3rd trombone in big band

[AndrewMeronek]

Yesterday I ended up subbing on 3rd trombone for a gig. I am lately playing a lot of lead and bass trombone, so that was a nice change.

This was with a good section. I'm reminded what fun it can be to slot into this chair.

[cb56]

Back when I was playing I played 3rd in a big band. The guy playing 2nd insisted on playing 2nd but wasn't a jazzer. That meant I got most of the improv solos. Kinda cool because I rested my chops playing 3rd and could let it fly during the jazz solos.

[JohnL]

It always seemed to me that the third trombone gets a lot of the crunchy notes.

[Bach5G]

A friend who for years refused to play 3rd, said 3rd bone got the “left over notes”. Another friend tells me he can’t play low notes.

[tbdana]

I don't mind playing 3rd occasionally. It's like a day off. But I wouldn't like a steady diet of it.

One big band I play lead in, I pass parts equally so that every third tune each tenor trombone player plays a lead part. That makes people happy, it shows respect to the other players, and it gives me a chance to rest two out of every three tunes. A good deal for all.

[BGuttman]

3rd can get interesting when the parts call for the bass trombone to be 3rd and 4th is a tenor part. We had a couple of these arrangements in one Big Band where I was bass and I would swap parts with the 3rd.

[mikerspencer]

As someone who regularly chooses the third chair, I think it's a part that binds a section together. Yes, it's the part to drop if you only have three players, but it really makes a difference by linking the bass and upper tenors.

[nateaff]

I think us brass players give the inner/lower parts a short shift because so often the weakest players get those parts. The fact is sometimes those parts are in their own way more difficult to play than the lead!

[AndrewMeronek]

I think us brass players give the inner/lower parts a short shift because so often the weakest players get those parts.

At the lower levels of expertise, this is true. But once we get to being able to get gas money for gigs, this kind of goes away. At least, I think this.

As someone who regularly chooses the third chair, I think it's a part that binds a section together. Yes, it's the part to drop if you only have three players, but it really makes a difference by linking the bass and upper tenors.

Yes! This "binding" is the most fun part. We trombones can make the whole band "sing" in a way no other section can, and a big part of this comes from the 3rd bone and how we glue the sound between the bass bone and everyone else. To that end, the 3rd bone player probably needs to be the one with the best intonation.

[MStarke]

When I play big band, it's more often on lead or bass, but from time to time I also sub on 2nd or 3rd.

I do prefer lead or bass, but 2nd and 3rd can also be a nice challenge. They are not always as obvious to hear and I really have to pay attention to match the timing and style. Sometimes it's easier to set the style yourself.
And in some charts you feel relaxed and safe and then for some reason there comes just a short phrase that gets you out of the comfort zone. You shouldn't get too comfortable, especially when sight reading.

[Fidbone]

I dislike playing 3rd trombone. It’s a load of grumbling and mumbling

[EriKon]

Interesting conversation. To me the 3rd chair is probably the most difficult one to play really good. And what a difference it is if someone is playing great 3rd trombone in a bigband. You need to listen very closely to lead tb and bass tb, your pitch has to be really good as you often play those important chord tones (5ths, 7ths or 3rds) and you need a good understanding of how the section sounds in front of the bells for a good blending. And that's the hardest on 3rd because the section doesn't sound good if you're just a bit too soft and it makes the work of everyone else a lot harder. But it sounds really awful if you're too loud because nothing will be in tune. The range of volume is really small and needs to be right at it.

I've played a lot of 3rd trombone in the past. Nowadays it is most often 1st tb. Would love to play some more 3rd again sometimes if there are strong lead players.

[BGuttman]

From Alan Raph:

1st Trombone: Strong player, great high range.
2nd Trombone: Jazz Player. Great improviser
4th Trombone: Foundation of the section.
3rd Trombone: also sets up the band and drives the bus.

[JTeagarden]

When you play 3rd bone in a big band, you are Alice on the Brady Bunch...

4th trumpet is Sam the Butcher.

[tbdana]

Interesting conversation. To me the 3rd chair is probably the most difficult one to play really good. And what a difference it is if someone is playing great 3rd trombone in a bigband. You need to listen very closely to lead tb and bass tb, your pitch has to be really good as you often play those important chord tones (5ths, 7ths or 3rds) and you need a good understanding of how the section sounds in front of the bells for a good blending. And that's the hardest on 3rd because the section doesn't sound good if you're just a bit too soft and it makes the work of everyone else a lot harder. But it sounds really awful if you're too loud because nothing will be in tune. The range of volume is really small and needs to be right at it.

I've played a lot of 3rd trombone in the past. Nowadays it is most often 1st tb. Would love to play some more 3rd again sometimes if there are strong lead players.

As a 3rd trombone, having a strong lead player is the whole enchilada.

For me, the most fun thing about playing 3rd is following a good lead player; trying to be glued to him/her, being an exact copy of everything the lead is doing in terms of style, articulation, note duration, pitch, volume, and every other conceivable way. And when you have a good and very consistent lead player to follow, that can be rewarding and a ton of fun.

Of course, if you are trying to follow a bad lead player, the opposite is true. It can be very frustrating and no fun at all, and you have to resist the urge to drop an anvil on his head.

If you're on 3rd, pray for a great lead player.

[mikerspencer]

I was on third last night. One of the best moments was low octaves with the bass trombone. Eg A and pedal A. The third part functions like overtones on the bass. Brilliant fun.

[Bach5G]

N posted an ad on FB for someone to cover lead in a local big band. Positive response in, like, half an hour.

Same band, M posts an ad for someone to cover 3rd. No bites, or maybe only at the last minute and a number of people pass.

[TheConnArtist70H]

I recently posted this on my YouTube channel to point out ( funny enough ) the 3rd Chair ( Bass ) on this recording of MacArthur Park by Maynard Ferguson UK Big Band back in 1970. He only used Three Trombones at that time who
were Billy Graham ( 1st ) Chris Pyne ( 2nd ) and Albert ( Al ) Wood on 3rd. Al was a Sax Player

You can hear how much depth, and Bass that 3rd part gave in this performance. I managed to contact Al Wood around 20 years ago as I managed to find a rare copy of them playing on a UK TV Weekly show, I sent it to him.
We exchanged many e-mails, in which on one I asked what Horn he played on this recording, his response blew
me away as I'm sure he said he played an old Besson Academy 409 Bb/F Single Bass using a Bach 2g.

Very impressive sound and part indeed, I hope you agree Al
I'm trying to locate a copy of this Part, maybe I can share once I get it.

[Cmillar]

The only problem with playing 3rd trombone all the time is getting 'Mid-staff paralysis'.

(...that quote's been around awhile, but I heard it first from my teacher Dave Robbins, who in his heyday was formerly the lead trombone of choice for Harry James back in the '50s as well as for his London appearances in the '70s. Dave was the epitome of a lead player!)

Unless you're in a Pro situation, it's nice to pass the parts around in a section of equally good players, so that nobody's faces gets 'mid-staff paralysis'. Plus, everyone gets to experience playing some lead and gets more practice in playing a section as a whole.

[baBposaune]

I was on third last night. One of the best moments was low octaves with the bass trombone. Eg A and pedal A. The third part functions like overtones on the bass. Brilliant fun.

This is one of the best ways to utilize the third trombone in a big band. I know a couple of local trombone players who prefer to play 3rd for several reasons: not feeling secure in their upper register for extended lead playing, not well versed in playing improvised solos, and they like sitting next to me for the above reason. Besides unison octaves some low open fifths can be a hoot, too, like in Toshiko's "Road Time Shuffle."

[Finetales]

Every trombone chair in a big band is tons of fun, including 3rd. For one, it's called the "ride book" for a reason: you're just along for the ride, not in the spotlight and just cruising on the inner chord tones. My face feels great after a gig on 3rd. It's fun to play octaves/5ths/etc. with the bass trombone, while also playing unison high stuff with 1st and 2nd. 3rd is just a comfortable place to be.

And yes, you still have responsibilities - gotta bridge the other tenors and the bass and lock in those often-crucial chord tones. In my experience 2nd usually gets the funkiest chord tones, while 3rd is often rocking the 3rd or 7th so must be rock solid.

[ghmerrill]

If the 3rd doesn't show up for a rehearsal, and we can't get a sub, and we play "Sam's Boogie" ... it sounds like crap.

[dukesboneman]

a good friend of mine who is also a fantastic composer/arranger told me he had a conversation with Sammy Nestico one time and they both agreed that the 3rd trombone (like the 2nd tenor sax) is very important.
They are mostly the strong supporting actors that have a lot of the "Color" notes in the chord. The bridge between the 2 upper parts and the Bass.
In the WDR Big Band , Andy Hunter plays the 3rd book , but is the main trombone soloist.