So I feel lame asking this as I played trombone from 7th through college, but I am now teaching a combined low brass class and I am having some buzzing range issues.
The tbns and btns can all roughly match an F (this is day 3 of buzzing) but they cannont seem to get higher or lower.
The tubas are currently on a 2nd line Bb. For some reason they can all do what I call a "horse" buzz without the mouthpiece but stick the mouthpiece up and they are buzzing up with the tbns and btns.
I've demonstrated on both a tbn mpc and tuba mpc the buzzes I'm after.
We've done Sirens, Bottle Rockets (low to high), and Dive Bombers (high to low) in an effort to get some range going. However, it doesn't seem to be working.
I've talked about embouchure/aperture and air direction in relation to low and high buzzing. (Firmer for high, more relaxed for low... blow up for low, middle for middle, down for high, etc.)
I've currently hit a road block on what else to tell them. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
buzzing issues
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ttf_anonymous
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ttf_savio
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buzzing issues
Hi sfatbn07
I also buzz with my kids I teach. I have a book where there are "buzz drawings" Its some thick lines that is supposed to be the buzz. Some goes in a straight line and then we just try to buzz a straight note. Some lines goes straight then goes upwards, some downwards. Some is supposed to be a firecar or a police car.
Then this book have lines combined with real note values. Like hole notes, half notes and so on. So they learn the note values at the same time.
This is some we always do before playing the horn. I also play this lines and note values on the horn with them.
This seem to be a good routine for the kids and funny enough they like to do this stuff. And its good for me too. This don't take so much time either. Just 5 minutes or so. I have also given each kid homework to draw their own buzz drawings. I ask them to use some colour and we put the drawings up on the wall. Then we buzz them whenever we want.
I think the kids like it because we are always counting when doing them. So they get a early feel of doing something together in time.
Leif
I also buzz with my kids I teach. I have a book where there are "buzz drawings" Its some thick lines that is supposed to be the buzz. Some goes in a straight line and then we just try to buzz a straight note. Some lines goes straight then goes upwards, some downwards. Some is supposed to be a firecar or a police car.
Then this book have lines combined with real note values. Like hole notes, half notes and so on. So they learn the note values at the same time.
This is some we always do before playing the horn. I also play this lines and note values on the horn with them.
This seem to be a good routine for the kids and funny enough they like to do this stuff. And its good for me too. This don't take so much time either. Just 5 minutes or so. I have also given each kid homework to draw their own buzz drawings. I ask them to use some colour and we put the drawings up on the wall. Then we buzz them whenever we want.
I think the kids like it because we are always counting when doing them. So they get a early feel of doing something together in time.
Leif
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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buzzing issues
I am very picky about the way I teach buzzing, because if you do it correctly it trains the right muscles, in the right position. If you do it differently, there is a definite risk of training the wrong muscles or the wrong position of them.
Some people fall into the right position quite naturally, but most don't. And the "right position" changes with strength development.
Here's the safest way to get people to buzz with a good formation:
Pull you bottom lip in and other the bottom teeth. Hold it there while letting the top lip overlap as if saying "M" while almost biting your bottom lip. Blow air and you should get a buzz, usually around a middle Bb.
I do not recommend buzzing low notes or even as low as an F in the staff. It starts to use the wrong muscles. Good exercises are holding notes steady with a "clean" airy-soundng buzz, and doing sirens or tunes, as long as they stay above middle F.
Some people fall into the right position quite naturally, but most don't. And the "right position" changes with strength development.
Here's the safest way to get people to buzz with a good formation:
Pull you bottom lip in and other the bottom teeth. Hold it there while letting the top lip overlap as if saying "M" while almost biting your bottom lip. Blow air and you should get a buzz, usually around a middle Bb.
I do not recommend buzzing low notes or even as low as an F in the staff. It starts to use the wrong muscles. Good exercises are holding notes steady with a "clean" airy-soundng buzz, and doing sirens or tunes, as long as they stay above middle F.
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ttf_savio
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buzzing issues
That's interesting Doug, thanks for the tips. I can understand why you recommend not going under the regular F. For some kids the embouchure just fall apart and they have no control over where the lips are or what muscles to use. For some they keep the setting and can buzz down to Bb without falling apart.
I have one question for you. When I have a 10 years old beginner I tell him not to do so much. Because some kids have a belief they have to do so much strange things with their lips. I tell them just to put them natural together and make the buzz. For most people this works. And often the note is about F or a bit higher. I will try your method from now but for most kids the lips goes to the position you told very natural. But for some other kids the lips will be about the same position or the underlip goes to fare out, and a lower note is getting out. OK I see it now, then just tell them to have the underlip a little bit more in? Hope you understand my long bad explanation. If the lips and embouchure is firm and they buzz downwords without any problem then its OK to go under F?
In the very beginning I give them an F in my buzz but I don't stress so much what pitch they do. The first couple of lesson my goal is not an exact pitch but just to keep a note straight. It make their embouchure some stable in the beginning.
Well, Doug this interest me a little because I feel the first lessons and buzz is important. That's what we teachers work with every year. When it goes OK its easy for a teacher, could you tell more about what problems that often goes wrong and how to deal with it? For my self that would be interesting to learn about. Its often there we struggle as teachers and are not sure what to do. Sorry the long post but this is what I feel is important to a teacher. We all know we can avoid a lot of problems if the start is as right as possible for a beginner.
Leif
I have one question for you. When I have a 10 years old beginner I tell him not to do so much. Because some kids have a belief they have to do so much strange things with their lips. I tell them just to put them natural together and make the buzz. For most people this works. And often the note is about F or a bit higher. I will try your method from now but for most kids the lips goes to the position you told very natural. But for some other kids the lips will be about the same position or the underlip goes to fare out, and a lower note is getting out. OK I see it now, then just tell them to have the underlip a little bit more in? Hope you understand my long bad explanation. If the lips and embouchure is firm and they buzz downwords without any problem then its OK to go under F?
In the very beginning I give them an F in my buzz but I don't stress so much what pitch they do. The first couple of lesson my goal is not an exact pitch but just to keep a note straight. It make their embouchure some stable in the beginning.
Well, Doug this interest me a little because I feel the first lessons and buzz is important. That's what we teachers work with every year. When it goes OK its easy for a teacher, could you tell more about what problems that often goes wrong and how to deal with it? For my self that would be interesting to learn about. Its often there we struggle as teachers and are not sure what to do. Sorry the long post but this is what I feel is important to a teacher. We all know we can avoid a lot of problems if the start is as right as possible for a beginner.
Leif
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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buzzing issues
The biggest problem is when the bottom lip flips out. You need to learn to control the muscles that hold the bottom lip in, and pulling it in over your bottom teeth is the best way to do that.
I would say aim for middle Bb, stay away from F, even if everything is firm. After 10 years of successful buzzing you can feel free to buzz whatever you want.
I would say aim for middle Bb, stay away from F, even if everything is firm. After 10 years of successful buzzing you can feel free to buzz whatever you want.
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ttf_timothy42b
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buzzing issues
My interpretation from reading this thread was that the OP was talking about mouthpiece buzzing and that Doug and savio were talking about free buzzing.
Might make a difference?
Might make a difference?
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ttf_anonymous
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buzzing issues
"Enquiring minds want to know." Really! This is an area I'm just beginning to explore.
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ttf_LLCJ103
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buzzing issues
Interesting. I am hoping that I fall in the "right" category for buzzing. I do alot of it, have been working on getting a good buzz 
Not that kind of buzz! Seriously, I have gotten a few comments on how well my buzz sounded, looked etc.. I am taking it that I am doing the right things. I read your post carefully Doug. My teacher recommends the sirens and buzzing tunes as well. He's a bass trombone player so he is buzzing low stuff all of the time. He can buzz seriously high stuff as well. I don't really mess too much with real low stuff or real high stuff, mid range buzzing,with a good robust buzz sound.
Good information though, thanks.
Not that kind of buzz! Seriously, I have gotten a few comments on how well my buzz sounded, looked etc.. I am taking it that I am doing the right things. I read your post carefully Doug. My teacher recommends the sirens and buzzing tunes as well. He's a bass trombone player so he is buzzing low stuff all of the time. He can buzz seriously high stuff as well. I don't really mess too much with real low stuff or real high stuff, mid range buzzing,with a good robust buzz sound.Good information though, thanks.
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ttf_ddickerson
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buzzing issues
I start out free buzzing, then mpc buzzing, everyday before picking up the horn, so I'm interested in how much time should be spent on this, in general?
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ttf_anonymous
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buzzing issues
I have never been taught specific mouth placement for my buzzing beyond doing it the same way i buzz on my horn. My teacher has always stressed the importance of free and mpc buzzing, one of his favorite quotes is "if you can't buzz the music correctly you can't play the music correctly."
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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buzzing issues
5 minutes of freebuzzing is plenty. There's no reason to do any more than that, and doing too much can definitely be a problem. Think of it as lifting weights. You only do one particular exercise for 3 sets of 10, then you rest and move on to something else. Doing the same exercise over and over will make your muscles overbalanced in one area to the detriment of other things. In terms of strength building, 5 minutes of buzzing is equal to at least 30 minutes of playing.
I'm a little concerned about LLCJ103 aiming for "a good robust buzz sound." Buzzing loudly is not good; I like to keep it soft. The benefits of buzzing are largely from improving response, and that doesn't happen if you buzz loudly or use too much air. Try to become efficiernt by buzzing with a minimum of air, and holding as long as possible with a steady soft buzz - this improves control.
I'm a little concerned about LLCJ103 aiming for "a good robust buzz sound." Buzzing loudly is not good; I like to keep it soft. The benefits of buzzing are largely from improving response, and that doesn't happen if you buzz loudly or use too much air. Try to become efficiernt by buzzing with a minimum of air, and holding as long as possible with a steady soft buzz - this improves control.
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ttf_Russ White
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buzzing issues
Doug - what are your thoughts on mouthpiece buzzing? It's not something I've seen or heard you comment on. Is there a place for it?
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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buzzing issues
I don't do it and I don't use it in my teaching. I use techniques that I feel are much more valuable.
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ttf_svenlarsson
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buzzing issues
There are many thoughts and ideas about buzzing.
A few of them are represented among these forums members.
I dont want to start a new discussion; I just want to give my thoughts.
I know some musicians who can buzz all over the map, resonant and artistic.
Sometimes they are very good players, sometimes not.
I know some extremely good players who cant buzz at all.
I know some who only buzz without the mpc, some buzz only in visualizes, some buzz only in the mpc.
Some do it very good and it seems to work on their horns as well.
Some does not succeed as buzzing artists that well.
Many of these people are very sure about the benefits from buzzing their way, very often I believe them as they are good players. Sometimes I am not so sure.
I do use some buzzing in my own teaching, but very sparingly, and not to every one.
For what I have experienced, buzzing is a technique that is good for some, not so good for others.
I could write a whole lot more about buzzing, but I rather not as the risk of misunderstanding information that is written is so big.
A few of them are represented among these forums members.
I dont want to start a new discussion; I just want to give my thoughts.
I know some musicians who can buzz all over the map, resonant and artistic.
Sometimes they are very good players, sometimes not.
I know some extremely good players who cant buzz at all.
I know some who only buzz without the mpc, some buzz only in visualizes, some buzz only in the mpc.
Some do it very good and it seems to work on their horns as well.
Some does not succeed as buzzing artists that well.
Many of these people are very sure about the benefits from buzzing their way, very often I believe them as they are good players. Sometimes I am not so sure.
I do use some buzzing in my own teaching, but very sparingly, and not to every one.
For what I have experienced, buzzing is a technique that is good for some, not so good for others.
I could write a whole lot more about buzzing, but I rather not as the risk of misunderstanding information that is written is so big.
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ttf_Russ White
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buzzing issues
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 03, 2010, 11:34PMI don't do it and I don't use it in my teaching. I use techniques that I feel are much more valuable.
Enough said. thank You!!
Enough said. thank You!!
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ttf_anonymous
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buzzing issues
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 03, 2010, 11:34PMI don't do it and I don't use it in my teaching. I use techniques that I feel are much more valuable.
Hi, Doug,
Can you elaborate as to why you don't use M/P buzzing and what are the other techniques you use instead?
Thanks!
Hi, Doug,
Can you elaborate as to why you don't use M/P buzzing and what are the other techniques you use instead?
Thanks!
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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buzzing issues
I use ALL of my other techniques instead. Sorry, I can't write a book here about every way that I teach each individual. It's all about form, and making sure that form is correct for each individual's physical makeup, and that it makes playing as efficient as possible in every way. That seems kind of broad, but it's actually very specific to the individual because everybody's different.
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ttf_savio
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buzzing issues
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 04, 2010, 01:52PMI use ALL of my other techniques instead. Sorry, I can't write a book here about every way that I teach each individual. It's all about form, and making sure that form is correct for each individual's physical makeup, and that it makes playing as efficient as possible in every way. That seems kind of broad, but it's actually very specific to the individual because everybody's different.
I read about people that take lessons with you Doug Elliot. Even today I got a nice story here in the forum from a member about how you can see what each individual needs. Embouchure and buzzing is what I an many feel insecure about. I know you cant tell so much because all questions here is individuals asking. But wish you somehow could do some of your experience out maybe in a book or article.
Anyway I think we all feel that the center of technique and how to play trombone, is much about embouchure and how we buzz. The buzz is what makes the sound after all. The better we master it the better we express music. So I'm interested in this for my own playing and also because I teach trombone.
Leif
I read about people that take lessons with you Doug Elliot. Even today I got a nice story here in the forum from a member about how you can see what each individual needs. Embouchure and buzzing is what I an many feel insecure about. I know you cant tell so much because all questions here is individuals asking. But wish you somehow could do some of your experience out maybe in a book or article.
Anyway I think we all feel that the center of technique and how to play trombone, is much about embouchure and how we buzz. The buzz is what makes the sound after all. The better we master it the better we express music. So I'm interested in this for my own playing and also because I teach trombone.
Leif
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ttf_anonymous
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buzzing issues
Neither of my teachers advocated buzzing. (Emory Remington and Robert Harper). I don't "buzz" and I can still play most anything. Weird, huh.
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ttf_svenlarsson
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buzzing issues
Derek Watkins (fantastic lead trumpeter in London) told me : I can´t buzz a f***ing tone but I can play all the tones on my trumpet
Buzzing is not a must to reach mastery of brass playing.
Buzzing is not a must to reach mastery of brass playing.
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ttf_sabutin
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buzzing issues
"Buzzing"...freebuzzing, cutoff rim buzzing, m'pce buzzing...works if done correctly. Any and all other fairly well recognized approaches to embouchure development and brass playing also work. The key phrase here is "if done correctly."
Long story very short about all buzzing approaches...do not buzz anything that you do not almost immediately relate to the horn. Not until you get very, very good at the relating part, anyway. And the reverse. Free buzzes that come off of playing the horn, m'pce or cutoff rim will tend to be more "correct"...more well related...to how you play than will buzzes that are started w/out any reference to the rim at all. Particularly...do not free buzz w/out constantly relating it to the rim of whatever m'pce you are using. Cutoff rim, m'pce, or m'pce in the horn. It's the relationship between the freebuzz and the rim that allows some people to, as Doug says, immediately get it right...the relationship between their buzz and the rim. Some people have it immediately and some others do not. It can be learned, though.
I say "it" can be learned, but in reality it should be stated as "they" can be learned. The relationships between buzzing and the rim...or more complicated yet, multiple rims if you are a doubler who uses different rims...are different for different people through multiple ranges.
I devote perhaps 10% of my practice time to buzzing approaches. Maybe 20% of my teaching time and a great deal of my book, "Time, Balance And Connections" are also buzzing-related.
For more info, read my article BUZZ ON, BUZZ OFF. THEY BOTH WORK.
Later...
S.
Long story very short about all buzzing approaches...do not buzz anything that you do not almost immediately relate to the horn. Not until you get very, very good at the relating part, anyway. And the reverse. Free buzzes that come off of playing the horn, m'pce or cutoff rim will tend to be more "correct"...more well related...to how you play than will buzzes that are started w/out any reference to the rim at all. Particularly...do not free buzz w/out constantly relating it to the rim of whatever m'pce you are using. Cutoff rim, m'pce, or m'pce in the horn. It's the relationship between the freebuzz and the rim that allows some people to, as Doug says, immediately get it right...the relationship between their buzz and the rim. Some people have it immediately and some others do not. It can be learned, though.
I say "it" can be learned, but in reality it should be stated as "they" can be learned. The relationships between buzzing and the rim...or more complicated yet, multiple rims if you are a doubler who uses different rims...are different for different people through multiple ranges.
I devote perhaps 10% of my practice time to buzzing approaches. Maybe 20% of my teaching time and a great deal of my book, "Time, Balance And Connections" are also buzzing-related.
For more info, read my article BUZZ ON, BUZZ OFF. THEY BOTH WORK.
Later...
S.
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ttf_JP
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buzzing issues
Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 05, 2010, 03:28AMDerek Watkins (fantastic lead trumpeter in London) told me : I can´t buzz a f***ing tone but I can play all the tones on my trumpet
Buzzing is not a must to reach mastery of brass playing.
I agree with that. I think the smaller the mpc the more attention players spend their time buzzing. Which is why trumpet players (and wannabee trombone/trumpet players) make it such a big deal. I think it helps understanding how to approach the higher partials (6th and above) and I think it helps train the ear to play in tune. I do about 3 minutes a day, usually in the car to wake up my chops. If I don't, I don't miss it.
Not nearly as important to me as good solid sounding long tones for my arsenal.
Buzzing is not a must to reach mastery of brass playing.
I agree with that. I think the smaller the mpc the more attention players spend their time buzzing. Which is why trumpet players (and wannabee trombone/trumpet players) make it such a big deal. I think it helps understanding how to approach the higher partials (6th and above) and I think it helps train the ear to play in tune. I do about 3 minutes a day, usually in the car to wake up my chops. If I don't, I don't miss it.
Not nearly as important to me as good solid sounding long tones for my arsenal.
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ttf_sabutin
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buzzing issues
Quote from: JP on Dec 05, 2010, 07:05PMI agree with that. I think the smaller the mpc the more attention players spend their time buzzing. Which is why trumpet players (and wannabee trombone/trumpet players) make it such a big deal. I think it helps understanding how to approach the higher partials (6th and above) and I think it helps train the ear to play in tune. I do about 3 minutes a day, usually in the car to wake up my chops. If I don't, I don't miss it.
Not nearly as important to me as good solid sounding long tones for my arsenal.
"...the smaller the mpc the more attention players spend their time buzzing?"
Yeah?
Why do you think that?
I use it on tubas, bass trombones, orchestral trombones, .525 trombones, .508 trombones and .500 trombones...all w/very typical m'pce sizes for their bores. If I had a .485, an alto or or a contrabass I'd use it on them, too.
Why?
Because it works, of course.
Duh.
Sven wrote:
QuoteBuzzing is not a must to reach mastery of brass playing.
To which you replied:
QuoteI agree with that.
So far so good.
But then you go off on some half-baked tangent about "...why trumpet players (and wannabee trombone/trumpet players) make [buzzing] such a big deal."
You say:
Quote...it helps understanding how to approach the higher partials (6th and above) and I think it helps train the ear to play in tune.
Why would you say it only helps the higher partials? I know from years of experience that buzzing is just as valuable down through the pedal ranges, and I can prove it. When I have trouble in the sub (8VB)
range...on tuba particularly, going down into the pedals of my EEb...buzzing (freebuzzing particularly) is what helps me find my balances down there. Every time. Same deal on the 
area on large tenors and basses.
Where did you get this idea that it's only for upper ranges and small m'pces?
It is absolutely and totally without merit.
Bet on it.
And if it "...helps train the ear to play in tune"...the chop, really because the ear doesn't play anything, it just directs...then does that mean that lower notes don't need to be played in tune or that they are somehow easier to play in tune?
Please.
Make some sense.
S.
Not nearly as important to me as good solid sounding long tones for my arsenal.
"...the smaller the mpc the more attention players spend their time buzzing?"
Yeah?
Why do you think that?
I use it on tubas, bass trombones, orchestral trombones, .525 trombones, .508 trombones and .500 trombones...all w/very typical m'pce sizes for their bores. If I had a .485, an alto or or a contrabass I'd use it on them, too.
Why?
Because it works, of course.
Duh.
Sven wrote:
QuoteBuzzing is not a must to reach mastery of brass playing.
To which you replied:
QuoteI agree with that.
So far so good.
But then you go off on some half-baked tangent about "...why trumpet players (and wannabee trombone/trumpet players) make [buzzing] such a big deal."
You say:
Quote...it helps understanding how to approach the higher partials (6th and above) and I think it helps train the ear to play in tune.
Why would you say it only helps the higher partials? I know from years of experience that buzzing is just as valuable down through the pedal ranges, and I can prove it. When I have trouble in the sub (8VB)
range...on tuba particularly, going down into the pedals of my EEb...buzzing (freebuzzing particularly) is what helps me find my balances down there. Every time. Same deal on the area on large tenors and basses.Where did you get this idea that it's only for upper ranges and small m'pces?
It is absolutely and totally without merit.
Bet on it.
And if it "...helps train the ear to play in tune"...the chop, really because the ear doesn't play anything, it just directs...then does that mean that lower notes don't need to be played in tune or that they are somehow easier to play in tune?
Please.
Make some sense.
S.
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ttf_savio
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buzzing issues
I told before I never been good at buzzing and are happy to read that buzzing is maybe not a "must" for all. I can of course not play everything but my sound is what people always tell is OK. I also buzz about 3 min. or so before I start on the horn. And like JP some days nothing. It seems to work OK for me. It seems to me we all have different needs?
Leif
Leif
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ttf_RedHotMama
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buzzing issues
Suggestion for improving the buzzing-
Don't do it.
I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.
Playing low brass is about playing low brass.
Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.
If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!
Take care,
B0B
Don't do it.
I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.
Playing low brass is about playing low brass.
Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.
If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!
Take care,
B0B
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ttf_JP
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buzzing issues
Quote from: B0B on Dec 07, 2010, 05:37PMSuggestion for improving the buzzing-
Don't do it.
I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.
Playing low brass is about playing low brass.
Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.
If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!
Take care,
B0B
I agree with that, I think the smaller the mpc, the more attention you spend to "buzzing". The routines I do, I spend about 3 minutes (usually in the car) on the mpc.
With students, if they are having problems finding upper reg notes, I add a little mpc stuff. But not much.
Don't do it.
I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.
Playing low brass is about playing low brass.
Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.
If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!
Take care,
B0B
I agree with that, I think the smaller the mpc, the more attention you spend to "buzzing". The routines I do, I spend about 3 minutes (usually in the car) on the mpc.
With students, if they are having problems finding upper reg notes, I add a little mpc stuff. But not much.
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ttf_sabutin
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
Quote from: JP on Dec 07, 2010, 06:58PMI agree with that, I think the smaller the mpc, the more attention you spend to "buzzing". The routines I do, I spend about 3 minutes (usually in the car) on the mpc.
With students, if they are having problems finding upper reg notes, I add a little mpc stuff. But not much.
Unbelievable.
Just clomp clomp clomping on along regardless of what anyone else says.
I personally have only one thing left to say besides what I said above...aimed at those young players who are trying to figure things out.
When you meet people who only have one lick...teachers, other players, whosever...beware. They will run their Johny One-Note game on you if you allow them to do so. Look at their credentials, first of all. Who they have played with, what their real work and teaching experience has been. Then...listen to their playing. It is almost always as one-dimensional as their teaching. Usually safe but sorry.
You'll often find them in positions of authority...teachers, administrators, bosses...yes (GASP!!!) even "moderators." They fall upwards in the system because they mostly don't really work at what they are supposed to do so they have plenty of time to politic and busybody. But by and large they have nothing to offer but their own self-aggrandizement.
Ignore them.
If you really, truly want to learn how to play, learn to ignore them.
You be bettah off.
Bet on it.
Much bettah off.
Later...
S.
With students, if they are having problems finding upper reg notes, I add a little mpc stuff. But not much.
Unbelievable.
Just clomp clomp clomping on along regardless of what anyone else says.
I personally have only one thing left to say besides what I said above...aimed at those young players who are trying to figure things out.
When you meet people who only have one lick...teachers, other players, whosever...beware. They will run their Johny One-Note game on you if you allow them to do so. Look at their credentials, first of all. Who they have played with, what their real work and teaching experience has been. Then...listen to their playing. It is almost always as one-dimensional as their teaching. Usually safe but sorry.
You'll often find them in positions of authority...teachers, administrators, bosses...yes (GASP!!!) even "moderators." They fall upwards in the system because they mostly don't really work at what they are supposed to do so they have plenty of time to politic and busybody. But by and large they have nothing to offer but their own self-aggrandizement.
Ignore them.
If you really, truly want to learn how to play, learn to ignore them.
You be bettah off.
Bet on it.
Much bettah off.
Later...
S.
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ttf_savio
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
Sam, isn't it so there is different needs for different individuals. Many here tells about a "none buzz" approach. Use what works, eh?
For me it works OK without buzzing. When I start in the morning, my warm up is to check that things works. I check my sound, range, dynamic, legato, attack and so on. At my age I never do the same. I check, then I do more of what I feel I need that day. If I feel really bad one morning and my lips feels like "meetbolls", I buzz a little. If everything feels OK, I just play on the horn.
This tread make me understand there is different approaches. We have to find what works for us. For most of us a good teachers is needed. Then we also learn to teach some our self. Well, an open mind is needed for people like me that want to learn more. So I think this tread is interesting. But keep it friendly maybe? I seen many pro with very different approaches, but at the same time very friendly. Easier to find information and understand this way?
Leif
For me it works OK without buzzing. When I start in the morning, my warm up is to check that things works. I check my sound, range, dynamic, legato, attack and so on. At my age I never do the same. I check, then I do more of what I feel I need that day. If I feel really bad one morning and my lips feels like "meetbolls", I buzz a little. If everything feels OK, I just play on the horn.
This tread make me understand there is different approaches. We have to find what works for us. For most of us a good teachers is needed. Then we also learn to teach some our self. Well, an open mind is needed for people like me that want to learn more. So I think this tread is interesting. But keep it friendly maybe? I seen many pro with very different approaches, but at the same time very friendly. Easier to find information and understand this way?
Leif
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ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
Quote from: savio on Dec 08, 2010, 01:04AMSam, isn't it so there is different needs for different individuals. Many here tells about a "none buzz" approach. Use what works, eh?
That is not the problem, savio.
The problem is bad information about buzzing. Information that was repeated after my thorough answer to it when it was posted he first time w/mo reference whatsoever to any opposition to the idea of "It's only good for high partials and smaller m'pces."
QuoteFor me it works OK without buzzing.
Great. Try everything; use what works.
But if you are going to "try everything", and least try it right.
And if someone is going to post ridiculous pseudo-"information" as fact and I know damned well that it is not fact, I'm going to call him on it. If he continues to publicly clomp clomp clomp through the minefields of self-deception after being called on it, I am going to call him on it even harder.
That's the way it works.
The free competition of ideas.
What if he had said that the earth is flat? With a straight face. Like he meant it as something less than a joke. And then I posted a picture of the globe. And then he again posted that the earth is flat without even referring to the globe image.. If this was something like a geological website, he'd be laughed right off the site if not summarily banned.
Here?
He's a moderator.
As I posted above...unbelieveable.
Sorry savio...that's where it's at here.
Deal wid it.
S.
That is not the problem, savio.
The problem is bad information about buzzing. Information that was repeated after my thorough answer to it when it was posted he first time w/mo reference whatsoever to any opposition to the idea of "It's only good for high partials and smaller m'pces."
QuoteFor me it works OK without buzzing.
Great. Try everything; use what works.
But if you are going to "try everything", and least try it right.
And if someone is going to post ridiculous pseudo-"information" as fact and I know damned well that it is not fact, I'm going to call him on it. If he continues to publicly clomp clomp clomp through the minefields of self-deception after being called on it, I am going to call him on it even harder.
That's the way it works.
The free competition of ideas.
What if he had said that the earth is flat? With a straight face. Like he meant it as something less than a joke. And then I posted a picture of the globe. And then he again posted that the earth is flat without even referring to the globe image.. If this was something like a geological website, he'd be laughed right off the site if not summarily banned.
Here?
He's a moderator.
As I posted above...unbelieveable.
Sorry savio...that's where it's at here.
Deal wid it.
S.
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ttf_savio
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
I read some more in your articles and book and tried it some more. To my surprise I did it better than I thought I could do. To put the mouthpiece loose in the receiver and then take it slowly out works OK for my. Surprise. I got the same pitch when moving mouthpiece out. Surprise NR. 2 was I did it very well from Bb 
up to 
octave up !! But low F 
and pedal Bb, only air came out. No sound. But buzzing from low F and down have always been difficult.
Then I tried only mouthpiece and take it slowly away and back. This did not work so good high up but now suddenly the low register did work. I got the same pitch even on the pedals. But the lips point much more "out" when I did the low pedals. So maybe I shouldn't do it down there? A bigger/wider area of my lips did vibrate than I normally do on the horn. But it did feels good.
I have to tell I did warm up before trying. After this the embouchure felt OK and the sound was maybe with more core. Hard to say so maybe.
If I need to do this everyday I'm not sure Sam? Get stronger? Maybe I get the same effect if I do all correct and wisely on the horn?
Leif
up to octave up !! But low F and pedal Bb, only air came out. No sound. But buzzing from low F and down have always been difficult.Then I tried only mouthpiece and take it slowly away and back. This did not work so good high up but now suddenly the low register did work. I got the same pitch even on the pedals. But the lips point much more "out" when I did the low pedals. So maybe I shouldn't do it down there? A bigger/wider area of my lips did vibrate than I normally do on the horn. But it did feels good.
I have to tell I did warm up before trying. After this the embouchure felt OK and the sound was maybe with more core. Hard to say so maybe.
If I need to do this everyday I'm not sure Sam? Get stronger? Maybe I get the same effect if I do all correct and wisely on the horn?
Leif
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ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
buzzing issues
I had decided to take a posting break, but I cannot sit back and read this thread without saying what works in my experience.
I have never had any problems with free-buzzing... quite the opposite, in fact. I do it in the car, during practice... anytime. It only seems to make my playing more secure.
I think this is because I basically have a self-supporting embouchure... that is, it functions as a vibration scource either by itself, or with my mouthpiece resting on it.
It works in such a way that I can play, say a high Bb and remove the mouthpiece whilst continuing to buzz that note.... annoys the heck out of students
If a player's embouchure has developed using the mouthpiece rim as part of the means by which the lips are held in place, then they will only be able to free-buzz in a way that is different to their normal with-instrument embouchure.
I really don't want to get into a debate about the benefits or otherwise of free-buzzing with a different set-up to your normal one... I am not in a personal position to make that judgement... but I can say that I am very happy to be playing with a self-supporting set-up.... it makes the physical act of playing pretty easy... and when I was a kid, and seemingly playing differently, I had real problems with the upper register.
I am doing some major rebuilding work with a student at the moment... a great musician who has had all sorts of production and register problems... and I have had him develop a whole new free-buzz based way of lip vibrating, away from the instrument..... he has a perfectly controlled free-buzz from pedal Bb to high Bb, with none of the old issues..... we just need to transfer it across the the horn now.
Free-buzzing can be a great tool.....
Just use it with care and take good instruction if you have questions.
Chris Stearn
I have never had any problems with free-buzzing... quite the opposite, in fact. I do it in the car, during practice... anytime. It only seems to make my playing more secure.
I think this is because I basically have a self-supporting embouchure... that is, it functions as a vibration scource either by itself, or with my mouthpiece resting on it.
It works in such a way that I can play, say a high Bb and remove the mouthpiece whilst continuing to buzz that note.... annoys the heck out of students
If a player's embouchure has developed using the mouthpiece rim as part of the means by which the lips are held in place, then they will only be able to free-buzz in a way that is different to their normal with-instrument embouchure.
I really don't want to get into a debate about the benefits or otherwise of free-buzzing with a different set-up to your normal one... I am not in a personal position to make that judgement... but I can say that I am very happy to be playing with a self-supporting set-up.... it makes the physical act of playing pretty easy... and when I was a kid, and seemingly playing differently, I had real problems with the upper register.
I am doing some major rebuilding work with a student at the moment... a great musician who has had all sorts of production and register problems... and I have had him develop a whole new free-buzz based way of lip vibrating, away from the instrument..... he has a perfectly controlled free-buzz from pedal Bb to high Bb, with none of the old issues..... we just need to transfer it across the the horn now.
Free-buzzing can be a great tool.....
Just use it with care and take good instruction if you have questions.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_svenlarsson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm
buzzing issues
My earlier post can be missunderstood to mean that I do not free buzz, I do and some, not all, of my students do.
For me buzzing works in the whole range that I need to play in and more.
For me the buzzing embouchure should be as close to the playing setting as possible.
I do not fold my lower lip over the teeth.
I do buzz the low range, pedals and lower. I firmly believe it is good for me, and those students who can use buzzing as a tool.
Still, many good players don´t buzz. We are all different both in body and mind.
For me buzzing works in the whole range that I need to play in and more.
For me the buzzing embouchure should be as close to the playing setting as possible.
I do not fold my lower lip over the teeth.
I do buzz the low range, pedals and lower. I firmly believe it is good for me, and those students who can use buzzing as a tool.
Still, many good players don´t buzz. We are all different both in body and mind.
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
buzzing issues
I'll add a little, too...
For me, the most valuable thing said in this thread is what Sam stated: "do not buzz anything that you do not almost immediately relate to the horn." This is what makes all the difference to me.
I don't do much free buzzing and only a little on the m'piece alone - mostly I used an extra m'piece in a spare leadpipe. I'll often hold it in my right hand and my horn in the left, and then play switching back and forth without putting the leadpipe down. This lets me very clearly hear and feel the differences that I am trying to eliminate... maybe I have trouble with short term muscle menory, but it's the immediacy of the comparison that gives me the most information.
Cheers, Jon.
For me, the most valuable thing said in this thread is what Sam stated: "do not buzz anything that you do not almost immediately relate to the horn." This is what makes all the difference to me.
I don't do much free buzzing and only a little on the m'piece alone - mostly I used an extra m'piece in a spare leadpipe. I'll often hold it in my right hand and my horn in the left, and then play switching back and forth without putting the leadpipe down. This lets me very clearly hear and feel the differences that I am trying to eliminate... maybe I have trouble with short term muscle menory, but it's the immediacy of the comparison that gives me the most information.
Cheers, Jon.
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ttf_Doug Elliott
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
buzzing issues
Quote from: jmdhuse on Dec 08, 2010, 09:55AMSam stated: "do not buzz anything that you do not almost immediately relate to the horn."
There are at least 2 problems with that.
Upstream (low placement) embouchures shouyld never try to relate their buzz to their playing, because doing so will encourage their mouthpiece placement toward a place it doesn't belong.
And many "beginning buzzers" simply do not have the muscles delevoped yet to be able to buzz the way they play. Those are the players who need to "fold the lower lip over the teeth," as Sven put it, until they have developed the required control that they don't need to do that any more.
As with with many aspects of playing, how one person is able to do it is not necessarily the same as the steps needed to get to that point.
My students come to me mostly because they have problems that were not solved by other teachers - often, many other well known teachers. Almost every one tells me they can't freebuzz and have never been able to. When they leave my studio they are able to buzz, in a way that may not be directly related to their playing, but it is heading in the right direction and will eventually become related. Except for the upstream players, who can make good use of freebuzzing but it will never be directly related to the way they play.
There are at least 2 problems with that.
Upstream (low placement) embouchures shouyld never try to relate their buzz to their playing, because doing so will encourage their mouthpiece placement toward a place it doesn't belong.
And many "beginning buzzers" simply do not have the muscles delevoped yet to be able to buzz the way they play. Those are the players who need to "fold the lower lip over the teeth," as Sven put it, until they have developed the required control that they don't need to do that any more.
As with with many aspects of playing, how one person is able to do it is not necessarily the same as the steps needed to get to that point.
My students come to me mostly because they have problems that were not solved by other teachers - often, many other well known teachers. Almost every one tells me they can't freebuzz and have never been able to. When they leave my studio they are able to buzz, in a way that may not be directly related to their playing, but it is heading in the right direction and will eventually become related. Except for the upstream players, who can make good use of freebuzzing but it will never be directly related to the way they play.
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ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
Quote from: savio on Dec 08, 2010, 04:07AMI read some more in your articles and book and tried it some more. To my surprise I did it better than I thought I could do.
This is what I have been saying, savio. It's really not that hard to do, it's just...new to people. I teach 10 year olds using the exact same approaches and they have no trouble with them at all. Why? Because they don't know that they're not supposed to be able to do them.
QuoteTo put the mouthpiece loose in the receiver and then take it slowly out works OK for my. Surprise. I got the same pitch when moving mouthpiece out. Surprise NR. 2 was I did it very well from Bb up to octave up !! But low F and pedal Bb, only air came out. No sound. But buzzing from low F and down have always been difficult.
Everyone has their own setup, savio, and almost everyone has ranges where as Chris says above they have "a self-supporting embouchure." The approach that I am teaching aims to find and then strengthen that kind of embouchure in every range and then connect whatever changes occur in the physicality of those setups through the ranges.
"Time, Balance and Connections-A Universal Theory Of Brass Relativity" is the name of my book.
"Balance?" A self-supporting embouchure is balanced by its very nature. Different ranges require different balances for different people because of each individual's physical makeup. Size of lips, size of teeth, size of tongue and internal resonance chamber, angles of possble jaw motion...all affect the system.
"Connections?" Through those changes however they may most naturally occur.
"Time?" That's how the connections are best practiced and learned.
Result?
A universal approach to brass embouchure.
Bet on it.
QuoteThen I tried only mouthpiece and take it slowly away and back. This did not work so good high up but now suddenly the low register did work. I got the same pitch even on the pedals. But the lips point much more "out" when I did the low pedals. So maybe I shouldn't do it down there? A bigger/wider area of my lips did vibrate than I normally do on the horn. But it did feels good.
Precisely.
"New" is not "bad." Same thing in the middle and upper ranges. Find how your embouchure best works in any and every range and then find ways to connect those settings.
This works, savio. I do not know how else to say it. It is a different approach; it takes courage to really try something new and it is not the simplest way to learn how to play a brass instrument. It requires thought and hard, consistent work. But the rewards can be quite interesting.
I just got a call to play tuba w/the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra at the NEA Jazz Masters Awards Ceremony in early January. Gil Evans music, much of which goes down into the sub-8VB range. I am going to Cuba Monday w/the Chico O'Farrill band and I am bringing my .500 bore/11C-ish setup primarily because I play several extended Tommy Dorsey/Jimmy Knepper-influenced melodic features with the band (My influences in this style, not Chico's.), music where I regularly play melodic, good-sounding 
and above on the end of the pieces. (When I am in good shape. When I'm not? UH oh!!! Discretion is the better part of valor.) Monday night I played some really challenging bass trombone music w/the fine NYC composer Josh Shneider. Two days before the Lincoln Center thing I will be playing a rehearsal of some new music with the wonderful composer/arranger Marty Sheller, 5 horns (Alto + tenor sax, 2 trumpets + trombone) and a rhythm section where the trombone is used as a bass instrument, a jazz soloist and as a 3rd sax/3rd tpt. 4G-ish m'pce on a trigger tenor, for sure. That is a snapshot of my career, really. Good players regularly shake their heads at me and say something like "I don't know how you can do that!", and I equally regularly tell them that it can be learned if one is willing to give it a good, solid try. Most opt out. So it goes. But it can be learned. Not only that, but it can be learned on one instrument. You don't need to be a doubler. I play from the triple pedals through double Bb and above on every tenor that I practice, every day. A little less high range on the bass and tuba, but then again, a better sounding low range. How? I used these principles, and I worked my ass off.
QuoteI have to tell I did warm up before trying. After this the embouchure felt OK and the sound was maybe with more core. Hard to say so maybe.
I'll bet hat it did have more core. You got more chop vibrating, and it was in better balance. The very definition of "core." Now...will it last? Not unless you practice the approach until it becomes part of your real playing system.
QuoteIf I need to do this everyday I'm not sure Sam? Get stronger? Maybe I get the same effect if I do all correct and wisely on the horn?
Leif
If you practice it well and consistently...through the changes that will possibly be discouraging to you (just as new equipment has some downtime before you really learn it)...then yes, it will help your playing. Will you get the same effect if you "do all correct and wisely on the horn?" Yes. provided you can figure out exactly what is "correct and wise" on the horn. For you. This approach shows you the most efficient way to play in given ranges. Physically. For your own physicality. Then...if you are "correct and wise" in your practice of it, of course...it teaches you the most efficient way(s) to connect those efficient settings.
i mean....it's all hit or miss, savio. With this approach there are simply more possibilities for hits and less opportunities for misses than with approaches that are relatively undefined in their definitions of "correctly and wisely." That's the strength of the Reinhardt approach as well. It eliminates many of the possibilities for wrong turns and makes what you are doing more efficient. Without a system that does this, learning how to play a brass instrument can be like trying to negotiate an almost infinite maze, one that changes from day to day as your body and the music that you are asked to play go through their own changes.
Good hunting.
Later...
Sam
This is what I have been saying, savio. It's really not that hard to do, it's just...new to people. I teach 10 year olds using the exact same approaches and they have no trouble with them at all. Why? Because they don't know that they're not supposed to be able to do them.
QuoteTo put the mouthpiece loose in the receiver and then take it slowly out works OK for my. Surprise. I got the same pitch when moving mouthpiece out. Surprise NR. 2 was I did it very well from Bb
up to octave up !! But low F and pedal Bb, only air came out. No sound. But buzzing from low F and down have always been difficult.Everyone has their own setup, savio, and almost everyone has ranges where as Chris says above they have "a self-supporting embouchure." The approach that I am teaching aims to find and then strengthen that kind of embouchure in every range and then connect whatever changes occur in the physicality of those setups through the ranges.
"Time, Balance and Connections-A Universal Theory Of Brass Relativity" is the name of my book.
"Balance?" A self-supporting embouchure is balanced by its very nature. Different ranges require different balances for different people because of each individual's physical makeup. Size of lips, size of teeth, size of tongue and internal resonance chamber, angles of possble jaw motion...all affect the system.
"Connections?" Through those changes however they may most naturally occur.
"Time?" That's how the connections are best practiced and learned.
Result?
A universal approach to brass embouchure.
Bet on it.
QuoteThen I tried only mouthpiece and take it slowly away and back. This did not work so good high up but now suddenly the low register did work. I got the same pitch even on the pedals. But the lips point much more "out" when I did the low pedals. So maybe I shouldn't do it down there? A bigger/wider area of my lips did vibrate than I normally do on the horn. But it did feels good.
Precisely.
"New" is not "bad." Same thing in the middle and upper ranges. Find how your embouchure best works in any and every range and then find ways to connect those settings.
This works, savio. I do not know how else to say it. It is a different approach; it takes courage to really try something new and it is not the simplest way to learn how to play a brass instrument. It requires thought and hard, consistent work. But the rewards can be quite interesting.
I just got a call to play tuba w/the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra at the NEA Jazz Masters Awards Ceremony in early January. Gil Evans music, much of which goes down into the sub-8VB
range. I am going to Cuba Monday w/the Chico O'Farrill band and I am bringing my .500 bore/11C-ish setup primarily because I play several extended Tommy Dorsey/Jimmy Knepper-influenced melodic features with the band (My influences in this style, not Chico's.), music where I regularly play melodic, good-sounding and above on the end of the pieces. (When I am in good shape. When I'm not? UH oh!!! Discretion is the better part of valor.) Monday night I played some really challenging bass trombone music w/the fine NYC composer Josh Shneider. Two days before the Lincoln Center thing I will be playing a rehearsal of some new music with the wonderful composer/arranger Marty Sheller, 5 horns (Alto + tenor sax, 2 trumpets + trombone) and a rhythm section where the trombone is used as a bass instrument, a jazz soloist and as a 3rd sax/3rd tpt. 4G-ish m'pce on a trigger tenor, for sure. That is a snapshot of my career, really. Good players regularly shake their heads at me and say something like "I don't know how you can do that!", and I equally regularly tell them that it can be learned if one is willing to give it a good, solid try. Most opt out. So it goes. But it can be learned. Not only that, but it can be learned on one instrument. You don't need to be a doubler. I play from the triple pedals through double Bb and above on every tenor that I practice, every day. A little less high range on the bass and tuba, but then again, a better sounding low range. How? I used these principles, and I worked my ass off.QuoteI have to tell I did warm up before trying. After this the embouchure felt OK and the sound was maybe with more core. Hard to say so maybe.
I'll bet hat it did have more core. You got more chop vibrating, and it was in better balance. The very definition of "core." Now...will it last? Not unless you practice the approach until it becomes part of your real playing system.
QuoteIf I need to do this everyday I'm not sure Sam? Get stronger? Maybe I get the same effect if I do all correct and wisely on the horn?
Leif
If you practice it well and consistently...through the changes that will possibly be discouraging to you (just as new equipment has some downtime before you really learn it)...then yes, it will help your playing. Will you get the same effect if you "do all correct and wisely on the horn?" Yes. provided you can figure out exactly what is "correct and wise" on the horn. For you. This approach shows you the most efficient way to play in given ranges. Physically. For your own physicality. Then...if you are "correct and wise" in your practice of it, of course...it teaches you the most efficient way(s) to connect those efficient settings.
i mean....it's all hit or miss, savio. With this approach there are simply more possibilities for hits and less opportunities for misses than with approaches that are relatively undefined in their definitions of "correctly and wisely." That's the strength of the Reinhardt approach as well. It eliminates many of the possibilities for wrong turns and makes what you are doing more efficient. Without a system that does this, learning how to play a brass instrument can be like trying to negotiate an almost infinite maze, one that changes from day to day as your body and the music that you are asked to play go through their own changes.
Good hunting.
Later...
Sam
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ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 08, 2010, 10:35AMThere are at least 2 problems with that.
Upstream (low placement) embouchures shouyld never try to relate their buzz to their playing, because doing so will encourage their mouthpiece placement toward a place it doesn't belong.
---snip---
Possibly. But with the addition of rim-based buzzing (rim buzzing, m'pce buzzing and playing the horn as we normally play it, m'pce in) and never overdoing the freebuzzing w/out relating it to the rim in some maner, wrong m'pce setting problems are largely ameliorated.
It's all a compromise between and among the physical setup, the rim, the resistance provided by the equipment and the resistance that the player provides with his soft machine from the lips right on back into the resonance chamber. I probably have not seen as many students as have you on a regular basis...most of my teaching is one-off as I travel or they come to NYC...but I have yet to see a fairly well developed brass player on any instrument who could not at least begin to freebuzz, relate it to the rim/m'pce/horn and gain something from the experience.
Young kids? I stick with m'pce buzzing until they are ready for freebuzzing.
That's what I have seen, anyway.
Sam
Upstream (low placement) embouchures shouyld never try to relate their buzz to their playing, because doing so will encourage their mouthpiece placement toward a place it doesn't belong.
---snip---
Possibly. But with the addition of rim-based buzzing (rim buzzing, m'pce buzzing and playing the horn as we normally play it, m'pce in) and never overdoing the freebuzzing w/out relating it to the rim in some maner, wrong m'pce setting problems are largely ameliorated.
It's all a compromise between and among the physical setup, the rim, the resistance provided by the equipment and the resistance that the player provides with his soft machine from the lips right on back into the resonance chamber. I probably have not seen as many students as have you on a regular basis...most of my teaching is one-off as I travel or they come to NYC...but I have yet to see a fairly well developed brass player on any instrument who could not at least begin to freebuzz, relate it to the rim/m'pce/horn and gain something from the experience.
Young kids? I stick with m'pce buzzing until they are ready for freebuzzing.
That's what I have seen, anyway.
Sam
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ttf_B0B
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
buzzing issues
To clarify a bit here-
Buzzing, especially free buzzing, is very much a double edged sword.
Used properly, removing the trombone and sometimes the mouthpiece can help refine what the body's job is in the equation. To do that however, you must have a strong concept of what the body's job actually is first. Take away the horn, take away the mouthpiece, and ask someone to practice buzzing who really doesn't know how to play... To call that a can of worms would be an understatement. The limitations and resistance of the horn and mouthpiece are often what help young players bring their bodies in line. They work within those limitations to improve their sound, range, and ability, and slowly figure out how to make an embouchure. Slowly figure out how to breathe and blow. Without those limitations... it's easy to begin to experiment with things you could never do on a horn. It's easy to form an embouchure that has nothing to do with trombone playing. It's easy to do everything wrong.
Can buzzing help- even beginners?
Yes, It can.
I've found it can be a wonderful help when a kid just isn't getting a buzz. His sound is very airy, he has no range, and he doesn't know what to do. At that point I have the kid slightly cover the end of the mouthpiece with a finger to get some resistance, and then we work on how to make a sound. I've only found that helpful in small groups or individual however, and done in large groups it's akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Can buzzing help much more-abled players?
Yes, it can.
Done incorrectly it can also make them much less-abled players. Again, it's a double edged sword. Use it well, and it can help. Use it poorly and you'll cut yourself.
In the original post, sfatbn07 indicated attempting to get very basic things from buzzing and communicate very basic ideas. Reminds me of a brass methods class honestly. And if they are beginners or close to it, then by all means teach them like beginners. Drop the theory crap, drop the high level exercises, drop trying to teach them like you're taught, and stop trying to teach them like college brass players. Instead use simple, but effective instructions. If something doesn't work, rather then trying it again and again until it does or they quit, drop it and try something else. Slowly build in any higher level theory. Don't just start off with it. Instead try to position it so that at the end of your class they have a basic understanding of the fundamentals that they should do. Slowly, gradually, and connect it with what they are playing.
Believe it or not, these are common mistakes- especially from college players. They spend so much time learning advanced methods, yet still do not understand them enough to in turn make them basic again.
Something to remember with any teaching: You can help AND you can harm. You can even do both at the same time. Choose your path carefully.
Take care,
B0B
Buzzing, especially free buzzing, is very much a double edged sword.
Used properly, removing the trombone and sometimes the mouthpiece can help refine what the body's job is in the equation. To do that however, you must have a strong concept of what the body's job actually is first. Take away the horn, take away the mouthpiece, and ask someone to practice buzzing who really doesn't know how to play... To call that a can of worms would be an understatement. The limitations and resistance of the horn and mouthpiece are often what help young players bring their bodies in line. They work within those limitations to improve their sound, range, and ability, and slowly figure out how to make an embouchure. Slowly figure out how to breathe and blow. Without those limitations... it's easy to begin to experiment with things you could never do on a horn. It's easy to form an embouchure that has nothing to do with trombone playing. It's easy to do everything wrong.
Can buzzing help- even beginners?
Yes, It can.
I've found it can be a wonderful help when a kid just isn't getting a buzz. His sound is very airy, he has no range, and he doesn't know what to do. At that point I have the kid slightly cover the end of the mouthpiece with a finger to get some resistance, and then we work on how to make a sound. I've only found that helpful in small groups or individual however, and done in large groups it's akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Can buzzing help much more-abled players?
Yes, it can.
Done incorrectly it can also make them much less-abled players. Again, it's a double edged sword. Use it well, and it can help. Use it poorly and you'll cut yourself.
In the original post, sfatbn07 indicated attempting to get very basic things from buzzing and communicate very basic ideas. Reminds me of a brass methods class honestly. And if they are beginners or close to it, then by all means teach them like beginners. Drop the theory crap, drop the high level exercises, drop trying to teach them like you're taught, and stop trying to teach them like college brass players. Instead use simple, but effective instructions. If something doesn't work, rather then trying it again and again until it does or they quit, drop it and try something else. Slowly build in any higher level theory. Don't just start off with it. Instead try to position it so that at the end of your class they have a basic understanding of the fundamentals that they should do. Slowly, gradually, and connect it with what they are playing.
Believe it or not, these are common mistakes- especially from college players. They spend so much time learning advanced methods, yet still do not understand them enough to in turn make them basic again.
Something to remember with any teaching: You can help AND you can harm. You can even do both at the same time. Choose your path carefully.
Take care,
B0B
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ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
Quote from: B0B on Dec 08, 2010, 03:47PMTo clarify a bit here-
Buzzing, especially free buzzing, is very much a double edged sword.
Used properly, removing the trombone and sometimes the mouthpiece can help refine what the body's job is in the equation. To do that however, you must have a strong concept of what the body's job actually is first. Take away the horn, take away the mouthpiece, and ask someone to practice buzzing who really doesn't know how to play... To call that a can of worms would be an understatement. The limitations and resistance of the horn and mouthpiece are often what help young players bring their bodies in line. They work within those limitations to improve their sound, range, and ability, and slowly figure out how to make an embouchure. Slowly figure out how to breathe and blow. Without those limitations... it's easy to begin to experiment with things you could never do on a horn. It's easy to form an embouchure that has nothing to do with trombone playing. It's easy to do everything wrong.
Can buzzing help- even beginners?
Yes, It can.
I've found it can be a wonderful help when a kid just isn't getting a buzz. His sound is very airy, he has no range, and he doesn't know what to do. At that point I have the kid slightly cover the end of the mouthpiece with a finger to get some resistance, and then we work on how to make a sound. I've only found that helpful in small groups or individual however, and done in large groups it's akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Can buzzing help much more-abled players?
Yes, it can.
Done incorrectly it can also make them much less-abled players. Again, it's a double edged sword. Use it well, and it can help. Use it poorly and you'll cut yourself.
In the original post, sfatbn07 indicated attempting to get very basic things from buzzing and communicate very basic ideas. Reminds me of a brass methods class honestly. And if they are beginners or close to it, then by all means teach them like beginners. Drop the theory crap, drop the high level exercises, drop trying to teach them like you're taught, and stop trying to teach them like college brass players. Instead use simple, but effective instructions. If something doesn't work, rather then trying it again and again until it does or they quit, drop it and try something else. Slowly build in any higher level theory. Don't just start off with it. Instead try to position it so that at the end of your class they have a basic understanding of the fundamentals that they should do. Slowly, gradually, and connect it with what they are playing.
Believe it or not, these are common mistakes- especially from college players. They spend so much time learning advanced methods, yet still do not understand them enough to in turn make them basic again.
Something to remember with any teaching: You can help AND you can harm. You can even do both at the same time. Choose your path carefully.
Take care,
B0B
And you, sir, appear to be something of a double-edged poster.
How do you reconcile the post above with this one?
QuoteSuggestion for improving the buzzing-
Don't do it.
I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.
Playing low brass is about playing low brass.
Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.
If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!
Take care,
B0B
Buzzing, especially free buzzing, is very much a double edged sword.
Used properly, removing the trombone and sometimes the mouthpiece can help refine what the body's job is in the equation. To do that however, you must have a strong concept of what the body's job actually is first. Take away the horn, take away the mouthpiece, and ask someone to practice buzzing who really doesn't know how to play... To call that a can of worms would be an understatement. The limitations and resistance of the horn and mouthpiece are often what help young players bring their bodies in line. They work within those limitations to improve their sound, range, and ability, and slowly figure out how to make an embouchure. Slowly figure out how to breathe and blow. Without those limitations... it's easy to begin to experiment with things you could never do on a horn. It's easy to form an embouchure that has nothing to do with trombone playing. It's easy to do everything wrong.
Can buzzing help- even beginners?
Yes, It can.
I've found it can be a wonderful help when a kid just isn't getting a buzz. His sound is very airy, he has no range, and he doesn't know what to do. At that point I have the kid slightly cover the end of the mouthpiece with a finger to get some resistance, and then we work on how to make a sound. I've only found that helpful in small groups or individual however, and done in large groups it's akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Can buzzing help much more-abled players?
Yes, it can.
Done incorrectly it can also make them much less-abled players. Again, it's a double edged sword. Use it well, and it can help. Use it poorly and you'll cut yourself.
In the original post, sfatbn07 indicated attempting to get very basic things from buzzing and communicate very basic ideas. Reminds me of a brass methods class honestly. And if they are beginners or close to it, then by all means teach them like beginners. Drop the theory crap, drop the high level exercises, drop trying to teach them like you're taught, and stop trying to teach them like college brass players. Instead use simple, but effective instructions. If something doesn't work, rather then trying it again and again until it does or they quit, drop it and try something else. Slowly build in any higher level theory. Don't just start off with it. Instead try to position it so that at the end of your class they have a basic understanding of the fundamentals that they should do. Slowly, gradually, and connect it with what they are playing.
Believe it or not, these are common mistakes- especially from college players. They spend so much time learning advanced methods, yet still do not understand them enough to in turn make them basic again.
Something to remember with any teaching: You can help AND you can harm. You can even do both at the same time. Choose your path carefully.
Take care,
B0B
And you, sir, appear to be something of a double-edged poster.
How do you reconcile the post above with this one?
QuoteSuggestion for improving the buzzing-
Don't do it.
I've found it may help to do just a few short minutes of buzzing before playing just to give them an idea of what to do once the mouthpiece is on the lips, but beyond that... you're looking to cause some problems.
Playing low brass is about playing low brass.
Only use buzzing sparingly when it is helpful.
If you keep working on it and it isn't going anywhere- it isn't helpful! Stop!
Take care,
B0B
-
ttf_B0B
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
buzzing issues
Pretty easy to reconcile.
The earlier one is simply a shorter version, without the explanation of why. The poster's been trying this method, hasn't worked... ok, stop and move on. Later, yes it has some good aspects but in this case the negatives outweigh the good and he's not making any ground. Stop and move on. With a bit more about teaching added in as well.
Neither post really conflicts with the other.
Is there part of that you disagree with?
Take care,
B0B
The earlier one is simply a shorter version, without the explanation of why. The poster's been trying this method, hasn't worked... ok, stop and move on. Later, yes it has some good aspects but in this case the negatives outweigh the good and he's not making any ground. Stop and move on. With a bit more about teaching added in as well.
Neither post really conflicts with the other.
Is there part of that you disagree with?
Take care,
B0B
-
ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
Quote from: B0B on Dec 08, 2010, 05:53PMPretty easy to reconcile.
The earlier one is simply a shorter version, without the explanation of why. The poster's been trying this method, hasn't worked... ok, stop and move on. Later, yes it has some good aspects but in this case the negatives outweigh the good and he's not making any ground. Stop and move on. With a bit more about teaching added in as well.
Neither post really conflicts with the other.
Is there part of that you disagree with?
Take care,
B0B
Yes, there is.
This part:
QuoteDon't do it.
Not "Do it better."
Not "Try to understand how it works."
Just "Don't do it.["
Here.
QuoteI have a problem with atacks in the middle range.
Answer:
QuoteDon't do it.
Bullshite.
Understand!!!
You're all over the place.
End of conversation.
S.
The earlier one is simply a shorter version, without the explanation of why. The poster's been trying this method, hasn't worked... ok, stop and move on. Later, yes it has some good aspects but in this case the negatives outweigh the good and he's not making any ground. Stop and move on. With a bit more about teaching added in as well.
Neither post really conflicts with the other.
Is there part of that you disagree with?
Take care,
B0B
Yes, there is.
This part:
QuoteDon't do it.
Not "Do it better."
Not "Try to understand how it works."
Just "Don't do it.["
Here.
QuoteI have a problem with atacks in the middle range.
Answer:
QuoteDon't do it.
Bullshite.
Understand!!!
You're all over the place.
End of conversation.
S.
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ttf_B0B
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
buzzing issues
Quote from: sabutin on Dec 08, 2010, 06:26PMNot "Do it better."
Not "Try to understand how it works."
Just "Don't do it."
Well sure. While the regular ensemble teacher struggles with "do[ing] it better" and "try[ing] to understand how it works", if they keep trying this in their ensemble they will lose the students and lose their job. Keep it moving and don't make your mistakes hinder the students any more then necessary.
Otherwise it's like if I try to hit a note above my range during a jazz solo. The audience ain't going to stay and listen if I just keep trying to hit that note over and over. What's more important, hitting that note or playing a good solo? Miss the note? Forget about it and play that solo.
QuoteYou're all over the place.
End of conversation.
S.Conversation? You come in, say I'm all over the place with nothing to back it up, and then say you're done. Sounds more like a tantrum.
Take care,
B0B
Not "Try to understand how it works."
Just "Don't do it."
Well sure. While the regular ensemble teacher struggles with "do[ing] it better" and "try[ing] to understand how it works", if they keep trying this in their ensemble they will lose the students and lose their job. Keep it moving and don't make your mistakes hinder the students any more then necessary.
Otherwise it's like if I try to hit a note above my range during a jazz solo. The audience ain't going to stay and listen if I just keep trying to hit that note over and over. What's more important, hitting that note or playing a good solo? Miss the note? Forget about it and play that solo.
QuoteYou're all over the place.
End of conversation.
S.Conversation? You come in, say I'm all over the place with nothing to back it up, and then say you're done. Sounds more like a tantrum.
Take care,
B0B
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ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
buzzing issues
QuoteWell sure. While the regular ensemble teacher struggles with "do[ing] it better" and "try[ing] to understand how it works", if they keep trying this in their ensemble they will lose the students and lose their job. Keep it moving and don't make your mistakes hinder the students any more then necessary.
Where is this "mistake", BOB?
In your own practice and/or teaching?
I don't see any mistakes, myself.
Not in this situation.
I know what works and what doesn't, on long and consistent experience.
QuoteOtherwise it's like if I try to hit a note above my range during a jazz solo. The audience ain't going to stay and listen if I just keep trying to hit that note over and over. What's more important, hitting that note or playing a good solo? Miss the note? Forget about it and play that solo.
Take the chance.
Solo or teaching.
No risk, no gain.
That's my philosophy, anyway.
How have I not backed my posiition up?
In my own life and career. And on the net. Do a search. I'm nothing if not "backed up."
Over and over and over again.
You?
I dunno.
Show me.
My stuff works.
Show me.
S.
Where is this "mistake", BOB?
In your own practice and/or teaching?
I don't see any mistakes, myself.
Not in this situation.
I know what works and what doesn't, on long and consistent experience.
QuoteOtherwise it's like if I try to hit a note above my range during a jazz solo. The audience ain't going to stay and listen if I just keep trying to hit that note over and over. What's more important, hitting that note or playing a good solo? Miss the note? Forget about it and play that solo.
Take the chance.
Solo or teaching.
No risk, no gain.
That's my philosophy, anyway.
How have I not backed my posiition up?
In my own life and career. And on the net. Do a search. I'm nothing if not "backed up."
Over and over and over again.
You?
I dunno.
Show me.
My stuff works.
Show me.
S.
-
ttf_Doug Elliott
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
buzzing issues
To refresh the original post:
Quote from: sfatbn07 on Sep 02, 2010, 10:15AMSo I feel lame asking this as I played trombone from 7th through college, but I am now teaching a combined low brass class and I am having some buzzing range issues.
The tbns and btns can all roughly match an F (this is day 3 of buzzing) but they cannont seem to get higher or lower.
The tubas are currently on a 2nd line Bb. For some reason they can all do what I call a "horse" buzz without the mouthpiece but stick the mouthpiece up and they are buzzing up with the tbns and btns.
I've demonstrated on both a tbn mpc and tuba mpc the buzzes I'm after.
We've done Sirens, Bottle Rockets (low to high), and Dive Bombers (high to low) in an effort to get some range going. However, it doesn't seem to be working.
I've talked about embouchure/aperture and air direction in relation to low and high buzzing. (Firmer for high, more relaxed for low... blow up for low, middle for middle, down for high, etc.)
I've currently hit a road block on what else to tell them. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
This is a topic that was started about beginners.
I think what B0B is trying to say is, if an approach isnt going anywhere, move on before you lose the attention of the student(s). Especially for someone who is not well versed in how or why to effectively teach buzzing.
I agree with that. If something is not working, dont do it. Come back to it later.
This entire discussion presents a lot of ideas about how to use buzzing as a means to improve playing. I really dont think anything needs to be added to it, and Im going to close the topic.
A lot can be learned by simply reading it all again.
Quote from: sfatbn07 on Sep 02, 2010, 10:15AMSo I feel lame asking this as I played trombone from 7th through college, but I am now teaching a combined low brass class and I am having some buzzing range issues.
The tbns and btns can all roughly match an F (this is day 3 of buzzing) but they cannont seem to get higher or lower.
The tubas are currently on a 2nd line Bb. For some reason they can all do what I call a "horse" buzz without the mouthpiece but stick the mouthpiece up and they are buzzing up with the tbns and btns.
I've demonstrated on both a tbn mpc and tuba mpc the buzzes I'm after.
We've done Sirens, Bottle Rockets (low to high), and Dive Bombers (high to low) in an effort to get some range going. However, it doesn't seem to be working.
I've talked about embouchure/aperture and air direction in relation to low and high buzzing. (Firmer for high, more relaxed for low... blow up for low, middle for middle, down for high, etc.)
I've currently hit a road block on what else to tell them. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
This is a topic that was started about beginners.
I think what B0B is trying to say is, if an approach isnt going anywhere, move on before you lose the attention of the student(s). Especially for someone who is not well versed in how or why to effectively teach buzzing.
I agree with that. If something is not working, dont do it. Come back to it later.
This entire discussion presents a lot of ideas about how to use buzzing as a means to improve playing. I really dont think anything needs to be added to it, and Im going to close the topic.
A lot can be learned by simply reading it all again.
-
ttf_Doug Elliott
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
buzzing issues
To refresh the original post:
Quote from: sfatbn07 on Sep 02, 2010, 10:15AMSo I feel lame asking this as I played trombone from 7th through college, but I am now teaching a combined low brass class and I am having some buzzing range issues.
The tbns and btns can all roughly match an F (this is day 3 of buzzing) but they cannont seem to get higher or lower.
The tubas are currently on a 2nd line Bb. For some reason they can all do what I call a "horse" buzz without the mouthpiece but stick the mouthpiece up and they are buzzing up with the tbns and btns.
I've demonstrated on both a tbn mpc and tuba mpc the buzzes I'm after.
We've done Sirens, Bottle Rockets (low to high), and Dive Bombers (high to low) in an effort to get some range going. However, it doesn't seem to be working.
I've talked about embouchure/aperture and air direction in relation to low and high buzzing. (Firmer for high, more relaxed for low... blow up for low, middle for middle, down for high, etc.)
I've currently hit a road block on what else to tell them. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
This is a topic that was started about beginners.
I think what B0B is trying to say is, if an approach isnt going anywhere, move on before you lose the attention of the student(s). Especially for someone who is not well versed in how or why to effectively teach buzzing.
I agree with that. If something is not working, dont do it. Come back to it later.
This entire discussion presents a lot of ideas about how to use buzzing as a means to improve playing. I really dont think anything needs to be added to it, and Im going to close the topic.
A lot can be learned by simply reading it all again.
Quote from: sfatbn07 on Sep 02, 2010, 10:15AMSo I feel lame asking this as I played trombone from 7th through college, but I am now teaching a combined low brass class and I am having some buzzing range issues.
The tbns and btns can all roughly match an F (this is day 3 of buzzing) but they cannont seem to get higher or lower.
The tubas are currently on a 2nd line Bb. For some reason they can all do what I call a "horse" buzz without the mouthpiece but stick the mouthpiece up and they are buzzing up with the tbns and btns.
I've demonstrated on both a tbn mpc and tuba mpc the buzzes I'm after.
We've done Sirens, Bottle Rockets (low to high), and Dive Bombers (high to low) in an effort to get some range going. However, it doesn't seem to be working.
I've talked about embouchure/aperture and air direction in relation to low and high buzzing. (Firmer for high, more relaxed for low... blow up for low, middle for middle, down for high, etc.)
I've currently hit a road block on what else to tell them. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
This is a topic that was started about beginners.
I think what B0B is trying to say is, if an approach isnt going anywhere, move on before you lose the attention of the student(s). Especially for someone who is not well versed in how or why to effectively teach buzzing.
I agree with that. If something is not working, dont do it. Come back to it later.
This entire discussion presents a lot of ideas about how to use buzzing as a means to improve playing. I really dont think anything needs to be added to it, and Im going to close the topic.
A lot can be learned by simply reading it all again.