Mystery German G bass trombone

[Finetales]

For those who were wanting a sequel to my "Mystery straight F bass trombone" thread, want no further!

I just took delivery of this C.F. Zetsche & Söhne bass trombone in G.



I sold that German straight F bass to a friend, and my small bore Boosey & Hawkes G bass trombone remains nothing more than a decoration thanks to its unusable slide. Neither of these instruments really scratch the itch I've had for many years - a truly modern long bass trombone. Something that feels and plays like an instrument made yesterday, not one made in the 19th century. Something with a modern, plated slide that falls under its own weight. Something that isn't so big that it sounds like a contra, or so small that it will never blend with anything but small bore tenors. Something that is a modern, great-playing bass trombone in every aspect, that just happens to be in a key lower than B-flat.

I figured such a thing didn't exist, and would require me to pony up serious cash one day far in the future to get one made from scratch. But I don't think that'll be necessary anymore, as first impressions of this new arrival tell me it's everything I've ever wanted in a "real" bass trombone.

This instrument has:

- A modern, plated 7-position slide that isn't too heavy, is easy to use with or without the handle, and falls under its own weight.
- A .550" single bore and 10" bell. No more weird or archaic specs; this is exactly what I would expect a modern G bass trombone to be.
- A D-flat attachment (you read that right! Not D, D-flat.) with a very long pull to C and a paddle that is more comfortable to use than some well-known horns (looking at you, every Olds with a valve ever).
- A rotor that, while it looks small, plays very well. Not stuffy, sounds great.
- A nice, gimballed slide handle.

In short, it has everything that my previous two long bass trombones lacked. But more importantly, how does it play?

It plays...like a bass trombone.

It's not a laborious task to play. It doesn't have any dead partials or a difficult high register. It's not stuffy or woofy or uneven. It's just...a bass trombone. I kid you not, this instrument is as easy and natural to play as my B-flat bass trombones. It seems to require no more effort other than remembering where to put the slide. It just...does what you want it to, like a good modern instrument should. It has a great big open sound, but one that is still 100% bass trombone. Not contra, not tuba on a stick, not woofy trombone.

This instrument is proof that longer instruments don't have to suck. That G and F bass trombones being cumbersome beasts of burden is not actually a function of the instrument's length at all, but just that that specific model isn't good. I've only had a chance to play it for a few minutes and I am already over the moon with it. My dream is real, and it's mine! (And before you ask, yes I will be putting a modern independent valve set on it.)

Just for fun, here's a shot comparing this German G bass (top) with my British G bass (bottom). Pretty interesting how different the slide-bell relationships are.



So what I'd like to know about this instrument is...when was it made, and why?

[JohnL]

I'm thinking early 20th century - maybe as late as the 1920's. Not much info about Carl Friedrich Zetsche and pretty much zero about his sons, but the company seems to have been active from the mid-1800's at least up until about 1900. I found images of instruments marked "C. F. Zetsche", "C. F. Zetsche & Sohn", "C. F. Zetsche & Söhne", and " C. F. Zetsche & Söhne Inh. C. & P. Hemesaat"

Large shank receiver?
Does it look like the plating on the inners is chrome or nickel?
Soldered-on stockings?
Are the stockings plated?

I wonder if it might have actually been built as a contra?

[Finetales]

Large shank receiver?
Does it look like the plating on the inners is chrome or nickel?
Soldered-on stockings?
Are the stockings plated?

Slightly undersized large shank, looks like nickel plating, I don't think the stockings are soldered on but I'm not sure, and the stockings are plated.

I wonder if it might have actually been built as a contra?

I would be surprised if it was, being as the 1937 straight F bass I had sounded much more contra-like than this does. This G bass is built and feels much more modern in every way than that F bass was.

[HowardW]

I'm thinking early 20th century - maybe as late as the 1920's. Not much info about Carl Friedrich Zetsche and pretty much zero about his sons, but the company seems to have been active from the mid-1800's at least up until about 1900. I found images of instruments marked "C. F. Zetsche", "C. F. Zetsche & Sohn", "C. F. Zetsche & Söhne", and " C. F. Zetsche & Söhne Inh. C. & P. Hemesaat"

Carl Friedrich Zetsche founded his workshop in 1823 in Berlin. His son Adolf Theodor Ferdinand Zetsche (1822-1866) join the firm by 1857 at the latest. A second son joined the firm in 1860/61 after which it was named "C. F. Zetsche & Söhne" [i.e., and sons], after 1893 it became "C. & P. Hemesaat vormals [formerly] C. F. Zetsche & Söhne." So if the engraving on the bell only has " C. F. Zetsche & Söhne," the instrument is from after 1860 but before 1893.

Howard

[Finetales]

The bell engraving says "C. F. Zetsche Söhne [no "&"], Berlin".

If it was really made in the late-19th century, I would be very impressed, especially in light of how much harder to play the two 1930s long basses I've owned were. This one plays like it was made yesterday!

Then again, the British G was presumably made for brass band use, and the German F seems to have been a military instrument. Perhaps this instrument was made to a higher standard for orchestral use, which is very plausible in the late 19th century.

What makes it more interesting in that context is that it is in G, rather than F. I know that other German G basses exist, but as far as I've read F was the norm.

[Chronos91]

That is super cool. How did you find it? Is it fully chromatic when you pull to C? And how do you plan to tune the valve set you'll add?

[Finetales]

That is super cool. How did you find it? Is it fully chromatic when you pull to C? And how do you plan to tune the valve set you'll add?

It was on eBay! And yes, it is fully chromatic with the valve in C.

Not sure about how I'm going to set the valves yet. On contras I've played in the past I've preferred American tuning, but on this instrument I may go with valves in E and C or C#. That's a future decision! Since it's fully chromatic with the valve in C, it's perfectly usable as is, so I'm not at all in a rush.

[Posaunus]

Tiffany,

This demands a video recording, once you have identified the right mouthpiece!

[JohnL]

I don't think the stockings are soldered on but I'm not sure, and the stockings are plated.

Soldered-on stockings typically have a sharp step down to the OD of the inner tube. Integral stockings have a short transition area.

My late 1940's 1485 has soldered-on stockings.

[Finetales]

Soldered-on stockings typically have a sharp step down to the OD of the inner tube. Integral stockings have a short transition area.

Here's a picture of the stockings.

Tiffany,

This demands a video recording, once you have identified the right mouthpiece!

I don't think any of my mouthpieces really fit the shank properly or are a true match for the instrument, so I definitely need to go on the hunt. But for now, here's a quick demo with one of my normal bass trombone mouthpieces.

[hornbuilder]

Noice!!

If I may, the correct use of the handle is to hold the cross brace with your fingers, with the handle resting along your arm. Then, practice "the toss" for the extended positions, whereby you throw the slide out, with the handle sliding between your fingers until you catch the handle.

I know it sounds horrendous, but it does work!!

[Finetales]

Every bass sackbuttist I've seen just holds the handle, either at the end like I do or in the middle when the outer positions aren't needed. That's how I learned and always played bass sackbut, so it's what I'm used to.

[hornbuilder]

One advantage I have from growing up in the British Brass Band world...

[Finetales]

Two different schools! I'll have to try your way and see how I get on with it.

[JohnL]

Here's a picture of the stockings.

Those look soldered on to me.

[hornbuilder]

Two different schools! I'll have to try your way and see how I get on with it.

Yes. It's funny, whenever I see someone play holding the end of the handle I think it looks so cumbersome. But then when those folks see someone use "the toss" they're like "oh wow, how cumbersome"! Use what works

[LeTromboniste]

Really cool horn! I'm jealous! With the bell engraving and the info offered by Howard, I would strongly suspect this is a bell from a different, earlier instrument recycled into a more recent one. The plated tubes, the bracing style, the slide guard, the waterkey...there's too many things pointing to a date quite a bit later than the 1860s to 90s... Although of course a bumber of those might have been later mods. But still.

Noice!!

If I may, the correct use of the handle is to hold the cross brace with your fingers, with the handle resting along your arm. Then, practice "the toss" for the extended positions, whereby you throw the slide out, with the handle sliding between your fingers until you catch the handle.

I know it sounds horrendous, but it does work!!

Every bass sackbuttist I've seen just holds the handle, either at the end like I do or in the middle when the outer positions aren't needed. That's how I learned and always played bass sackbut, so it's what I'm used to.

Two different schools! I'll have to try your way and see how I get on with it.

Yes. It's funny, whenever I see someone play holding the end of the handle I think it looks so cumbersome. But then when those folks see someone use "the toss" they're like "oh wow, how cumbersome"! Use what works

I'll add my grain of salt here since it's kind of a specialty of mine. I know it has historical precedent, but I strongly discourage people to change their grip position as they play. Every single student I work with on this, and who switches from holding the handle down near the slide and moving up only for long positions, to holding it always at the same spot, has had massive improvements overnight, in several aspects of their playing.

The problems I see with switching grips are this:
-you are much more likely to be inconsistent with exactly where you hold it. In any number of context you might not be able to immediately go back to the main grip, or not fully, and oftentimes people end up effectively not having only two grips but several slightly different ones. That's a frequent cause for shoddy intonation, or lack of control thereof.
-although the feeling of holding the handle closer to the slide is initially more comfortable and familiar because it feels closer holding a tenor slide, it's a bit of a false comfort. It means the distances between positions is much greater, requiring way more arm movement than on tenor.
-such excessive motion may cause instabilities with the embouchure, because it's very hard to move the slide with such big motions without disturbing horn angle, pressure, etc.
-it's almost impossible to be agile.

I always recommend finding the least far place where you can comfortably reach the lowest position (for a G bass, normally 7, for a D bass, 6) with your arm and the handle fully extended, and making that your default grip position, and not changing it while you play. For me, that's usually, on most instruments, a place where my hand is partly on the rod and partly on the pommel. On my modular bass, that depends on the tuning. In C, I have three fingers on the pommel, in D and F usually two on the pommel and two on the rod, and in G only one on the pommel and three on the rod. But while I'm playing that doesn't change.

I recommend a grip where you wrap your pinky and ring fingers around the handle, and the handle presses into your palm below those fingers. That's your main fulcrum point where the handle is under tension. Middle finger and index finger wrapped more loosely around the handle, with the middle finger roughly perpendicular to it and the index at around a 45° angle. Then your thumb rests against the handle, parallel to it and facing away from you. When extending the slide, your thumb and your pinky+ring fingers push into the handle from opposite sides, and when retracting the slide it's the opposite, the index and middle fingers pull back the handle towards you while your palm pushes the far end of it down away from you. Ultimately these small motions of your fingers combine with some motions of the wrist and some of the arm. Your elbow should never point behind you, and in first position the handle is point somewhat towards you. Handle is at 90° from the slide at around 2nd position, and pointing somewhat forwards in 3rd, so that your arm has barely moved at all between the three. Doing very fast passage work in 1st, 2nd and 3rd position then becomes effortless, with your arm barely moving at all. And your arm movements tare likely to effectively be the same or very similar to tenor.

So based on that video, Tiffany, I would say it looks like you hold a a little bit too far. Try loosening your index and middle fingers and spacing them out a bit, so that your hand isn't forming a fist, and you can use them in opposition with the thumb.