Role of the trombone in Dixieland combo music and improvising.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:43 pm

My school's concert band is rehearsing an arrangement called "At A Dixieland Jazz Funeral" which is arranged for a symphonic wind ensemble and Dixieland combo. I'm playing trombone in the Dixieland combo, and although I have some experience improvising, and in the jazz band, I've never played Dixieland music before.

Any advice for improvising and embellishing I can do in this song; I'd really like to get away from the written part. Also I'd like to know more about what exactly the trombone player's role is in this context. I watched a video by the Jazz at Lincoln Center academy that explained the role of all the instruments pretty well but the trombone player was mostly playing root notes and a bass line type of thing which I would think wouldn't be appropriate if you have a sousaphone in the group as well.

Here is the arrangement we're playing. (Combo sections are at 1:05 and 2:45) https://youtu.be/PJqnlae1A2E

Thanks all.

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:36 am

Here is a definition of the trombone role in the Dixieland ensemble by Danny DImperio

"Trombone
The trombone is best utilized by playing lyrically within the framework of the harmonic roots. He or she therefore improvises sparingly during ensembles and stays out of the registers of the trumpet and clarinet. This is the essence of the tailgate trombone style. An overly enthusiastic trombone player who steps on the notes of his/her other band members has no friends in the Dixieland band. Tailgate trombone playing is an art unto itself."

Actually it is probably truer to say there are two trombone ensemble styles Tailgate and the Jack Teagarden etc. style of ensemble playing, where the approach is quite different but still nobody steps on anybody's toes.

Playing an improvised line in the Dixieland ensemble is not something you can learn in 5 minutes. It is one of those jazz skills that takes many years to perfect. However, I would not want that thought to stop you at least trying.

The first description you obtained for yourself is actually not a bad one.

The two tunes involved are "Just A Closer Walk With Thee" and "When The Saints Go Marching In". Here is Kid Ory playing both tunes. In the first tune the ensemble starts at 4.02. In The Saints, the ensemble starts immediately. You can do no better than copying The Kid! He is one of the pioneers of jazz in New Orleans and the most copied throughout the world for his ensemble lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djbWswYSx_Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94RKxN6KolY

For anyone interested in the subject of the Dixieland Ensemble here is my own description from a book I half wrote a few years back:

"The Ensemble

Usually described as a Dixieland ensemble and having its origins in New Orleans style, it is famously played by the classic front-line of trumpet (or cornet), trombone and clarinet.

The ensemble is often referred to as polyphonic playing, meaning each front-line instrument plays a different melody line simultaneously. In reality the style of playing is much more subtle than this definition suggests and is an acquired art requiring a great deal of skill, sympathetic understanding and experience in order to achieve a properly structured, harmonious interplay.

The ensemble loosely plays the melody. Providing the lead voice is usually the job of the trumpet (cornet) player. The trombone and clarinet have subordinate roles in the collective improvisation. The trumpet often brashly states the melody. The trombone injects harmony notes (counterpoint), rhythmic bass lines and linking phrases. The clarinet plays a counter melody or descant line (obligato) of flowery embellishments, interweaving with the two brass instruments. Everyone must listen very carefully and leave space for the other instruments to play their parts.

The rhythm section provides a steady pulse and the underlying chords (harmony) for the tune. They interact rhythmically with the front line to punctuate phrasing.

The ensemble is usually a statement of the melody, occurring at the beginning and end of a musical piece and the ensembles frame a series of solos. Riffs and long note backings may be played behind the solos. The general effect of a piece is of a gradual crescendo culminating in a last chorus climax. Excitement and fun are key elements!"

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:54 am

I can hardly add anything to what Grah just posted. It's a full semester course in Dixieland.

I tend to liken the role of the trombone to the role of the Euphonium in a Sousa march. Lots of interesting countermelodies.

I just want to add that the New Orleans funeral is in two parts. There is a slow dirge going to the cemetery with the deceased. Then once the body is laid in the ground the vibe becomes quite joyous. The slow hymn becomes a rollicking romp.

If you want to hear some great Dixieland playing, go to www.redhotjazz.com. Find a few key trombonists: Eddie Edwards, Kid Ory, Jack Teagarden, George Brunies, Miff Mole. Recordings are available from each band they have played with.

Enjoy the journey.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:19 pm

check out the Dukes of Dixieland

ttf_Krazzikk · Post by **ttf_Krazzikk** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:31 pm

Thanks for the advice, Graham explained it really clear. I'm just concerned that I'm going to end up playing the same thing the Sousaphone player is playing and muddy the waters.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:34 pm

If you play what's on the ink, you won't step on the Sousaphone.

The Sousaphone will be playing a bass line. Play a countermelody of some sort. On Saints, I'll play an inversion between the arpeggio of the melody (you are the "response" of "call and response". Listen to the Ory recordings Grah listed. Listen to what he does.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:58 am

I've played that one, though it's been a while.

If it's the one I'm thinking, the ink is decent, and lines up nicely with the clarinet and cornet. (trumpet, in the US, but I think it should be cornet)

I'd be inclined to play the ink, so that the ensemble fit is better. Your improv may be more fun, but this one is a combo.

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:28 pm

Dixie in a concert band for a few measures: just blow rhythmically, loud, stupid trombone tricks, etc. It'll sell.

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:43 pm

Quote from: baileyman on Apr 10, 2017, 07:28PMDixie in a concert band for a few measures: just blow rhythmically, loud, stupid trombone tricks, etc. It'll sell.

Sacrilege.

http://www.knowlouisiana.org/entry/jazz-funerals-and-second-line-parades

Here is another role model for you - clarinetist George Lewis, who was one of the main figures of the New Orleans Jazz Revival. Big Jim Robinson was his trombone player:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTkNhdvWhDQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQD1wAkIeZ0

This recording is probably where they got the idea for Concert Band arrangement, although there are very many bands who have recorded similar New Orleans funeral music.

On a sadder note, this is footage of legendary New Orleans clarinetist George Lewis' own jazz funeral in New Orleans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPOCLFmabb0.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:31 pm

The trombone is a valid member of the 'dixieland' ensemble. It provides the bass line and support for the cord tonics (roots), as well as counter melody and lead into phrase changes.

A couple of weeks ago the director of the Big Band I'm in decided we'd do a Mike Tomaro version of "Struttin' With Some Barbecue". Wellll..., the first trombone was away so we had a sub, but come practice time, the sub hands me the dixieland trombone score (for some odd reason I sit to the the right of 1st where 2nd is supposed to be) for the piece saying to me "I don't do this stuff" and she took the 4th trombone part off my stand. Well, the score consisted of a few rest bars hear and there, about 5 bars total of sparse written notes and all the rest of the bars were just chords. Well, don't you know I lost count of the bars about 3/4 the way through a 32 bar trombone solo.

Bass trombone just does not get much practice at improvisation.

This chart is real dixieland ... for those without and ear for the genre. Even the sections where another instrument was to solo, it just showed chords with the note "Noodle around trumpet".

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:41 am

Quote from: Graham Martin on Apr 10, 2017, 08:43PMSacrilege.

...

Agreed. Spoiling Dixie in a concert band is worse than nuts.

Patronizing, even. As in, "Our band is so good and this music is so silly even our guy on a 42B can hit a home run on it."

ttf_mwpfoot · Post by **ttf_mwpfoot** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:19 am

Sometimes I'll focus on harmonizing the lead. This can be nice approach on a ballad. You can contribute to the emotional effect: listen how the tension in Closer Walk With Thee builds builds builds before finally releasing. Your harmony choices should contribute to that and escalate things. Also nice if the band is kind of all over the place: here's the tune everyone, it's nice we should learn it.

Sometimes I'll try and double the bass with embellishment. This can be effective when the bass is stand-up but the bass line is more tuba-oriented. Also works if the tuba player is keeping it very safe but the tune kicks in and wants more. Also nice if the band is kind of all over the place: here's the bass line everyone, it's cool we should learn it.

Mostly I try to react to the tune and lead to the next chord. I think that's our primary role. If the trumpet asks a question, I try and answer it. If the trumpet makes a statement, I ask a question: yes, and? The tuba will generally have the root covered, and the tune has a note in the chord too. So a good destination for leading the chords might be one of the missing tones. Or maybe what you are saying tapers off. Or maybe you start to tell the same story together.

That's how I think of it. And I don't know how to approach any of this smartly unless I really, really, really know the tune. Everyone who used to play this stuff would play it daily and know the tunes as well as we know Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. Some of these songs are dead serious and some are very silly. These gigs go wrong when the players in the band don't know the tunes, and don't care to learn them for next time when they tank, and basically smear every picture with one color: the trombone "thing" vs. the clarinet "thing" vs. the bored tenor player playing bebop licks ...

So listen listen listen to good bands on YouTube and you'll start to hear these sorts of approaches and also learn some tunes and hopefully be on your way.

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:22 pm

Quote from: mwpfoot on Apr 11, 2017, 11:19AMSometimes I'll focus on harmonizing the lead. This can be nice approach on a ballad. You can contribute to the emotional effect: listen how the tension in Closer Walk With Thee builds builds builds before finally releasing. Your harmony choices should contribute to that and escalate things. Also nice if the band is kind of all over the place: here's the tune everyone, it's nice we should learn it.

Sometimes I'll try and double the bass with embellishment. This can be effective when the bass is stand-up but the bass line is more tuba-oriented. Also works if the tuba player is keeping it very safe but the tune kicks in and wants more. Also nice if the band is kind of all over the place: here's the bass line everyone, it's cool we should learn it.

Mostly I try to react to the tune and lead to the next chord. I think that's our primary role. If the trumpet asks a question, I try and answer it. If the trumpet makes a statement, I ask a question: yes, and? The tuba will generally have the root covered, and the tune has a note in the chord too. So a good destination for leading the chords might be one of the missing tones. Or maybe what you are saying tapers off. Or maybe you start to tell the same story together.

That's how I think of it. And I don't know how to approach any of this smartly unless I really, really, really know the tune. Everyone who used to play this stuff would play it daily and know the tunes as well as we know Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. Some of these songs are dead serious and some are very silly. These gigs go wrong when the players in the band don't know the tunes, and don't care to learn them for next time when they tank, and basically smear every picture with one color: the trombone "thing" vs. the clarinet "thing" vs. the bored tenor player playing bebop licks ...

So listen listen listen to good bands on YouTube and you'll start to hear these sorts of approaches and also learn some tunes and hopefully be on your way.

A good approach to the trombone part in a Dixieland ensemble - particularly paragraph 3.

I also like your remark about the players knowing the tunes.

It happens that "Just A Closer Walk With Thee" and "The Saints" are usually amongst the first tunes you learn when playing Traditional Jazz, but you still have to know the history and the feeling behind them, especially when you are recreating a N.O. funeral.

I would also point out that many of the jazz tunes originating from New Orleans are quite complex with several different themes and specific parts, breaks etc. for the different instruments. You absolutely have to know what you are doing with these tunes and there is no place for "loud, stupid trombone tricks". Ever really!

The reason for the sometimes complexity and the different themes in New Jazz Orleans jazz tunes is because of the many musical influences: African Drums, Work Songs, Spirituals, Plantation songs, Marches, Cakewalks, Opera, Creole music, Brass Band music, Cabaret, Minstrel music, Blues Stomps and Ragtime. In terms of the tailgate style, the early jazz trombone players drew quite heavily on the trombone part in Military Marches. I did not get to play any straight music until I had been playing jazz for many years. When I was playing some marches with a concert band in fairly recent years, I suddenly realised that many of Kid Ory's lines were straight out of the trombone parts written by John Philip Sousa for his marches.

And that's not a bad way to think of the trombone part in the Dixieland ensemble for the OP.

While I am talking about New Orleans, I would just like to remind everyone that the New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival is on from April 28 to May 7. If you want to reinfect yourself with the jazz bug, that is something you should not miss. Also popular music fans, because the N.O. influence is right through today's music. My old trumpet playing buddy Derek Winters, who is a ringleader of the New Orleans Jazz movement in the UK and Europe, will be attending. I am sure he will be sitting-in wherever he can. Just say "Hi, from Graham" if you see him.

http://lineup.nojazzfest.com/

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:35 pm

In sum, I don't think you can go wrong if you play what's written. If you do some listening to the links above, you'll feel more confident about inflexion and even gain some courage to vary it a little.

ttf_mwpfoot · Post by **ttf_mwpfoot** » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:17 pm

Quote from: Arranger-Transcriber on Apr 12, 2017, 09:35PMIn sum, I don't think you can go wrong if you play what's written. If you do some listening to the links above, you'll feel more confident about inflexion and even gain some courage to vary it a little.

A fine place to start!

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sat May 13, 2017 8:02 pm

Great topic, and great question. The role of the trombone is to play a counter-line to the melody. Written out Dixieland can be a bit "hokey" so I don't blame you for wanting to break away. One idea is to transcribe some things that you hear another trombone player doing and just incorporate it into your playing.
Doreen Ketchens, Dixieland Crackerjacks, Dukes of Dixieland, Jack Teagarden, Newbirth Brass Band, Treme Brass Band, Glenn David Andrews, Trombone Shorty....

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sat May 13, 2017 8:02 pm

Great topic, and great question. The role of the trombone is to play a counter-line to the melody. Written out Dixieland can be a bit "hokey" so I don't blame you for wanting to break away. One idea is to transcribe some things that you hear another trombone player doing and just incorporate it into your playing.
Doreen Ketchens, Dixieland Crackerjacks, Dukes of Dixieland, Jack Teagarden, Newbirth Brass Band, Treme Brass Band, Glenn David Andrews, Trombone Shorty....