unique pedagogy

[toneovertune]

What is the weirdest pedgogy you have ever heard? They can be super positive or they can be horrible. I am just curious what is being taught these days. Also am curious about pedagogy outside the Western culture.

[robcat2075]

weirdest?

In the 19th Century Pablo Casals had a cello teacher who insisted that he keep a book pressed under his right armpit so that his upper arm would not move while he bowed.

[ScaryTerry]

There are some great players out there who say they don’t tongue half steps anymore. They sound great doing it, but I’ve never been able to make it work for me.

[harrisonreed]

Androgogy is more effective for adults. People trying to use pedagogy on adults like they are kids is not effective. But I see people using kid methods on adults. Or vice versa.

[Wilktone]

What is the weirdest pedgogy you have ever heard? They can be super positive or they can be horrible. I am just curious what is being taught these days. Also am curious about pedagogy outside the Western culture.

These days there are lots of people offering their ideas online that are pretty weird. I recall one video I watched where the young trumpet player suggested running outside in the winter with shorts and no shirt to get good and cold to learn to play high. There's a trumpet method book that advises practicing extreme lip positions that seem designed to mess with a players chops, in my opinion. An awful lot of traditional brass pedagogy seems to come down to the "think system."

I can't really speak about non-western music pedagogy. I know there is a long and rich tradition of music teaching from India and that in many traditional African cultures music is much more participatory and everyone gets involved in music.

Androgogy is more effective for adults. People trying to use pedagogy on adults like they are kids is not effective. But I see people using kid methods on adults. Or vice versa.

Do "pedantry" and "pedagogy" have the same root origin? I don't think so, since "pedantry" seems to be derived from Latin and "pedagogy" from Greek.

"Pedagogy" is just fine to refer to teaching and learning with adults too. Yes, the term originally refers to teaching of children, but these days it is used to discuss the methods of teaching and learning in a scholarly or academic context. To further muddy the waters, descriptions of androgogy involve concepts that are frequently used when teaching children these days too (self-directed learning, internal motivation, experiential learning, etc.). Music education, as a discipline, does a pretty good job at utilizing experiential learning, for example.

Dave

[harrisonreed]

My point is that often teachers do not take into account how to teach adults. A lot of brass teaching is so "inside the box" that it's silly.

[tbdana]

So, then, how does one most effectively teach adults?

[BGuttman]

So, then, how does one most effectively teach adults?

It really depends on where they are coming from. If they already know how to read music, you have half the battle won. Just start them on a no-nonsense beginner method like Rubank or LaFosse and go on.

If they have no idea how to read music or even how to make a sound, you have to start at a much more basic level. Sad part is most suitable methods for this stage are really geared to kids and have a lot of kid melodies and funny pictures in them to interest kids. You can use these books, but you have to get the adults to live with the juvenile stuff.

[StephenK]

I have a playing colleague who is well into Kodaly teaching. I can't say I know the pros and cons, he is a bit obsessive about it. My gut feeling is that it probably suits some students much more than others. Any thoughts/experiences?

[Wilktone]

My point is that often teachers do not take into account how to teach adults. A lot of brass teaching is so "inside the box" that it's silly.

Gotcha.

Well, of course teaching adults runs the gamut.

You can have beginning adult students who are starting from scratch. My wife, for example, only began learning music as an adult and I recall her complaining that one of her teachers wanted her to learn to play "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star." I pointed out that it was a familiar song, so she would be able to hear if she was playing it wrong compared to something new to her and that it would also help her learn to get around her instrument better (folk harp and hammered dulcimer). She pretty quickly moved past that, but I would not hesitate to use sometime similar for an adult to get them started. You just need to help them make the connection to a children's song to music they are interested in performing.

You can also have comeback adult players, who already have a background in music, but are returning to music after a layoff. Or some of them may already be accomplished musicians, but learning a new instrument.

College students are another category of adult students, but they are not monolithic either. My college students range from aspiring professional musicians to students majoring in other subject but who just want to continue to have fun with music.

At the extreme opposite end of the spectrum are working professionals who may be having some specific technique issues or are working on something particularly advanced that they want help with.

I have a playing colleague who is well into Kodaly teaching. I can't say I know the pros and cons, he is a bit obsessive about it. My gut feeling is that it probably suits some students much more than others. Any thoughts/experiences?

Kodaly's methods have been around for a while and are quite effective. The El Sistema program that I administer draws a lot from it. It's designed to be used with children, so it can incorporate movement and is supposed to use folk music or other songs that are already familiar to the students. You can read up a lot about it online, if you're curious. Certain elements, such as the rhythmic solfège, can certainly be used with adult beginners as well.

Dave

[Savio]

What about the Suzuki method? It's more and more used among all instruments. Have some good exercise I use with kids. But I dont know much about the pedagogy it self.

Leif

[LeTromboniste]

College students are another category of adult students, but they are not monolithic either. My college students range from aspiring professional musicians to students majoring in other subject but who just want to continue to have fun with music.

At the extreme opposite end of the spectrum are working professionals who may be having some specific technique issues or are working on something particularly advanced that they want help with.

Yup, all of my students are from these two categories and each one has entirely different needs and learning styles. Each of them needs a really different way of teaching both in contents and methods. Definitely not monolithic!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Not pedagogy, but this situation really stuck with me…..

Many years ago, I was hired as a consultant to observe a high school marching band during their summer band camp. They wanted advice on possible ways to make their rehearsals and their marching band program more effective. Despite being an orchestral-trained musician, competitive marching band somehow became my “schtick” when I was a high school director…….that was 25+ years ago.

Anyway, one of the “brass instructors” at this school (a young guy who just completed his Music Ed Bachelors degree) was lecturing the brass section and said….. “The reason your piston valves are sticking is because you are using too much valve oil. The valve can only handle so much oil, then it will start to bind.” I had to pull him aside and show him how extra oil will simply drain out of the bottom valve cap. Thus, the stuck valves were probably the result of something else.

He received the information well and saw the lack of logic in his advice. At that point, I thought all was well. 30 minutes later, he said “Trombones! Why are spraying water on your slides? It is just going to make them rust!”

I think you can predict what my advice was when the head band director asked me later that day if I had any staffing suggestions!

[JohnL]

...a young guy who just completed his Music Ed Bachelors degree...

Which begs the question: Did he get those ideas from one of his teachers? If so, how many other former students now take them as gospel? More troubling: What other odds and ends of misinformation have they been saddled with?

[Trombo]

In the USSR, it was common to start training a trombonist with the German stile tenor in Bb (or baritone). When the child grew up and his hand could reach the 7th position, he was transferred to the trombone. The convenience was that the same mouthpiece was used, and the embouchure was already formed.
This is not so common now. Training begins immediately with the tenor trombone, and sometimes with the alto trombone, if the child is small.

It is interesting that trumpeters and French horn players in children's brass bands sometimes began to learn on the German stile alto horn in Es and then transferred to the trumpet or French horn, although the mouthpiece of the trumpet or French horn is much smaller.

[robcat2075]

It's only in later adult life that I've realized how bad the teaching was in my beginning trombone teachers.

For example, I got a failing grade at my first private lesson.

In the Summer before 6th grade they had started us with group meetings where they made sure we knew how to assemble the horn and were getting a sound out of it. There was some talk about counting but then we were on our own until school started in the Fall.

In 6th grade we got one 15-minute private lesson per week. I tried to play the page they had told us to work on over the Summer. I didn't think i was doing it well but I also wasn't sure what I should be doing.

The teacher told me I had done very poorly and "don't ever let this happen again". He sent me off with the failing mark written in the back of my method book but no explanation of what to change.

Although I got gradually better grades over the rest of the year, he would frequently have me redo some portion of the current week's material in addition to what was assigned for the next week... but did not tell me how I had gone wrong or what to do differently.

"You need to practice this part more" was all he said.

When I played it satisfactorily(?) the next week I honestly didn't know what had gotten better and he didn't explain it to me. He'd just say "next" after each line.

I'm not saying this is "unique" pedagogy, it is probably common in public schools, but it is "horrible" pedagogy the OP was inquiring about.

[Posaunus]

I'm not saying this is "unique" pedagogy, it is probably common in public schools, but it is "horrible" pedagogy the OP was inquiring about.

I hope you are not right about this. The elementary music teaching in our local public schools (by credentialed, mostly music ed majors) is MUCH better than what you experienced.

[GabrielRice]

What about the Suzuki method? It's more and more used among all instruments. Have some good exercise I use with kids. But I dont know much about the pedagogy it self.

Leif

James Markey of the Boston Symphony has gotten certified as a Suzuki instructor for trombone. https://www.markeybone.com/suzuki

[GabrielRice]

One of the great trumpet teachers of our time is Jim Pandolfi, who played in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Many trumpeters, including some of the top players currently performing and close colleagues of mine, credit him with putting their approaches to the instrument on the right track for successful careers.

Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom." He breathes mostly through his nose. He advocates against the rhythmic breath. He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom. And he's hugely entertaining, with very...colorful...language. I cannot recommend this video interview highly enough.

https://www.brasschats.com/interviews/jim-pandolfi

[Cmillar]

One of the great trumpet teachers of our time is Jim Pandolfi, who played in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Many trumpeters, including some of the top players currently performing and close colleagues of mine, credit him with putting their approaches to the instrument on the right track for successful careers.

Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom." He breathes mostly through his nose. He advocates against the rhythmic breath. He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom. And he's hugely entertaining, with very...colorful...language. I cannot recommend this video interview highly enough.

https://www.brasschats.com/interviews/jim-pandolfi

Totally agree with what you say. He's one of the true brass 'gurus'!

We (trombonists) have a lot to learn from our trumpet friends, instead of being stuck in our overwhelmingly "one or two schools of thought of trombone playing."

(I have to add, I think that Doug Elliott's ideas on brass playing are much like Pandolfi's.)

Another fine brass pedagogue right now is the trumpet player Franz Hackl (NYC/Austria). (Franz plays with 'B3', a group with Dave Taylor and John Clark (horn) and directs the Outreach Music Festival every summer in Austria, along with free-lancing in NYC with some of the best of the best)

Franz, like Doug does, gets down to what is really happening 'on the face' for trumpet players.

We all want to play our best, with a vibrant sound using techniques that aren't actually 'getting in our own way', right?

The Pandolfi video is a gem! Gotta' love him for saying it 'like it is'!

[Bach5G]

What does “on top of the sound” mean?