your expanded upper register was related to practicing the low register and how much was that you sorted out a good mouthpiece size for you that allowed you to develop the extreme ranges better?

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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by harrisonreed »

Wilktone wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 7:29 am
harrisonreed wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:34 pm It wasn't that I only practiced the low register, but that as the lower register expanded down, the upper register expanded up equally. On the equipment that I couldn't play well below the staff no matter what I did, I played equally poorly in the altissimo register.
Just to play devil's advocate for a bit, how much of your expanded upper register was related to practicing the low register and how much was that you sorted out a good mouthpiece size for you that allowed you to develop the extreme ranges better?

Dave
Why can't they be the same thing or related? If I get a mouthpiece that immediately improves my lower register, or allows me to make big strides there over a period of time, I've still "worked on improving the lower register".

I haven't heard many people who sound fantastic upstairs that sound like garbage downstairs.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Wilktone »

I just wonder if you would have found similar success with the mouthpiece that didn't fit your embouchure as well. Would the same practice on the older mouthpiece have been effective or did the mouthpiece switch allow you to practice low range in a way that was more correct for your face?

Reinhardt type IIIAs ("very high placement" embouchure type players) often find mouthpieces with bigger rims allow them to play in the low register more securely without really loosing the upper register. When the low register technique becomes correct it can help play correctly in the upper register in many cases.

I have heard players with great upper registers but who don't sound so good in the lower register. Particularly with lead trumpet players (often related to the equipment they choose to play that helps their lead playing). When I first change around my embouchure my upper register was much better, but I lost my low register at first and had to learn how to play correctly in the low register.

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tbdana
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by tbdana »

I'm probably in a small minority, but I don't believe equipment affects our ability to play in a particular range. Sure, matching equipment will make it sound better or feel easier, but if our mechanics are there we should be able play in the range regardless of equipment. I can play a double-high Bb on my bass trombone and a double-pedal Bb on my small bore tenor. Naturally they don't sound very good because the amplifier isn't designed for that range, so equipment most certainly does have a role in the ultimate sound. But just as far as being able to play the notes goes, my repeated refrain that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece" applies.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Doug Elliott »

"if our mechanics are there"

For some (or maybe many) players, the mechanics just don't work at all if the mouthpiece is too small. The typical symptom is needing to open your mouth a lot just to get low notes to work or sound good. That action pretty much destroys high range. So neither works well. That's where a larger diameter helps everything, high and low. It allows more range with less change.

"I can play a double-high Bb on my bass trombone and a double-pedal Bb on my small bore tenor."

So you effectively don't need to play different rim sizes to have your entire range accessible. You only really need to match the cup and backbore to the horn so it's easy and sounds good. That's exactly why I do what I do... mouthpieces that allow that, and teaching proper mechanics so everything is efficient.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Cmillar »

Wilktone wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:02 am I just wonder if you would have found similar success with the mouthpiece that didn't fit your embouchure as well. Would the same practice on the older mouthpiece have been effective or did the mouthpiece switch allow you to practice low range in a way that was more correct for your face?

Reinhardt type IIIAs ("very high placement" embouchure type players) often find mouthpieces with bigger rims allow them to play in the low register more securely without really loosing the upper register. When the low register technique becomes correct it can help play correctly in the upper register in many cases.

I have heard players with great upper registers but who don't sound so good in the lower register. Particularly with lead trumpet players (often related to the equipment they choose to play that helps their lead playing). When I first change around my embouchure my upper register was much better, but I lost my low register at first and had to learn how to play correctly in the low register.

Dave
I will personally attest to this!

During the Pandemic 'down-time' I went to Doug Elliott to get straightened around about mouthpieces...better late than never!

I'd tried every mouthpiece possible for my small bore horn, which is my main source of work all these years. Shoe boxes full of them. Get another mouthpiece....great for awhile....dissatisfaction sets in quickly.... high end backs up or loss of sound all over the horn....get another mouthpiece ..... rinse and repeat....

So, given my facial makeup Doug set me up with a large rim to suit me along with my homework and introduction to his Elliott/Reinhardt work. (Type IIIA)

High range? No problem now. Always there. High F is no big deal.

Low range? It's even more solid now and better than before (feels great again, back as when all I did was play my large bore horn through my university music studies)

Endurance? I feel stronger as a gig wears on.

So...just relating my experiences and seconding the idea that it really helps to have a mouthpiece that suits YOUR face, your horn, and what you play.

Then the high range can actually be something to be enjoyed...not feared!

There are 'many roads to Rome', and some brass players are born 'lucky' or are just able to make any piece of brass work for them.

But, for the majority of us, there are solutions. I suggest all young players find the real solutions now instead of waiting for years and spending thousands of dollars on various mouthpieces. You might make a change as your body and embouchure muscles develop and change, but at least you'll have some correct information as to how to make the proper mouthpiece choices.

See people like Doug Elliott, Dave Wilken, or Christian Griego at Griego and don't spend years in frustration.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by harrisonreed »

tbdana wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:38 am I'm probably in a small minority, but I don't believe equipment affects our ability to play in a particular range. Sure, matching equipment will make it sound better or feel easier, but if our mechanics are there we should be able play in the range regardless of equipment. I can play a double-high Bb on my bass trombone and a double-pedal Bb on my small bore tenor. Naturally they don't sound very good because the amplifier isn't designed for that range, so equipment most certainly does have a role in the ultimate sound. But just as far as being able to play the notes goes, my repeated refrain that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece" applies.
It's not about "amplifier" and how it fits in a certain range. That usually has to do with cup volume. The mechanics usually depend on the diameter, instead.

It's not a perfect analogy, but it's kind of like saying "everything important in running happens before the shoe". Let me give you shoes that are for a ten year old and see how the race goes. :tongue:
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Wilktone »

tbdana wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:38 am But just as far as being able to play the notes goes, my repeated refrain that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece" applies.
Well, just as an extreme example, I can play higher on trumpet than trombone and lower on trombone than on trumpet. It's not just the player, but equipment does have a pretty good influence on things.

Apropos of this topic, I've found practicing trumpet to help with my upper register trombone playing at times. I don't practice it trumpet enough, though, so maybe I'm imagining things.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by stevenvortigern »

It seems to me that having a good, resonant low register requires you to use more of your face. When I reach the limits of my low register, I sometimes see my whole jaw shake. I think if I had better control of the muscles all the way out to near my earlobes, I would be better able to form a solid, large, round aperture that would help in having all the low register notes be as resonant as my middle register.

Yoga and weight lifting coaches are always reminding you to "engage your core" muscles to better support whatever other body area your trying to exercise. My theory is that the more peripheral parts of the cheek and jaw muscles are like the "core" of your face.

Learning to use these muscles in the low register is the best way to enable yourself to know how to use them in ways that support the more central embouchure muscles for the high register. The improved coordination makes your central face not have to work so hard and gives you a more solid basis to build a resonant high-register out of.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Mr412 »

I've always been an advocate in my own learning that anything I can do to improve, further improves everything else I can already do.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Wilktone »

]
stevenvortigern wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 3:26 pm Yoga and weight lifting coaches are always reminding you to "engage your core" muscles to better support whatever other body area your trying to exercise. My theory is that the more peripheral parts of the cheek and jaw muscles are like the "core" of your face.
If anything is the "core" of the embouchure, it would be first the knot of muscles just under the mouth corners and then the chin area. I don't think you should be feeling effort or vibrations in your cheeks or near your ears, at any range.
stevenvortigern wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 3:26 pm Learning to use these muscles in the low register is the best way to enable yourself to know how to use them in ways that support the more central embouchure muscles for the high register.
In my experience it tends to be the opposite. It's so much easier to play wrong in the lower register, but when the upper register is working there are certain fundamental elements to the embouchure that are working correctly. As a pedagogical strategy I find it better in the long term to help students connect the upper register to the lower register than the opposite.

There are exceptions, but only if the lower register is working correctly to start with.
Mr412 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 3:54 pm I've always been an advocate in my own learning that anything I can do to improve, further improves everything else I can already do.
There is something to be said for learning how to learn. That said, we improve what we practice. For upper register control and endurance it requires practice in the upper register. Low register practice, done correctly, can help, but I don't think alone will improve the upper register.

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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by snowtraveler »

tbdana wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:38 am I'm probably in a small minority, but I don't believe equipment affects our ability to play in a particular range. Sure, matching equipment will make it sound better or feel easier, but if our mechanics are there we should be able play in the range regardless of equipment. I can play a double-high Bb on my bass trombone and a double-pedal Bb on my small bore tenor. Naturally they don't sound very good because the amplifier isn't designed for that range, so equipment most certainly does have a role in the ultimate sound. But just as far as being able to play the notes goes, my repeated refrain that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece" applies.
Wow, that's some set of chops. Anything special about your apparently non-orthodox approach?

I'm in favor of anything that expands understanding and ability—and ultimately, enjoyment of the instrument—so if that means departing from received "orthodoxy" then I'm all ears.
hyperbolica wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:09 pm I attribute the range to a bunch of things.
=Luck - good tooth structure
Speaking from personal, recent experience, dentition makes a world of difference. I really wish I'd had my teeth straightened long ago. Although I was able to build a good high register, it was very difficult and often frustrating. I was in awe of players who could blow those high notes so effortlessly.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by hyperbolica »

snowtraveler wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 1:38 pm Speaking from personal, recent experience, dentition makes a world of difference. I really wish I'd had my teeth straightened long ago. Although I was able to build a good high register, it was very difficult and often frustrating. I was in awe of players who could blow those high notes so effortlessly.
My teeth aren't exactly straight. I never had braces. The people (including trumpet players) that I've known with the best high range have had a bit of a V formed by their front 2 teeth.
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by snowtraveler »

hyperbolica wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 5:23 pm
snowtraveler wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 1:38 pm Speaking from personal, recent experience, dentition makes a world of difference. I really wish I'd had my teeth straightened long ago. Although I was able to build a good high register, it was very difficult and often frustrating. I was in awe of players who could blow those high notes so effortlessly.
My teeth aren't exactly straight. I never had braces. The people (including trumpet players) that I've known with the best high range have had a bit of a V formed by their front 2 teeth.
Be the first to grant that "straight" teeth aren't necessarily the answer: which is why this is so important to understand. All I can say is, my new teeth have changed things quite a lot.

(I mean, how could it be otherwise?)

We explore MP size and shape to understand the effects. I'd suggest that a player's own dentition should be considered at least likewise.

(Also, that's what I'm having to do, like it or not.)
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Re: A challenge to the orthodoxy

Post by Doug Elliott »

Regardless of the particular structure, you still have to learn and apply whatever details work.
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