Has anyone made one of these potential instruments? The first thing I think if would be pitch organization on the valves. Standard euphs' valves lower the pitch by (approximately, depending on acoustics and antinodes and such):
1st valve - down 1 note
2nd valve - down 2 notes
3rd valve - down 3 notes
4th valve - down 5 notes
where that 4th valve is usually moved to be played by the left hand. This results in 5+3+2+1 total half steps possible with all valves = 11, plus no valves = 12, which is the number of steps needed in 12ET to negotiate the chromatic scale.
Add another valve to that setup:
5th valve - down 7 notes
gets us to 19 notes possible between all the valves (plus more enharmonic fingerings for tunings), and 19ET is a very acoustically viable pitch organization.
Another option is to alter the valves so that each lowers the pitch by a power of 2 more than the next, so you get:
1st valve - down 1 note
2nd valve - down 2 notes
3rd valve - down 4 notes
4th valve - down 8 notes
5th valve - down 16 notes
which gives us room for 32 total possible pitches between all valves. 31ET is another quite acoustically viable pitch organization.
After a certain point, getting more precision with adding and altering valves and tube lengths gives diminishing returns because of the pitch flexibility in the instrument - just being able to "lip" notes up or down in pitch, but I suspect that this second 32-valve setup still wouldn't get past that "limit" of usefulness, although I think it may get close. Depends on how such an instrument would "slot".
Anyway, there are current composers (like myself) who would *LOVE* to be able to write for a set of such instruments. The theoretical tools are already in place: notation, harmonic theory, etc., but composers really do need performers to collaborate with, and performers need instruments . . .
Other-than-12ET euphoniums
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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ttf_BGuttman
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Remember that as you get further into the valves, the pitches tend to be sharp because you need more length to go the same distance. Even compensating Euphs don't do a perfect comparison.
I've found that I tune my 4th valve to be 1-3 plus a little so the note is more in tune. Thus 2-4 is more in tune than 1-2-3.
I found on my 5 valve tuba, the 5th valve is the equivalent of 2-3 (much like the F-Gb valves on a bass trombone). Again, keeping the combination a tad flat makes the combinations get more in tune. Some others like the 5th valve to be more like the G trigger on a bass trombone.
I've found that I tune my 4th valve to be 1-3 plus a little so the note is more in tune. Thus 2-4 is more in tune than 1-2-3.
I found on my 5 valve tuba, the 5th valve is the equivalent of 2-3 (much like the F-Gb valves on a bass trombone). Again, keeping the combination a tad flat makes the combinations get more in tune. Some others like the 5th valve to be more like the G trigger on a bass trombone.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Anyway, starters for anyone interested in why I say those two ETs are viable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_equal_temperament
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_equal_temperament
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Quote from: BGuttman on Mar 10, 2017, 09:44AMRemember that as you get further into the valves, the pitches tend to be sharp because you need more length to go the same distance. Even compensating Euphs don't do a perfect comparison.
I've found that I tune my 4th valve to be 1-3 plus a little so the note is more in tune. Thus 2-4 is more in tune than 1-2-3.
I found on my 5 valve tuba, the 5th valve is the equivalent of 2-3 (much like the F-Gb valves on a bass trombone). Again, keeping the combination a tad flat makes the combinations get more in tune. Some others like the 5th valve to be more like the G trigger on a bass trombone.
Of course. For this reason I suspect that if someone were to make a 19ET euphonium, these issues will make that a more practically versatile instrument to tune via alternate fingerings in the upper register, once the lower register (i.e., pedal Bb-low Bb) tunings are sorted out.
Edit:
Are you saying that the added valve may have to be more than 7 steps to work because of this effect? Standard euphs don't really do that, of course; all valves down = low B, which is just expected to be lipped into tune.
I've found that I tune my 4th valve to be 1-3 plus a little so the note is more in tune. Thus 2-4 is more in tune than 1-2-3.
I found on my 5 valve tuba, the 5th valve is the equivalent of 2-3 (much like the F-Gb valves on a bass trombone). Again, keeping the combination a tad flat makes the combinations get more in tune. Some others like the 5th valve to be more like the G trigger on a bass trombone.
Of course. For this reason I suspect that if someone were to make a 19ET euphonium, these issues will make that a more practically versatile instrument to tune via alternate fingerings in the upper register, once the lower register (i.e., pedal Bb-low Bb) tunings are sorted out.
Edit:
Are you saying that the added valve may have to be more than 7 steps to work because of this effect? Standard euphs don't really do that, of course; all valves down = low B, which is just expected to be lipped into tune.
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ttf_Driving Park
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You've got your 1st and 2nd valves backwards; the 2nd valve lowers the pitch by 1 half step and the 1st lowers it by 2.
An older French system had the 3rd valve lowering the pitch by 4 half steps rather than 3, and a lot of brass instruments (especially euphs) have a really long pull in the 3rd valve slide to accommodate this for some reason. I've tried it...3 steps makes a lot more sense IMO.
I suppose if you wanted another intellectual way of organizing valve pitches, you could use prime numbers. 1 (2nd valve), 2 (1st valve), 3 (3rd), 5 (4th), and 7 (5th). This is how some 5-valve instruments were tuned, with the 4th valve lowering the pitch by a 4th and the 5th lowering it by a 5th. If I remember correctly this is how the 6-valve French tuba in C that Bydlo was written for worked (I have no idea what the 6th valve did).
QuoteAnyway, there are current composers (like myself) who would *LOVE* to be able to write for a set of such instruments. The theoretical tools are already in place: notation, harmonic theory, etc., but composers really do need performers to collaborate with, and performers need instruments . . .
I'm confused. What exactly would these valve combinations accomplish that current 4-valve compensating euphoniums and tubas, as well as 5-, 6-, and 7-valve tubas cannot? I can understand the argument for a more perfect intonation system so that tubists don't have to be pulling slides all the time, but from a compositional standpoint why does it matter what valve combinations a player uses to play the notes on the page? Any professional tubist or euphoniumist can play any note within his or her physical capability perfectly in tune on a modern instrument. What current composers are pining to write for large bugles and saxhorns with different valve pitches than what is the norm? I would think contemporary composers would be wanting more microtonal valves and double bells. Are you wanting to write euphonium parts lower than B0 or tuba parts lower than an octave below that?
As for a more perfect intonation system, IMO double and triple instruments like with French horns are the way to go, not adding even more tubing combinations. Euphs already have long main tuning slide triggers to bring sharp partials into line.
An older French system had the 3rd valve lowering the pitch by 4 half steps rather than 3, and a lot of brass instruments (especially euphs) have a really long pull in the 3rd valve slide to accommodate this for some reason. I've tried it...3 steps makes a lot more sense IMO.
I suppose if you wanted another intellectual way of organizing valve pitches, you could use prime numbers. 1 (2nd valve), 2 (1st valve), 3 (3rd), 5 (4th), and 7 (5th). This is how some 5-valve instruments were tuned, with the 4th valve lowering the pitch by a 4th and the 5th lowering it by a 5th. If I remember correctly this is how the 6-valve French tuba in C that Bydlo was written for worked (I have no idea what the 6th valve did).
QuoteAnyway, there are current composers (like myself) who would *LOVE* to be able to write for a set of such instruments. The theoretical tools are already in place: notation, harmonic theory, etc., but composers really do need performers to collaborate with, and performers need instruments . . .
I'm confused. What exactly would these valve combinations accomplish that current 4-valve compensating euphoniums and tubas, as well as 5-, 6-, and 7-valve tubas cannot? I can understand the argument for a more perfect intonation system so that tubists don't have to be pulling slides all the time, but from a compositional standpoint why does it matter what valve combinations a player uses to play the notes on the page? Any professional tubist or euphoniumist can play any note within his or her physical capability perfectly in tune on a modern instrument. What current composers are pining to write for large bugles and saxhorns with different valve pitches than what is the norm? I would think contemporary composers would be wanting more microtonal valves and double bells. Are you wanting to write euphonium parts lower than B0 or tuba parts lower than an octave below that?
As for a more perfect intonation system, IMO double and triple instruments like with French horns are the way to go, not adding even more tubing combinations. Euphs already have long main tuning slide triggers to bring sharp partials into line.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Quote from: Driving Park on Mar 10, 2017, 09:56AMYou've got your 1st and 2nd valves backwards; the 2nd valve lowers the pitch by 1 half step and the 1st lowers it by 2.
Doh! Yeah, you get the gist, at least.
QuoteI'm confused. What exactly would these valve combinations accomplish that current 4-valve compensating euphoniums and tubas, as well as 5-, 6-, and 7-valve tubas cannot? I can understand the argument for a more perfect intonation system so that tubists don't have to be pulling slides all the time, but from a compositional standpoint why does it matter what valve combinations a player uses to play the notes on the page? Any professional tubist or euphoniumist can play any note within his or her physical capability perfectly in tune on a modern instrument. What current composers are pining to write for large bugles and saxhorns with different valve pitches than what is the norm? I would think contemporary composers would be wanting more microtonal valves and double bells. Are you wanting to write euphonium parts lower than B0 or tuba parts lower than an octave below that?
As for a more perfect intonation system, IMO double and triple instruments like with French horns are the way to go, not adding even more tubing combinations. Euphs already have long main tuning slide triggers to bring sharp partials into line.
These suggestions *are* microtonal setups, such that (using the 19ET example) having all 5 valves depressed brings us to one note above pedal Bb, if on the partial above it. 19 notes per octave.
As for why composers would like these tools, I present argument 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9Itc_olvRU
That clip does not 19ET or 31ET, but using a different un-tempered system that a higher temperament on euphonium could potentially emulate.
Doh! Yeah, you get the gist, at least.
QuoteI'm confused. What exactly would these valve combinations accomplish that current 4-valve compensating euphoniums and tubas, as well as 5-, 6-, and 7-valve tubas cannot? I can understand the argument for a more perfect intonation system so that tubists don't have to be pulling slides all the time, but from a compositional standpoint why does it matter what valve combinations a player uses to play the notes on the page? Any professional tubist or euphoniumist can play any note within his or her physical capability perfectly in tune on a modern instrument. What current composers are pining to write for large bugles and saxhorns with different valve pitches than what is the norm? I would think contemporary composers would be wanting more microtonal valves and double bells. Are you wanting to write euphonium parts lower than B0 or tuba parts lower than an octave below that?
As for a more perfect intonation system, IMO double and triple instruments like with French horns are the way to go, not adding even more tubing combinations. Euphs already have long main tuning slide triggers to bring sharp partials into line.
These suggestions *are* microtonal setups, such that (using the 19ET example) having all 5 valves depressed brings us to one note above pedal Bb, if on the partial above it. 19 notes per octave.
As for why composers would like these tools, I present argument 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9Itc_olvRU
That clip does not 19ET or 31ET, but using a different un-tempered system that a higher temperament on euphonium could potentially emulate.
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ttf_robcat2075
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When you say "19ET", are meaning to divide the octave into 19 equal parts?
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Quote from: robcat2075 on Mar 10, 2017, 10:12AMWhen you say "19ET", are meaning to divide the octave into 19 equal parts?
Yes.
Yes.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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A euph with a kicker is in any of these temperaments.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 10, 2017, 11:24AMA euph with a kicker is in any of these temperaments.
No, it's not. The kickers I've seen typically are about a quarter-tone, making the euph essentially 24ET, unless it's a special kicker that's easy to control the distance kicked, and that doesn't cover bending the pitch upwards.
No, it's not. The kickers I've seen typically are about a quarter-tone, making the euph essentially 24ET, unless it's a special kicker that's easy to control the distance kicked, and that doesn't cover bending the pitch upwards.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Mar 10, 2017, 11:51AMNo, it's not. The kickers I've seen typically are about a quarter-tone, making the euph essentially 24ET, unless it's a special kicker that's easy to control the distance kicked, and that doesn't cover bending the pitch upwards.
You can have a tech cut the slide, align it properly, and put in a very smooth kicker. Cutting it allows you to pull in. It's expensive. Few would want to do it. As you say, it'd be a special kicker.
Would a cut slide have even a half step of play? You're right, probably not.
I wonder if having so many valves would be feasible. You can create tempered instruments that work for a few keys (like a non electric microtonal piano). As you add valve tubing to the euph or move away from the fundemental key, I suspect that the method of compensating to maintain pitch would become insanely complex.
The closest thing I've seen to a microtonal valved brass instrument is the superbone, and the firebird and pheonix trumpets. They all have a glorified tuning handslide. I believe the Firebird had one version with nearly 7 positions worth of slide, and the normal version had 4 positions worth 1.5 steps. You could probably design a Euph around a four valve, 4 position slide setup.
The problem I see is that with total freedom of pitch, the human ear would gravitate naturally more towards 5 limit just intonation. Music written in 31 TET wouldn't be easily played unless the instrument forced pitch, like a working version of your multivalve concept.
You can have a tech cut the slide, align it properly, and put in a very smooth kicker. Cutting it allows you to pull in. It's expensive. Few would want to do it. As you say, it'd be a special kicker.
Would a cut slide have even a half step of play? You're right, probably not.
I wonder if having so many valves would be feasible. You can create tempered instruments that work for a few keys (like a non electric microtonal piano). As you add valve tubing to the euph or move away from the fundemental key, I suspect that the method of compensating to maintain pitch would become insanely complex.
The closest thing I've seen to a microtonal valved brass instrument is the superbone, and the firebird and pheonix trumpets. They all have a glorified tuning handslide. I believe the Firebird had one version with nearly 7 positions worth of slide, and the normal version had 4 positions worth 1.5 steps. You could probably design a Euph around a four valve, 4 position slide setup.
The problem I see is that with total freedom of pitch, the human ear would gravitate naturally more towards 5 limit just intonation. Music written in 31 TET wouldn't be easily played unless the instrument forced pitch, like a working version of your multivalve concept.
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ttf_JohnL
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Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Mar 10, 2017, 11:51AMNo, it's not. The kickers I've seen typically are about a quarter-tone, making the euph essentially 24ET, unless it's a special kicker that's easy to control the distance kicked, and that doesn't cover bending the pitch upwards.I've seen a kicker designed to go both ways. Two opposing springs and the slide just sort of "floats" in between.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Also, would 19 or 31 TET be compatible with the overtone series in a brass instrument?
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ttf_Driving Park
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There are trumpets from multiple manufacturers sold with quarter tone valves. Assuming all partials are perfectly in tune (which they aren't, especially on a euph, but...slide kickers, so let's say they are), a quarter tone valve would make the euphonium 24ET. I saw a tuba for sale somewhere that had an 1/8 tone valve, perhaps in addition to a 1/4 tone valve. Put both of those on a euph and you'd have 36ET. You could also divide them so that they equally divided the half step into 3 parts, or just add a 3/8 tone valve and have every 1/8 tone interval to make 48ET.
Because of tubing and partial concerns, I think microtonal valves would be a lot better for what you're proposing than 5th and 6th valves, each with proportionally more tubing than the 4th valve. Sure, you might get the amount of notes in an octave you wanted that way, but switching back and forth from a fundamental of Bb1 to Gb0 (using your 16 step 5th valve idea in your first post) would change the sound and resistance a lot more than changing it from Bb1 to a little bit lower than Bb1. A valve that adds that much tubing, much like (actually more than) a single C valve on a bass trombone, should only be used in the low register.
If you're wanting specifically 19ET, 31ET or other ETs not divisible by 12, no current valve lengths would work properly as every tube length is designed for 12ET. The solution then would be to give pitch infinite variance by giving a normal euph a superbone/Firebird-like handslide like Harrison mentioned (a relatively easy and elegant solution that would also allow for limited glissandi), or build the valve tubing from scratch with your temperament specifically in mind after doing lots of math. But dividing an octave into an odd number of equal parts probably wouldn't start with 2 half steps, 1 half step, etc.
The easiest solution would just be to use a trombone.
Because of tubing and partial concerns, I think microtonal valves would be a lot better for what you're proposing than 5th and 6th valves, each with proportionally more tubing than the 4th valve. Sure, you might get the amount of notes in an octave you wanted that way, but switching back and forth from a fundamental of Bb1 to Gb0 (using your 16 step 5th valve idea in your first post) would change the sound and resistance a lot more than changing it from Bb1 to a little bit lower than Bb1. A valve that adds that much tubing, much like (actually more than) a single C valve on a bass trombone, should only be used in the low register.
If you're wanting specifically 19ET, 31ET or other ETs not divisible by 12, no current valve lengths would work properly as every tube length is designed for 12ET. The solution then would be to give pitch infinite variance by giving a normal euph a superbone/Firebird-like handslide like Harrison mentioned (a relatively easy and elegant solution that would also allow for limited glissandi), or build the valve tubing from scratch with your temperament specifically in mind after doing lots of math. But dividing an octave into an odd number of equal parts probably wouldn't start with 2 half steps, 1 half step, etc.
The easiest solution would just be to use a trombone.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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I don't think partials would line up properly. A = 0c would be one partial, E = 697c might be close to right in the next partial. The C# above it MUST be 13c off at 1200c + 387c. Not to mention Cx Db Dbb all being 39c intervals from eachother.
Also, would open valves be tuned to A# = 77c or Bb = 116c ?
When 39c is what separates "correct" pitches, the overtone series variations would make playing "in tune" nightmarish.
I still don't think the firebird / superbone idea is great for actually playing microtonal music though. Yes, after the human voice or trombone or violin, it is technically the best solution to play microtonal stuff. However, I feel like most musicians and humans are not hearing music or thinking about music microtonally. They aren't even thinking in true 12TET when singing western music. Usually our ears default to just intonation. Barbershop quartets are a great example. If you asked a western singer to sing music in 31tet, I bet he would have an incredibly hard time doing it. Same for a trombonist or violinist. However, a trained pianist and a keyboard designed to split an octave 31 times would be able to do it because the keyboard FORCES 31TET the same way a steinway forces stretched 12TET. You don't need to know what a Dbb is going to exactly sound like on a 31TET keyboard.
So where exactly would the open instrument be tuned? A440, Bb = 116c? Would the second valve put it into A440, Ab = 0c? Where is A#?
Also, would open valves be tuned to A# = 77c or Bb = 116c ?
When 39c is what separates "correct" pitches, the overtone series variations would make playing "in tune" nightmarish.
I still don't think the firebird / superbone idea is great for actually playing microtonal music though. Yes, after the human voice or trombone or violin, it is technically the best solution to play microtonal stuff. However, I feel like most musicians and humans are not hearing music or thinking about music microtonally. They aren't even thinking in true 12TET when singing western music. Usually our ears default to just intonation. Barbershop quartets are a great example. If you asked a western singer to sing music in 31tet, I bet he would have an incredibly hard time doing it. Same for a trombonist or violinist. However, a trained pianist and a keyboard designed to split an octave 31 times would be able to do it because the keyboard FORCES 31TET the same way a steinway forces stretched 12TET. You don't need to know what a Dbb is going to exactly sound like on a 31TET keyboard.
So where exactly would the open instrument be tuned? A440, Bb = 116c? Would the second valve put it into A440, Ab = 0c? Where is A#?
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ttf_Driving Park
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Quote from: harrison.t.reedI still don't think the firebird / superbone idea is great for actually playing microtonal music though. Yes, after the human voice or trombone or violin, it is technically the best solution to play microtonal stuff. However, I feel like most musicians and humans are not hearing music or thinking about music microtonally. They aren't even thinking in true 12TET when singing western music. Usually our ears default to just intonation. Barbershop quartets are a great example. If you asked a western singer to sing music in 31tet, I bet he would have an incredibly hard time doing it. Same for a trombonist or violinist.
Agreed with all of the above.
However, in my opinion there is a fundamental problem with making microtonal brass instruments, especially ones not tuned to 24ET quarter tones, and that is that no brass instrument's harmonic series is perfectly in tune. Let's stick with the euphonium and say it's somehow tuned to 31ET, and that somehow the open partials are all notes that work in that temperament (another problem, as you mentioned). When the euphonium player plays an F4, that note will be very sharp because it is on every euphonium ever made. I think it would be sharp enough to make it at least one note higher in the chromatic scale for 31ET. That in itself is fine because of the aforementioned slide kickers, but how is the player to know where to put the kicker to put the note immediately below that in tune when he/she doesn't know what "in tune" for that note is? You'd need a tuner that you could set to any temperament and a lot of practice for every pitch if you really wanted it all sounded properly. Then the player might eventually be ruined for regular 12ET! Whereas a keyboardist doesn't care either way because they don't have to think about intonation and the instrument stays in the right temperament.
Essentially:
QuoteHowever, a trained pianist and a keyboard designed to split an octave 31 times would be able to do it because the keyboard FORCES 31TET the same way a steinway forces stretched 12ET.
A valved brass instrument allegedly tuned to 31ET doesn't really force 31ET.
No brass instrument (especially euphonium) is 100% in tune without adjustment, and when the chromatic pitches are more than twice as close as they are in normal 12ET, that's a big problem. It's more like it forces sort of an approximation of something kind of like 31ET until the player can spend days/weeks/months/etc. really learning where every pitch is supposed to go.
Agreed with all of the above.
However, in my opinion there is a fundamental problem with making microtonal brass instruments, especially ones not tuned to 24ET quarter tones, and that is that no brass instrument's harmonic series is perfectly in tune. Let's stick with the euphonium and say it's somehow tuned to 31ET, and that somehow the open partials are all notes that work in that temperament (another problem, as you mentioned). When the euphonium player plays an F4, that note will be very sharp because it is on every euphonium ever made. I think it would be sharp enough to make it at least one note higher in the chromatic scale for 31ET. That in itself is fine because of the aforementioned slide kickers, but how is the player to know where to put the kicker to put the note immediately below that in tune when he/she doesn't know what "in tune" for that note is? You'd need a tuner that you could set to any temperament and a lot of practice for every pitch if you really wanted it all sounded properly. Then the player might eventually be ruined for regular 12ET! Whereas a keyboardist doesn't care either way because they don't have to think about intonation and the instrument stays in the right temperament.
Essentially:
QuoteHowever, a trained pianist and a keyboard designed to split an octave 31 times would be able to do it because the keyboard FORCES 31TET the same way a steinway forces stretched 12ET.
A valved brass instrument allegedly tuned to 31ET doesn't really force 31ET.
No brass instrument (especially euphonium) is 100% in tune without adjustment, and when the chromatic pitches are more than twice as close as they are in normal 12ET, that's a big problem. It's more like it forces sort of an approximation of something kind of like 31ET until the player can spend days/weeks/months/etc. really learning where every pitch is supposed to go.
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ttf_BGuttman
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There is also a mechanical problem when you want to slice and dice microtones.
On a 9 foot horn, 1/2 step is about 5 inches of extra tube length. On a Euph this is the length of tubing IN the valve plus the valve loop. If you look at the typical Baritone Horn the 2nd valve loop is around 4 inches. If you are going to make a 1/4 tone valve, that means the loop is around 2 inches. Make it 1/8 tone and you are going to have a problem getting a 1 inch loop to fit the valve.
On a 9 foot horn, 1/2 step is about 5 inches of extra tube length. On a Euph this is the length of tubing IN the valve plus the valve loop. If you look at the typical Baritone Horn the 2nd valve loop is around 4 inches. If you are going to make a 1/4 tone valve, that means the loop is around 2 inches. Make it 1/8 tone and you are going to have a problem getting a 1 inch loop to fit the valve.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 10, 2017, 02:44PMI don't think partials would line up properly.
Go re-read those Wikipedia articles. The reason for those two in particular is that they line up with the lower parts of the natural overtone series unusually well compared to other ETs. (along with 12ET of course)
Also, the actual partials on a brass instrument are *not* acoustically even that closely related to the overtone series, other than that on modern instruments the overtone series is fairly well-approximated. In truth, brass instruments have partials that only consist of odd harmonics based on the shape of the air column, due to the air vibrating column requiring a node at the mouthpiece and an antinode at the bell. The fact that modern instruments' partials so closely resemble the whole overtone series and not just the odd parts should indicate to us just how much the partial intervals are distorted by the shape of the air column.
So, given enough resources to experiment with, this is a solvable issue.
Go re-read those Wikipedia articles. The reason for those two in particular is that they line up with the lower parts of the natural overtone series unusually well compared to other ETs. (along with 12ET of course)
Also, the actual partials on a brass instrument are *not* acoustically even that closely related to the overtone series, other than that on modern instruments the overtone series is fairly well-approximated. In truth, brass instruments have partials that only consist of odd harmonics based on the shape of the air column, due to the air vibrating column requiring a node at the mouthpiece and an antinode at the bell. The fact that modern instruments' partials so closely resemble the whole overtone series and not just the odd parts should indicate to us just how much the partial intervals are distorted by the shape of the air column.
So, given enough resources to experiment with, this is a solvable issue.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Other-than-12ET euphoniums
Quote from: Driving Park on Mar 10, 2017, 05:21PMA valved brass instrument allegedly tuned to 31ET doesn't really force 31ET.
I don't think it's necessarily the case that *any* wind instrument is intended to perform exact 12ET; they're just intended to get close and to give the performer enough control combined with pitch flexibility to be able to adjust tuning to their environments.
A potential 19ET euphonium, thus won't necessarily require pure 19ET performance. In fact, I am pretty sure that such a euphonium would be able to play with other 12ET instruments fairly well. One of the little quirks of such an instrument would be to simply have a slightly more harmonically accurate major scale, and the fingerings between keys would follow those harmonics a bit better than in 12ET, at least in general. And, for composers who want to expand their tonal palette, such an instrument would give them some pretty nifty options as far as creating interesting chords/counterpoint/etc. that could make a piece of music stand out. Remember, even in 12ET, the base harmonic tool is (usually) the major or minor scale and variations, not the chromatic scale.
I don't think it's necessarily the case that *any* wind instrument is intended to perform exact 12ET; they're just intended to get close and to give the performer enough control combined with pitch flexibility to be able to adjust tuning to their environments.
A potential 19ET euphonium, thus won't necessarily require pure 19ET performance. In fact, I am pretty sure that such a euphonium would be able to play with other 12ET instruments fairly well. One of the little quirks of such an instrument would be to simply have a slightly more harmonically accurate major scale, and the fingerings between keys would follow those harmonics a bit better than in 12ET, at least in general. And, for composers who want to expand their tonal palette, such an instrument would give them some pretty nifty options as far as creating interesting chords/counterpoint/etc. that could make a piece of music stand out. Remember, even in 12ET, the base harmonic tool is (usually) the major or minor scale and variations, not the chromatic scale.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Other-than-12ET euphoniums
Quote from: BGuttman on Mar 10, 2017, 05:33PMThere is also a mechanical problem when you want to slice and dice microtones.
On a 9 foot horn, 1/2 step is about 5 inches of extra tube length. On a Euph this is the length of tubing IN the valve plus the valve loop. If you look at the typical Baritone Horn the 2nd valve loop is around 4 inches. If you are going to make a 1/4 tone valve, that means the loop is around 2 inches. Make it 1/8 tone and you are going to have a problem getting a 1 inch loop to fit the valve.
Is this one of the reasons (maybe) why cornets generally have a smaller bore size than euphoniums/baritones?
On a 9 foot horn, 1/2 step is about 5 inches of extra tube length. On a Euph this is the length of tubing IN the valve plus the valve loop. If you look at the typical Baritone Horn the 2nd valve loop is around 4 inches. If you are going to make a 1/4 tone valve, that means the loop is around 2 inches. Make it 1/8 tone and you are going to have a problem getting a 1 inch loop to fit the valve.
Is this one of the reasons (maybe) why cornets generally have a smaller bore size than euphoniums/baritones?
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Other-than-12ET euphoniums
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 10, 2017, 01:20PMYou can have a tech cut the slide, align it properly, and put in a very smooth kicker. Cutting it allows you to pull in. It's expensive. Few would want to do it. As you say, it'd be a special kicker.
Would a cut slide have even a half step of play? You're right, probably not.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but while these kickers do allow some pitch flexibility, aren't they really built to help get the low B in tune on a euphonium? That is, they would be built dimensionally so that they lower the pitch by an amount to get that note in tune, whatever that interval happens to be.
Would a cut slide have even a half step of play? You're right, probably not.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but while these kickers do allow some pitch flexibility, aren't they really built to help get the low B in tune on a euphonium? That is, they would be built dimensionally so that they lower the pitch by an amount to get that note in tune, whatever that interval happens to be.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Other-than-12ET euphoniums
A "kicker" works like the 1st or 3rd valve triggers on a trumpet. You can move the tuning slide as much or as little as you want. Probably part of learning to use it is to figure out how much "kick" does what. Similar to a mechanism I have on my Conn 19I which allows me to move the 3rd valve slide (or I could if it wasn't so tight).
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ttf_JohnL
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Other-than-12ET euphoniums
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Mar 10, 2017, 06:06PMCorrect me if I'm wrong, but while these kickers do allow some pitch flexibility, aren't they really built to help get the low B in tune on a euphonium? That is, they would be built dimensionally so that they lower the pitch by an amount to get that note in tune, whatever that interval happens to be.On tuba, they're used on a bunch of different notes.
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ttf_JohnL
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Other-than-12ET euphoniums
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Mar 10, 2017, 06:06PMCorrect me if I'm wrong, but while these kickers do allow some pitch flexibility, aren't they really built to help get the low B in tune on a euphonium? That is, they would be built dimensionally so that they lower the pitch by an amount to get that note in tune, whatever that interval happens to be.On tuba, they're used on a bunch of different notes.