Valve Wraps

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:35 am

Hi all,

I'm after some technical advice... I've recently picked up a Conn 60H which has had a second valve added... it is a wonderful instrument, an absolute hoot to play, however, there is one tiny problem, I have a really large neck and the second valve wrap is where my neck goes, it intrudes into my space! It is only slight but even so, I want to remedy it, i.e. have the wrap altered slightly to create a little more space, anyone else had this done? Any ideas about layout for the wrap? The instrument has no lacquer left and isn't "pretty" so alteration shouldn't be a problem, all info gratefully received!

Cheers
Chris.

PS: Pics of existing wrap: http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/giblett123bass/library/60H?sort=3&page=1

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am

See if you can get the second valve tube turned around so it is on the same side as the F valve tuning slide.... you may need to get the F side open wrapped too... It's a job I have done on my own instruments, but it may be expensive to get a tech to do it.

Chris Stearn

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:54 am

Cheers Chris,

I'm exploring quotes at the mo, I'd probably be willing to pay as it is a really great blower, having done dual bores and been all the way to toilet bowl mouthpieces and back I'm really liking playing this, great sound!

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:19 am

To avoid having to have both sections rebuilt completely, you could also just have the side of the wrap that is in the way rotated 180 degrees so that it curves in the same direction and runs parallel to the other, and then have the tuning slide modified (or changed) to fit accordingly. The tuning slide would need to have a shape similar to the F-slide of a Duo Gravis.

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:01 am

Now that sounds like a plan!

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:32 pm

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 03, 2017, 08:19AMThe tuning slide would need to have a shape similar to the F-slide of a Duo Gravis.
Nahhh if you reuse the D attachment bow and new curvy tubes are used that push the D side out far enough past the F side you wouldn't need to have a funky shaped F slide like on a Duo Gravis.

The D slide just needs to be wayyyy back like on a Getzen 1062FD so that you get enough clearance.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:42 pm

That is not what I was saying. What I meant is you don't touch the F side at all, and you keep the D wrap on the front of the horn, you just flip the tube that is on the leftmost tube of the D wrap so it's heading towards the other tube and the bell instead of towards the player, and yo alter the shape of the D tuning slide accordingly (which, unless you want an extra long thin ''U'' slide, could be in a shape similar to the Duo Gravis F wrap, but tighter since it's a shorter circuit).

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:43 pm

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 03, 2017, 06:42PMThat is not what I was saying. What I meant is you don't touch the F side at all, and you keep the D wrap on the front of the horn, you just flip the tube that is on the leftmost tube of the D wrap so it's heading towards the other tube and the bell instead of towards the player, and yo alter the shape of the D tuning slide accordingly (which, unless you want an extra long thin ''U'' slide, could be in a shape similar to the Duo Gravis F wrap, but tighter since it's a shorter circuit).

Yes. This would be pretty straightforward.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:55 pm

I'm kind of partial to my King 7B wrap:

(Sorry it doesn't show the entire wrap, which goes past the tuning slide a bit).

ttf_Ken Kugler · Post by **ttf_Ken Kugler** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:49 pm

The old 62H's had two pieces of straight pipe coming out of the D valve to insert the stock Conn D slide. Minnick made a more opened up D slide which differed from the stock Conn D slide so the two angled bends were a little farther up the bell then on your horn. Also the Minnick D slide was a little bit narrower then on your horn. The combination of those two things seemed to have solved the "neck" problem.

Your horn was a converted 60H so it never had those straight pieces of tubing coming out of the 2nd valve. (I tried to upload a picture but I don't know if it will show up or not)

It would take a little bit of effort on someone's part to reconfigure that D slide but if you inserted a straight section before the bends it might be less surgery then trying to put both wraps on the other side of the horn.

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:17 pm

Quote from: Ken Kugler on Apr 03, 2017, 08:49PMIt would take a little bit of effort on someone's part to reconfigure that D slide but if you inserted a straight section before the bends it might be less surgery then trying to put both wraps on the other side of the horn.
I didn't even think of that!

It would have to be all new parts but at the very least op would be able to save the old D wrap and could return it to "stock" if they wanted to.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:40 am

New tube has a cost, sure... but new custom bends will cost a lot more... which the King style slide would involve.

Chris Stearn

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:22 am

I suppose I could always go on a diet so my neck isn't so wide!!

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:18 am

I looked again... I would want to change that too... not good... if you can find a tech who has a smaller bend (like the F attachment bends) you could get the tubes directed around the back easily and joined by the smaller bend... open wraps are more about fashion than function anyway. Just thinking...

Chris Stearn

ttf_miketrombone · Post by **ttf_miketrombone** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:24 am

This was a great project done by octavposaune:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,68707.msg941051.html

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:34 am

Quote from: miketrombone on Apr 04, 2017, 04:24AMThis was a great project done by octavposaune:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,68707.msg941051.html

I can second this direction. I actually played one of Benn's horns owned by a NYC bass trombonist. Great work and a beautifully playing instrument. One place where you need to pay attention, however, is the area where the lower tubing wrap turns down towards your left shoulder. The horn I tried hit me in the shoulder causing the horn to sit crooked on my chops. I could eventually find the "sweet spot" but had I owned the horn I would need to rework that area. But we all have different bodies. And for the owner of that horn, who has a thick neck as well, it accomplished what he needed.

ttf_Joe Stanko · Post by **ttf_Joe Stanko** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:10 am

Quote from: miketrombone on Apr 04, 2017, 04:24AMThis was a great project done by octavposaune:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,68707.msg941051.html

This was my horn and Benn built per my preferences. I have issues with tubing interference based on how I hold the instrument and Benn has been terrific at building bell sections.

Joe Stanko

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:17 am

I have seen Benn's work at Joe's apartment and it is indeed stunning... never seen better custom work.
That sort of work does not come cheap or quick and I suspect the OP is looking for a quick turnaround at modest cost... there are people who can do that kind of work in the UK... but not many.

Chris Stearn

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:16 am

Quote from: blast on Apr 04, 2017, 06:17AMI have seen Benn's work at Joe's apartment and it is indeed stunning... never seen better custom work.
That sort of work does not come cheap or quick and I suspect the OP is looking for a quick turnaround at modest cost... there are people who can do that kind of work in the UK... but not many.

Chris Stearn

I know a certain bass trombonist who does that kind of work.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:22 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Apr 04, 2017, 08:16AMI know a certain bass trombonist who does that kind of work.

Actually, two. John Sandhagen does a lot of custom work as well...

And Benn and Eric are both bass trombonists as well.

Is there some magic combination of being a bass trombonist and a brass tech?

ttf_bonearzt · Post by **ttf_bonearzt** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:24 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 04, 2017, 08:22AMIs there some magic combination of being a bass trombonist and a brass tech?

Lack of bass playing opportunities??

At least in MY situation.....and lack of chops AND too many better musicians around me!

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:06 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 04, 2017, 08:22AMActually, two. John Sandhagen does a lot of custom work as well...

And Benn and Eric are both bass trombonists as well.

Is there some magic combination of being a bass trombonist and a brass tech?

Yes well I meant in the UK.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am

Quote from: bonearzt on Apr 04, 2017, 08:24AM...

At least in MY situation.....and lack of chops AND too many better musicians around me!

The reason I became a Chemical Engineer...

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:04 pm

I did a 60H conversion with smaller "S" bends and straight tubing below them:

ttf_bonearzt · Post by **ttf_bonearzt** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:42 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Apr 05, 2017, 12:04PMI did a 60H conversion with smaller "S" bends and straight tubing below them:

Eh... not bad......8P

BEAUTIFUL as always Brad!!!!

Eric

ttf_Horn Builder · Post by **ttf_Horn Builder** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:52 pm

I had my 62 setup very similarly to Brad's version, before I put other valves on it.

That would be the least invasive option, and parts to do it are readily available.

M

ttf_bonearzt · Post by **ttf_bonearzt** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:53 pm

Quote from: Horn Builder on Apr 05, 2017, 03:52PMI had my 62 setup very similarly to Brad's version, before I put other valves on it.
That would be the least invasive option, and parts to do it are readily available.
M
How about building a whole new valve section to preserve the original?
IF it's a well playing valve section.

Eric

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:34 pm

Brad is there any particular reason that customer wanted to have both in slide tuning and bell tuning on the same horn? I've seen a couple horns pop up like that and I'm just curious as to the merits of a horn having both instead of just one or the other...

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:31 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Apr 04, 2017, 09:06AMYes well I meant in the UK.

I think Bill is referring to the fact that twos weeks ago I rebuilt and installed a set of Minick built indi rotors on my Conn bass and this week installed a Brasslab built indi section in my Holton 169. All work on my own horns... I don't do work for others for money... that is a whole different gig. I have done work for friends, but not for money... and sold on some frankenbones after they were built. I have tried open wrap second valve tubes on a 62H and closed wrap versions and could find no real differences between them, so the OP should go for a less open wrap that gets out of the way of his neck.

Chris Stearn

ttf_jack · Post by **ttf_jack** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:02 am

I would like to own a 60H or 62H. I don't have a thick neck......
(Just saying..)

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:16 am

Quote from: blast on Apr 06, 2017, 12:31AMI think Bill is referring to the fact that twos weeks ago I rebuilt and installed a set of Minick built indi rotors on my Conn bass and this week installed a Brasslab built indi section in my Holton 169. All work on my own horns... I don't do work for others for money... that is a whole different gig. I have done work for friends, but not for money... and sold on some frankenbones after they were built. I have tried open wrap second valve tubes on a 62H and closed wrap versions and could find no real differences between them, so the OP should go for a less open wrap that gets out of the way of his neck.

Chris Stearn

I wasn't trying to start a new business for you Chris. Just trying to make a humorous statement.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:29 am

I wasn't quite ready t sell but I do have a closed wrap.. 72h valve section (single plug) that I may be willing to sell if you need it for this project. (as per Eric's comment about saving your current one and making a new one).

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:35 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Apr 06, 2017, 05:16AMI wasn't trying to start a new business for you Chris. Just trying to make a humorous statement.

Ha Ha ! I was just making sure that our resident techs don't think I am trying to jump on the' band-aid 'wagon...
Perhaps when I retire.... no plans for that yet though...

Chris

P.S. you should know better than to try and inject humour into the forum.... wraps are serious

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:05 am

Chris S,

Speaking of valve wraps, do you happen to have any Holton bass valve tubing lying around spare that I could monetarily compensate you for? Or does anyone else, for that matter?

The reason I ask: Remember the long D slide I had made for the second valve of the independent 169? It's a clear blowing improvement over the combination of two valves with standard length slides, but it was made out of spare 88H bits - so the bore is smaller than would match (being .562 vs the desired .585). This is (I feel) readily discerned in the blowing and sound response, and I would like to try it with a valve slide made of correctly-dimensioned parts.

Am I right in thinking that any Holton bass valve tubing from later models will do, Holton never having changed from .585 bore?

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:51 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2017, 06:05AMChris S,

Speaking of valve wraps, do you happen to have any Holton bass valve tubing lying around spare that I could monetarily compensate you for? Or does anyone else, for that matter?

The reason I ask: Remember the long D slide I had made for the second valve of the independent 169? It's a clear blowing improvement over the combination of two valves with standard length slides, but it was made out of spare 88H bits - so the bore is smaller than would match (being .562 vs the desired .585). This is (I feel) readily discerned in the blowing and sound response, and I would like to try it with a valve slide made of correctly-dimensioned parts.

Am I right in thinking that any Holton bass valve tubing from later models will do, Holton never having changed from .585 bore?
Valve tube size changed during the 169 run... I may have tube... we should PM about this.
Chris

ttf_gbedinger · Post by **ttf_gbedinger** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Hey Chris, how's the Brasslab valveset working out?

George

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:55 pm

Quote from: mr.deacon on Apr 05, 2017, 07:34PMBrad is there any particular reason that customer wanted to have both in slide tuning and bell tuning on the same horn? I've seen a couple horns pop up like that and I'm just curious as to the merits of a horn having both instead of just one or the other...
The tuning slide was added a long time ago. I think it has a Bach slide with the Conn bell section if I remember right, no TIS.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:39 am

Quote from: gbedinger on Apr 06, 2017, 03:42PMHey Chris, how's the Brasslab valveset working out?

George

I thought you might be interested.... luckily, they give me just what I was looking for... more slotted and solid in upper dynamics, more matched between open and valve notes. What I lose is the vibrancy and life at very low dynamics.... though it is still great in ppp .... just in a different way. The instrument is physically heavier now too.
I took the valves off my modern Conn, fitting that with the Minick set, built from Conn parts... and have gained a more Conn-like response in the low register of that instrument as a result... so it's a win win.
Chris Stearn

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:50 am

Quote from: blast on Apr 07, 2017, 12:39AMI thought you might be interested.... luckily, they give me just what I was looking for... more slotted and solid in upper dynamics, more matched between open and valve notes. What I lose is the vibrancy and life at very low dynamics.... though it is still great in ppp .... just in a different way. The instrument is physically heavier now too.
I took the valves off my modern Conn, fitting that with the Minick set, built from Conn parts... and have gained a more Conn-like response in the low register of that instrument as a result... so it's a win win.
Chris Stearn

Chris I told Kim that we now need to return to Scotland so I can try the Holton with the new valve set.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:56 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Apr 07, 2017, 04:50AMChris I told Kim that we now need to return to Scotland so I can try the Holton with the new valve set.

No, no, we can come to you

Chris

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:57 am

Quote from: blast on Apr 04, 2017, 06:17AMI have seen Benn's work at Joe's apartment and it is indeed stunning... never seen better custom work.
That sort of work does not come cheap or quick and I suspect the OP is looking for a quick turnaround at modest cost... there are people who can do that kind of work in the UK... but not many.

Chris Stearn

Chris, who would you say is capable of that kind of work in U.K.?......

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:51 am

Quote from: Duffle on Apr 08, 2017, 02:57AMChris, who would you say is capable of that kind of work in U.K.?......

That's not so easy.... Mick Rath is the obvious person, though custom projects will always run second to making his own instruments. Adrian Jarvis does great work, though I don't know how much custom work he does and Andy Clenell in Birmingham is looking like developing that side of things.

Chris Stearn

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:59 am

Seems to me that if Mick is really interested in doing something and an order comes in, he may give it a preference. But it is gonna be expensive...

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:58 pm

Quote from: blast on Apr 08, 2017, 05:51AMThat's not so easy.... Mick Rath is the obvious person, though custom projects will always run second to making his own instruments. Adrian Jarvis does great work, though I don't know how much custom work he does and Andy Clenell in Birmingham is looking like developing that side of things.

Chris Stearn

Mick did a complete rebuild and redesign of a TR 181 for me a few years ago. The end product was (and still is) excellent and I didn't think it was expensive. The best bit was Mick's face when he had asked me when I wanted it done by and my reply was "Whenever it is finished; take your time" I don't think that was the reply he was expecting.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:08 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2017, 06:05AMChris S,

Speaking of valve wraps, do you happen to have any Holton bass valve tubing lying around spare that I could monetarily compensate you for? Or does anyone else, for that matter?

The reason I ask: Remember the long D slide I had made for the second valve of the independent 169? It's a clear blowing improvement over the combination of two valves with standard length slides, but it was made out of spare 88H bits - so the bore is smaller than would match (being .562 vs the desired .585). This is (I feel) readily discerned in the blowing and sound response, and I would like to try it with a valve slide made of correctly-dimensioned parts.

Am I right in thinking that any Holton bass valve tubing from later models will do, Holton never having changed from .585 bore?

Dave, if you are unable to get the bits from Chris, I have a pair of extension slides which were from a TR 169 I had some years ago. It was fitted with 2 pairs of extensions to go into the detachable 2nd valve taking the second valve from E to Eb with the first pair and then to D with the second pair added. The pair I have were the second pair and would only take it down a semitone.

Let me know if you are interested.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:42 pm

Thanks Stew, that might turn out to be very helpful. I'll drop in on Chris then see if more length of tubing needed... It does take quite a bit of tubing to get all the way down to D on a single valve.

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:13 am

She's off to Andy Clennell in a couple of weeks, he has an idea that will sort it.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:08 am

Quote from: chrisniblett on Apr 10, 2017, 03:13AMShe's off to Andy Clennell in a couple of weeks, he has an idea that will sort it.

That's good... Andy seems very keen to do this sort of thing.... he is even talking about building his own bass trombone model.

Chris Stearn

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:43 am

He's working on a modded Bach 50 design/prototype at the mo, some really interesting ideas etc and I'm looking forward to having a honk on it muchly!

ttf_chrisniblett · Post by **ttf_chrisniblett** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:43 am

He's working on a modded Bach 50 design/prototype at the mo, some really interesting ideas etc and I'm looking forward to having a honk on it muchly!