Yellow or gold brass bell?

[Bassmann]

Hi there!

I am about to purchase a new bass trombone but I want to know which bell I should go for? Yellow brass bell or gold brass? Currently I have an Edwards 454 with yellow brass bell and that works fine. But I feel that the sound is really responsive.

What should I choose?

[DeCipherPositions]

Try them both out and see which one you like more!!

[NotSkilledHere]

in general, gold brass will tend to be darker and warmer. However, at louder dynamics can actually be brighter than yellow brass. it's hard to say which you should choose because you havent mentioned which brands. And even within one brand, it is not necessarily a true assumption that a gold brass bell is going to be made with the same thickness as their yellow bell, which can certainly skew results. I would highly suggest playing both bells and seeing which suites you more.

[bassbone1993]

Generally, I'd default to yellow, but there are some excellent gold bells out there

[tbdana]

I chose a gold brass bell because I feel my tone is a bit deeper and warmer than with yellow brass. Your mileage may vary. But I agree with Albert W. that it brightens up substantially when you really lean on it, though I don't know if it's brighter than yellow brass at that point. But for me and the kind of playing I do, gold brass seemed the best choice, and I'm still not sorry.

[Finetales]

I tend to prefer yellow or nickel bells. The gold bells I've had have had a warmer sound up to a certain dynamic, and then suddenly brighter than a yellow bell at the same dynamic. Whereas yellow bells feel like a linear progression from soft to loud.

That said, I've played gold bells that didn't feel that way and were just a bit warmer everywhere, like the gold bells on the Courtois .508 Xtreme and Y-Fort 763GL. So it really depends on the individual bells you're choosing between.

For what it's worth, I rarely see B454s with anything but yellow bells. But my favorite Edwards I've ever played by far had a red bell and nickel slide, and in my hands blended perfectly with a section of all-yellow Edwards, so...it depends on the individual bells, AND the player playing them.

If you feel your 454 is too bright, you might considering exploring different leadpipes or mouthpieces before you shell out for another Edwards bell.

[mikerspencer]

Try them both out and see which one you like more!!

Take a friend and a couple of blindfolds. You can test without knowing what you're playing, or the friend what they're hearing.

[LIBrassCo]

As a generalization I prefer gold, however that's a very incomplete view of the picture. There's other design choices I also make to create balance with the bell, in my case it has a thin nickel silver kranz, and a nickel silver tuning slide, which both change things a bit.

[sirisobhakya]

I have test-played some horn pairs back-to-back: Yamaha YBL-835/835G, 835D/835GD (2 pairs), Edwards B502Is with yellow and gold bell, and a Throjas with nickel silver and gold brass bell. For the 835s, I have done quite an in-depth listening and comparison. My observations are as follows:

- Sound - Gold brass bell indeed has a deeper sound, and has higher harmonics as well. However, I feel that the sound lacks something “in the middle”, and in the end it sounds “nasal” to me, for the lack of better description, especially from the front of the bell in recordings. From the back it does sound mellower and more pleasant at lower dynamics.

- Response - Gold brass bell has more resistance. This is especially true for YBL-835D vs 835GD, both pairs. It is the dealbreaker to me. For 835 vs 835G and other pairs the difference is there but not as obvious. Maybe the screw bell collar accentuates the difference. Gold brass bell also softens attacks somewhat.

- Price - Gold brass bell can be more expensive than yellow brass counterpart due to copper being more expensive than zinc. In the case of Yamaha the difference in price is around 300 USD.

- Longevity - Gold brass is softer than yellow brass, but less susceptible to red rot.

In the end I chose yellow brass. But to each their own. Take your time, bring a friend/teacher, record and listen as much as you can.

[hyperbolica]

I'd also like to weigh in for yellow. I play an 88h during the day, but at night I play bass. I've got 2 basses - one with yellow and one with gold brass. I prefer to play the yellow belled horn. Realize that my preference may or may not have anything to do with the bell material. There are a lot of other aspects to bass trombones. Often times a gold bell is offset by a nickel silver slide, or by a different bell throat, or tuning slide, or this or that. An instrument designed with a yellow bell will probably have some other aspect of the horn tuned to a warmer sound somewhere, so just looking at bell material may not get you where you want to go. Gotta look at the whole horn, really.

[TomInME]

Often times a gold bell is offset by a nickel silver slide,

or leadpipe, etc.
Bach tended to pair gold bells with nickel slides, it works. Yellow tended to be with yellow. If as a player you know you're significantly different from the center in one direction or the other, you can pair yellow with nickel to offset a dark sound, or gold with yellow to offset a bright sound.

I've got a Bach gold bell paired with a Shires lightweight yellow slide with a nickel leadpipe and the sound is fairly close to the original nickel slide but I would say a tiny bit darker and slightly harder articulations - but a good sound that I like a lot and is close to the original. Ordered a Shires nickel slide (with yellow leadpipes) in January and am hoping it balances a little better, not quite as hard on the articulations and not quite as dark. We'll see...

[tbonesullivan]

My experience is somewhat limited compared to many of the people here, as I tend to keep horns for years, so there are many I have not tried. However I seem to prefer yellow brass bells, as I like having the response more constant through dynamics, and being able to push the sound in the way I want. I feel with the higher copper content bells my sound is more pulled in the way the instrument wants to go.

For bass trombones, i have a Yamaha YBL-822G Douge Yeo model, and I don't know if it'll be a "keeper", as it really has a ton of core, and I have trouble getting it to do anything but sound orchestral. I know that is what it's designed for, but it also has a gold brass tuning slide, and an all brass outer slide. I find my YBL-830 much easier to push where I want it to go. I can do the same with my YBL-612RII, even with the red brass bell, possibly because of the all nickel outer slide.

For tenor trombones, I'm all yellow brass, except for the Kanstul 1588, which is I guess an "exception", as I wanted something that was going to be 'like an 88H but not". The rest of the stable are yellow brass bells, with a variety of outer slide materials. As always, I find myself favoring my Bach horns, maybe because I'm just so used to that type of response.

[Burgerbob]

local pedant here-

only Bach uses "real" gold brass at 80/20. Everyone else is using rose brass at 85/15. It's all marketing terms, not like it's scientific, but I do think there's a difference between the two worth noting.

Maybe since more makers use 85/15, that's the "real" gold brass!

As for the OP, it's hard to say anything less than vague generalizations, which are sometimes untrue anyway.

[tbonesullivan]

local pedant here-

only Bach uses "real" gold brass at 80/20. Everyone else is using rose brass at 85/15. It's all marketing terms, not like it's scientific, but I do think there's a difference between the two worth noting.

Maybe since more makers use 85/15, that's the "real" gold brass!

As for the OP, it's hard to say anything less than vague generalizations, which are sometimes untrue anyway.

Looks like Shires offers a "Deutsch Brass" alloy that is supposed to be between Yellow and what they call "Gold Brass", which is what they call 85% Copper, 15% Zinc brass.

[bassbone1993]

local pedant here-

only Bach uses "real" gold brass at 80/20. Everyone else is using rose brass at 85/15. It's all marketing terms, not like it's scientific, but I do think there's a difference between the two worth noting.

Maybe since more makers use 85/15, that's the "real" gold brass!

As for the OP, it's hard to say anything less than vague generalizations, which are sometimes untrue anyway.

Looks like Shires offers a "Deutsch Brass" alloy that is supposed to be between Yellow and what they call "Gold Brass", which is what they call 85% Copper, 15% Zinc brass.

I believe that's only for their tuning slides

[Macbone1]

For me the red or gold brass bells project better at forte on up, while retaining a warmer tone.

[CalgaryTbone]

I have a former student who plays a Deutsch bell. He bought it in Europe. He loves it - I played it and liked it.

Jim Scott

[RJMason]

Gold brass sounds better in the practice room and the studio. Yellow brass sounds better on the actual gig. For me at least lol

[mrdeacon]

Red brass!

[blast]

It's pretty obvious that any bell material can work as long as you understand the different characteristics. I use nickel silver, brass, gold brass, red brass and copper . It is important that you play something that fits with the rest of the section. No best, just different.

[TomInME]

Gold brass sounds better in the practice room and the studio. Yellow brass sounds better on the actual gig. For me at least lol

Agreed, which is why gold is often paired with something brighter.

[tbdana]

Gold brass sounds better in the practice room and the studio. Yellow brass sounds better on the actual gig.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sounds better." But in the abstract, considering what I think of as "better," I disagree.

[RJMason]

Gold brass sounds better in the practice room and the studio. Yellow brass sounds better on the actual gig.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sounds better." But in the abstract, considering what I think of as "better," I disagree.

What I mean is it sounds good to my ears.

Then you're on a Brazilian jazz fusion gig, the six-string bass player has two cabs, and suddenly you wish you had a little more cut, a little less color, and just a hint of clarity from a yellow bell so you can actually hear what you’re doing without depending on the eating the mic technique which makes the horn sound like you’re running it through a filter.

As stated above Bach gold brass is its own thing and with a nickel slide it balances nicely. Still, I can’t say the “Teutonic sound” description invented by Vincent Bach is quite as useful as middle of the road yellow. Keep in mind that my desert island horn is a Bach LT36BG, so I am well aware of how wonderful and versatile this set up can be within 20th century context.

Red brass though? That’s a whole other box of crayons.

But like painting, sometimes a few primary colors do the trick. Too many and you can just end up with brown. Add other musicians and when trombone is your job it’s often easier to say: “These are my three colors. This is how I use them.”

If it’s your band, your gig, your music, not just freelance chaos, use whatever you want.

[walldaja]

I have a Shires Q and a gold and yellow bell. With a convertible horn you can zero out differences between different horns because the horn is the same except the bell. Love the color I can get with my gold bell but articulation with the yellow is so much tighter. Less chance of cracking a note too

[LIBrassCo]

local pedant here-

only Bach uses "real" gold brass at 80/20. Everyone else is using rose brass at 85/15. It's all marketing terms, not like it's scientific, but I do think there's a difference between the two worth noting.

Maybe since more makers use 85/15, that's the "real" gold brass!

As for the OP, it's hard to say anything less than vague generalizations, which are sometimes untrue anyway.

There's other sources for 80/20 bells besides Bach, just not in the US.

[GabrielRice]

Less chance of cracking a note too

If your yellow bell fits more easily on the valve section with no adjustment than your gold bell, that is probably the reason for this, not the alloy.

[walldaja]

Gold bell actually fits easier than the gold. Tech had to finesse the yellow one a bit.

[BrianJohnston]

I tend to prefer the sounds of yellow bells to gold bells… but I’ve heard some players sound absolutely amazing on gold bells, usually when they’re paired with Nickel slides.

[Leanit]

Try them both out and see which one you like more!!

Take a friend and a couple of blindfolds. You can test without knowing what you're playing, or the friend what they're hearing.

This. Nothing else matters.

You might surprise yourself and/or save some money.

[TomInME]

But do it in a good room, with them sitting in the audience. What you hear close up in a small room isn't what the audience hears.