Bach 42 v. Edwards T350

[JTeagarden]

I currently own an Edwards T350, and after having the slide properly cleaned and getting an appropriately sized DE mouthpiece, have a basis for judging its merits.

While it plays in tune, and slots well, I find the sound really, really boring, the horn is simply not very satisfying behind the bell...

Appreciating that my current main axe is a mid-70s Bach 50B, and assuming I could line up and/or modify a Bach 42 with an appropriate modern rotary valve, do any of you have experience with both horns, and a judgment about the general playing/tonal qualities of both?

[WGWTR180]

Once you modify the Bach 42 you'll lose some of what makes a Bach a Bach. Edwards/Bach. Apples/Oranges at best. What you gain on one end you lose on the other. It's all about what you're willing to live with.

[JTeagarden]

I think of the "in front of the bell/behind the bell" experience as a continuum with trade-offs: You can well imagine a sound you love to hear while playing the horn that is diffuse in front of the bell, and in the abstract, being told you sound great while you experience none of that behind the bell.

Would any of us want to play a horn that's the bomb to everyone else, but that we couldn't even hear? It would be like sitting in a performing ensemble without an instrument at all.

There's some sweet spot, and right now, I find no enjoyment in playing the Edwards.

[jpwell]

Sounds like you don’t like and will sell it anyway. Modular horns are fun to dial in what you want. Take a trip to Wisconsin have them set you up. It’s a fun trip they KNOW trombones.

[CalgaryTbone]

Sounds like you don’t like and will sell it anyway. Modular horns are fun to dial in what you want. Take a trip to Wisconsin have them set you up. It’s a fun trip they KNOW trombones.

This is great advice. Alternatively, go to a big trombone event like the ITF and visit the Edwards booth. You may find that a change of bell or leadpipe will give you what you're looking for. If not, there are all of the other major manufacturers there and you can try their horns.

Jim Scott

[JTeagarden]

This would be ideal, would be superfluous w/r/t Edwards if the concensus is "good, but no magic."

[Rrova]

What Edwards components do you have?

[JTeagarden]

What Edwards components do you have?

It seems to be standard everything: yellow brass throughout, standard-weight bell.

[Rrova]

There's a video of Christian interviewing Joe Alessi. I believe its when the T396A first came out. Christian asked Joe about the claims that Edwards have a boring sound and all that. And Joe answered something like, "I think we took care of that." When I first saw that video many years ago, i was thinking that wasn't quite the answer Christian was looking for! But apparently, Joe doesn't necessarily disagree with you, at least when it comes to the pre-T396 horns.

[tbonesullivan]

Really sounds like you need a different bell on the Edwards, maybe something more off the beaten path. Bach bells are not really like anything else out there due to how they are made, treated, stretched, etc.

[harrisonreed]

The sound Joe was getting on the 396A (and still on the Shires) was bright as hell. But not in a bad way. Maybe that's what he meant.

[MrKirk]

Ive noticed listening to pros that some do indeed have what I would characterize as a mono tone or "boring" tone. They play fantastically, beautifully done musically, but it does make me wonder if their particular choice of instrument lacks some of the overtones/character that I hear from certain brands and material choices. I've noticed this type of mono tone so to speak on many different brands of trombone.

That being said, it does seem like Bach or "based on Bach" trombones have a depth or color that is missing from other instruments. It all comes down to what you like.

[Rrova]

The sound Joe was getting on the 396A (and still on the Shires) was bright as hell. But not in a bad way. Maybe that's what he meant.

Definitely possible. I personally like Edwards a lot. Most of my former teachers used Edwards and DC is an Edwards town. I think if the OP maybe tries a gold tuning slide it may make a positive difference.

[JTeagarden]

I have since determined that the avial-flow valve on my 350 is leaking! I will get this fixed and see if the horn "improves" with this repair...

Unfortunately, Edwards no longer services their horns if no longer under warranty, so need to send to a tech who knows his way around these kind of valves.

[BGuttman]

I have since determined that the avial-flow valve on my 350 is leaking! I will get this fixed and see if the horn "improves" with this repair...

Unfortunately, Edwards no longer services their horns if no longer under warranty, so need to send to a tech who knows his way around these kind of valves.

We have a number of Techs on this board who are capable of dealing with axial valves. Depending on where you are you could choose the closest one.

Just a few names:
Octavposaune (Benn Hansson) is in northwest Washington State
John Sandhagen is in the Los Angeles area
Eric Edwards is in metro Dallas Texas.

Bob Osmun has been servicing Axials since they were invented. He's in metro Boston.
One of his techs has opened a shop in Nashua, NH (I forget who)

And for the rest of you who I didn't mention, please accept my apologies and check in here.

[JTeagarden]

Thanks, my problem with brass techs is not knowing enough myself to know if someone is the right person for the job, and what job requires "mad skills," I'd have no idea what to ask someone, and whether someone who does one thing particularly well, can also do something else at a high level as well!

And so I probably end up inadvertently insulting them when I ask "can you do [insert run-of-the-mill repair here]?"

This is compounded by not being great at spotting mechanical problems, like the leaky axial-flow valve as a likely cause of the Edwards not really impressing me.

I am accomplished and fit enough to know if a horn is working well, but can only guess why one plays poorly.

[tromboneVan]

For others that want to buy a horn, new but especially with vintage, I can't emphasize enough the value in having someone like Noah at the Brass Ark, (or another trusted pro) play the horn first, if you yourself cannot test the horn out before buying. That service is built in when you buy a horn from the Brass Ark. Not everyone is as fortunate as myself to be friends with one of the best builders or techs in the industry, nor does everyone have the money to throw at rebuilding horns just to get to the same desired place where one could have started; a place where you could know from the get go you are buying something that has good continuity throughout. Time is money after all, and it's worth it to go that route, especially with something as ubiquitous as a Bach 42, which is consistently inconsistent in the quality of assembly. If you don't know what you want, go to a shop and try them first to compare.. I've owned a brand new Edwards T-350, and once upon a time a new Greenhoe Bach from the pre-Schilke Greenhoe, as well. Both were fantastic horns, and either company was capable of putting a pro-level horns in the hands of a discerning professional.. are we not attempting here to compare two leaky horns, as if that is a quality sample of the greatness of either of these models?

[JTeagarden]

Yes, I'm a case study in how not to go about it: My father always said you should either be a good example, or a terrible warning.

I enjoy the chaos of it.

[ZacharyThornton]

I have since determined that the avial-flow valve on my 350 is leaking! I will get this fixed and see if the horn "improves" with this repair...

Unfortunately, Edwards no longer services their horns if no longer under warranty, so need to send to a tech who knows his way around these kind of valves.

I just texted Christan about 10 minutes ago. He said they recommend local techs if there is one to save time and money for shipping for the customer. But they absolutely do the repairs. When I worked for Getzen/ Edwards I remember working on customer repairs and play testing them as if they were new horns. That is the level we treated them.
Christan said to call Jesse at Edwards.
I’m also interested in where you got your info?

[JTeagarden]

From Lexi Wachtveitl, Edwards' Customer Service Associate

[ZacharyThornton]

Well Christan said to contact Jesse. Maybe something was miscommunicated. Because they still do the work.

[JTeagarden]

I did, the valve will go to Edwards, thanks for the tip!

[JTeagarden]

After having the valve section serviced, thoroughly cleaning and finally figuring out how to lube the slide, and getting a corresponding Doug Elliott cup and shank for my 109 rim, the Edwards is no longer sterile sounding, at all!

I suspect part of this is adjusting from a bass bone to a .547" horn, but goes to show that it can take some time to figure out a horn, the Edwards is really a very good horn, solid all over the range.

[Posaunus]

After having the valve section serviced, thoroughly cleaning and finally figuring out how to lube the slide, and getting a corresponding Doug Elliott cup and shank for my 109 rim, the Edwards is no longer sterile sounding, at all!

I suspect part of this is adjusting from a bass bone to a .547" horn, but goes to show that it can take some time to figure out a horn, the Edwards is really a very good horn, solid all over the range.

{Aside - 109 is a huge rim for a 0.547" bore. Which DE Cup/Shank?}

[JTeagarden]

{Aside - 109 is a huge rim for a 0.547" bore. Which DE Cup/Shank?}

I will check, but this actually works quite well, no range, response, intonation or sound issues with this piece (good to a high Eb, which is about as good as I can do without some major alignment of the planets).

This is the rim I use on bass bone, and I wanted the same rim for both.

For comparison, I use a 104 rim for small- amd medium-bore horns, anything smaller and things start to back up on me.

[JTeagarden]

MB G cup, G8 shank

[Posaunus]

MB G cup, G8 shank

Perfect Cup/Shank for a 0.547" bore tenor.
Your 109 Rim would be much too large for me - I use a 102 or even a 101. (I was used to a Schilke 51.)
Different Rims for different folks.