Teaching trombone to small children

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:34 pm

Since Euphony has resurrected this thread:

I did a demonstration on trombone for some 3-6 year olds (with learning disabilities).

I brought in an extra mouthpiece and let everybody take a stab at blowing.

About half the students (and half the teachers - there were 4) tried to swallow the mouthpiece or treat it like it was a clarinet or saxophone. The other half got one (and in one case 2) different notes.

I wouldn't expect to teach these kids; they have another 5 or more years to go before they start. But maybe I planted a seed in one of them...

ttf_Steven · Post by **ttf_Steven** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:54 pm

Quote from: Euphonywho on Feb 03, 2009, 01:46PMAlso, finding the best way to explain to students the importance of doing the basic warm-ups every day/session. A lot of elementary (4th-6th) don't want to play the "easy long tones and boring lip slurs".

If you manage to get this figured out, I'd love to hear it. I guess my question is, at what age can a student be expected to understand the importance of such a daily regimen, or even the importance of daily practice.

If you haven't seen it yet, check out the reggae backing for the Remington long tones that Walt posted to the Beginners board. It's fun.

Quote from: Euphonywho on Feb 03, 2009, 01:46PMThe biggest issue I have with my studio is finding music that is at the right level, challenging, but still fun. I have only been teaching for a few months (with a substantial enough group of students to finally get a feel for an average response and feeling), so probably, or hopefully, after putting in some time on the internet and sibelius I can get a good collection going, this problem will go away.

I try to do the same for my daughter. When she's bored with her assignments, I like having songs available to her. If you have "The Real Book" or something similar, there are plenty of songs that can be used as are, and others that need transposing or other minor changes to make them good for young players (and of course plenty that are too tricky). We'll also pick out and score melodies from songs she likes. Having real songs to play, easy, pretty songs to play, really helps her play more musically.

There are probably several songs in wikifonia you could use, and bonezone has a section on "Simple Songs".

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:16 pm

It seems to me baby teeth could very well be a factor in playing on brass for young children. I would wait untill their adult teeth com in so articulation will not be a problem. My nine year old sister has problems articulating because of her teeth, Although I am sure there are excepts to this.

ttf_AxSlinger7String · Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:51 am

To the problem of having beginner level material that still has musical meaning there is a piece by Norman Bolter free for download through OTJ meant just for this purpose:

http://www.trombone.org/jfb/joyinbeingable.asp

I know he has also written some other beginner pieces, but I'm not sure when/where they may be published.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:17 am

Thanks for the link! Norman Bolter must have some very good beginners? It did look some difficult in my eyes? I will try to play it myself. Maybe its a very nice solo piece.

Leif

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:00 pm

My advice is to start small students on a strait trombone and have them use a DEG slide extender. This device is not a great one, but it will give short students the ability to reach 6th and 7th positions. If a student has already started out on trombone without the use of the extender, the switch to the extender is difficult but possible. Starting a small student out on an F attatchment is not wise. Small students have small hands, and they can develop injuries. Another option would be to try the Yamaha 350c. It is a small bore trombone that has only six positions and a Whole step ascending valve. If money is of no factor then this horn would we a wise choice.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:11 am

One thing I do pretty early on is teach simple rhythm studies and show them aurally and visually how four sixteenth notes and two eighth notes must fit into the same "time-in-space" as a quarter note.

Once the students see and hear this concept, you can then teach them about staccato, regular and legato quarter notes.

Seeing the visual piece of this makes a quick impact primarily as the societal norms have our "kids" watching/seeing a "whole bunch" a la YouTube, Facebook, Skype, Video Games and so on.

They also "get" the rhythm thing much faster than memorizing the notes/positions and it allows them to see and hear some fairly immediate progress.

I have written some simple but progressive rhythm studies over the years (anybody can do this, by the way

) using only the note "F" within the staff.

I've even used them when subsitute teaching elementary and junior high lessons/bands.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:59 pm

Quote from: brucejackson on Jan 23, 2007, 03:07PMI'm interested in this as well. Starting with an alto trombone sounds like a good idea but every alto I ever tried was not easy to play. Problems with intination, eveness of partials, stuffiness, shrill sound etc..

Personally I started on baritone horn. My sophmore year in high school I played valve trombone in jazz ensemble then I switched to slide my Junior year.

My 4 year old daughter is obviously too small to play trombone (even alto I think) but she can make a note on my trombone when I hold it for her. She is in Suzuki violin and that is our main priority for now but I might try her on a short coronet or pocket trumpet.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:39 am

I know this is an old thread but it's still very interesting. I don't think it's a problem at all to start playing the trombone at an early age. My mother (Astrid Nøkleby) has found a great way of doing this. It is kind of a trombone version of the suzuki violin. The kids are starting on alto trombones, but reads and plays like it is a tenor. That means that when the kids play what they call a Bb it sounds like a Eb. You learn to play this way and at ca. 11 years age the kids change to tenor trombones. Then they can read bass clef and all the posisions are the same. The only thing that is different is what the notes sounds like(a Bb is really a Bb now). This method is called "Rett på musikken" (straight on to music) and it works very well. The kids have individual lessons and group lessons each week. Personally I started playing on an alto when I was 4 years old and the change to tenor wasn't a problem at all. Now I am 15 and because I started playing that early I have never had serious trouble with my playing. This is how far I have come now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R36eVGHHNE&feature=plcp
I also noticed earlier in this thread someone who mentioned this system in Sweden, but originally it comes from my mother here in Norway, but some swedes have done the same later. My mother has also tried teaching the kids in reading treble clef so they could play parts in the marching bands, but she found out that it was very confusing when they started learning bass clef. Now she has got around 40 trombone pupils and most of us have started on the alto trombone.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:50 pm

***
"Also, finding the best way to explain to students the importance of doing the basic warm-ups every day/session. A lot of elementary (4th-6th) don't want to play the "easy long tones and boring lip slurs".
***
If you manage to get this figured out, I'd love to hear it. I guess my question is, at what age can a student be expected to understand the importance of such a daily regimen, or even the importance of daily practice.
***

These questions also relate to how frustration affects the student's motivaiton, and prospect for sticking with the trombone over time.

My son started trombone when he was seven. He's fifteen now and doing very well on it. I started playing when I was forty-eight due to early retirement. So now I use on myself the motivational techniques which I used with him when he was younger.

Music is for fun. If you have fun, you will keep playing. From a behavoirism standpoint, a student can make music with one note and time (rhythm). For tenor trombone the first notes are probably F and Bb. Forget about the slide. If a student is challenged to make up their own 'song' with one or two notes, they will. They don't even have to know the names of those notes. Let the musicality do the teaching.

You can say to a student, 'Play me any little tune you can just make up, and I'll show how we can write it down.'

The student maintains their motivation because they are getting to create rather than being told to do something that is painful and difficult. A student who works the bone in first position across two partials will eventually get bored enough to want to try a higher partial or move the slide to another position. That is natural. Let boredom be the motivator.

To maintain motivation to do warm-ups, use the same principle. Just do a random set of notes/partials/articulation in first position. Do it twice in first position. Then do the same in second position twice. And so on. By necessity (out of boredom) the student stretches his/her range and flexibility.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:20 pm

I get lot of ideas just by reading what all write here. Children want to learn, keep in mind they are easy to let down.

I have a few rules for my self. They are not for all teachers around.

For me as a teacher:

1. Be my self. Always....
2. Tell the truth, but with very understandable words.
3. Don't tell to much, keep it simple and clear.
4. Have a goal to make the child have a good time...
5. Make my self updated, in good shape, and learn as much as possible about my trombone/music

How to know the child:

1. Be there 100% with all my consentration or try to do
2. Break the ice, talk about other things than trombone. Its not waist of time...
3. Talk a lot with the parents, about everything.
4. When they come in the door, be polite and careful. We never know what day they had.

How I teach:

1. Know what I can teach and what I cant teach.
2. Don't be afraid to ask other teachers.
3. Be consequent, don't suddenly change.
4. Don't fall in the trap to do all the lesson like a routine, give my self a goal to teach the children something new everyday.

OK this is just some few thoughts. After teaching children for many years I know one thing. Be involved, be interested, listen and understand every child as good we can. But its impossible to be perfect. Same as playing trombone. Where is the fun? The fun is trying everyday...that's the fun!

Leif

ttf_JP · Post by **ttf_JP** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:49 pm

Excellent post Leif

The only things I would add is be organized:

Have your handouts (warm-up sheets, books to use, etc.) ready. Do not waste time looking through your stacks of music for the thing you want for that student...have it ready.

Teach the student how to practice: playing slow, repeating passages correctly, how to structure a practice session. It is often not what to learn, but how to learn.

I really like what you posted, my friend.

ttf_KevinHornbuckle · Post by **ttf_KevinHornbuckle** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:18 pm

Very sound guidelines, Leif.
At the moment my son is working through Ravel, Mozart, and Wagner for an audition coming up in a few days. His teachers have been as you describe, and its is only motivation that gets a student through this difficult material. Learning how to learn is the biggest part. But I think the kids do not understand that until much later because it is so abstract. Kindness and encouragement go so far with kids. My son is very fortunate to have had skillful teachers.

ttf_benjamintrb · Post by **ttf_benjamintrb** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:41 am

Wow, what a resource this thread has been to me... Thank you to all the great players/teachers who have contributed.

I have a specific issue that might have been posted about already, I apologize if it is repetitive...

I currently have a 7 yr old student on a pbone. He is doing well, and can support the instrument very easily so that is not an issue. He actually has a decent range, being able to play his chromatic scale from 1-6"ish" low Bb to F, F to C, and Bb to F.

The issue is his teeth, clamping down while playing/buzzing. I have encountered this with beginner players before (6th grade or so), but have had good success getting them to open up. The 7yr old not so much though.

We work with a breathing tube (piece of water line, PVC) to try and instill the idea of open breathing, and we actively work on oral shape. Imitating "OH" and "HO" and going straight to the MP/horn. We have had very brief periods of success but it has not stuck with him out of the lesson room...

Any suggestions?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:25 am

I like using metaphors with my younger students. Have you tried asking him to play as if there is a hot potato inside his mouth (like one of those mini ones)? Or an egg, especially if the egg is tall rather than wide? If this does work, you could trying switching the syllable to "AW" I find this helps to keep the tongue out of the way more so than 'OH". Is he listening to recordings of professional trombonists? Having a clear concept of a beautiful sound is extremely important, otherwise, you're trying to hit a bullseye with your eyes closed. Good luck!!

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:57 am

Quote from: kmshields on Jun 22, 2014, 05:25AMI like using metaphors with my younger students. Have you tried asking him to play as if there is a hot potato inside his mouth (like one of those mini ones)? Or an egg, especially if the egg is tall rather than wide? If this does work, you could trying switching the syllable to "AW" I find this helps to keep the tongue out of the way more so than 'OH". Is he listening to recordings of professional trombonists? Having a clear concept of a beautiful sound is extremely important, otherwise, you're trying to hit a bullseye with your eyes closed. Good luck!!
I spent about a month doing an hour-long routine every day playing with my teeth closed (touching) so I could get used to playing up and down the horn better without having to drop my jaw so much. I believe that brass players should play with their jaws as closed as possible while still achieving a good sound. And I think most players can eventually achieve a GREAT sound with jaws much more closed than they would think. I see the methodology of "dropping the jaw" as responsible for a lot of brass failures, no chops, frustration, quitting. How can a player get really great compression in an embouchure when the mechanics of an open jaw dictate that the lips are further apart than they might otherwise be? And...if there's a big gap between the tips of the teeth, what will support the lips (especially trumpet)?

Just food for thought.

ttf_patrickosmith · Post by **ttf_patrickosmith** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:05 am

I'm surprised no one mentioned the importance of a good air supply with small children. Very important for beginners and advanced players alike: take a good breath before each phrase. It should be instilled as a natural habit. I am not saying to overfill with air either. This is most important for small children because they have smaller lungs than adults. Just refill your air before you are too close to running out. The child will attempt to squeeze the last bit of air just to complete a phrase. Well that is extremely bad. To develop a good sound and to develop the embouchure one needs air to the lips. Before one has the feeling they are squeezing out the air, just stop, skip some notes if playing in a group, take a breath, and resume. This is what Crisafulli taught me in my first few lessons as a beginner at age 12.

ttf_patrickosmith · Post by **ttf_patrickosmith** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:05 am

I'm surprised no one mentioned the importance of a good air supply with small children. Very important for beginners and advanced players alike: take a good breath before each phrase. It should be instilled as a natural habit. I am not saying to overfill with air either. This is most important for small children because they have smaller lungs than adults. Just refill your air before you are too close to running out. The child will attempt to squeeze the last bit of air just to complete a phrase. Well that is extremely bad. To develop a good sound and to develop the embouchure one needs air to the lips. Before one has the feeling they are squeezing out the air, just stop, skip some notes if playing in a group, take a breath, and resume. This is what Crisafulli taught me in my first few lessons as a beginner at age 12.