Bone selection in quintet

[ttf_hyperbolica]

I've been partial to tbone quartet and 2 trumpet 2 trombone quartets, but now I have the opportunity to play with a traditional quintet. The selection of an instrument is easier in quartet, as each part has a voice more or less assigned by the range, but in quintet, the bone either blends with the trumpets or links the horn and tuba, with the latter probably being more prevalent. I want to bring a straight, probably .525" bore trombone, maybe even a .508". But I fear there are going to be a lot of Cs and Bs on the staff making a trigger instrument more appropriate. I don't want to be a geek and bring two horns. If I have to play it safe, I'll probably show up with an 88h with a SL2525 slide. Those of you who play in quintets, do any of you get away with straight or smaller bore instruments? Or is there a good reason why most quintets seem to have a standard music school issue 547 w/F?

I suppose the equipment selection of the tuba player might have some influence, for example if he shows up with a 6/4 BBb or an F tuba. At this point I don't have any idea what he's going to use.

[ttf_BGuttman]

I use a Bach 36C in the F-attachment configuration.  Our tuba player is on a Conn 5J, which is pretty small (he's really a Euphonium player).  Blend is nice.

I'm not a fan of big tubas in Quintet.  It sounds like a tuba and 4 other players, not always in cooperation.  When I played tuba parts I played an F-tuba and discovered I blended better with whatever the trombone player was using (mostly a .547 with F).

I've seen a small straight horn used for the 3rd part (in place of a French Horn).  For some rep that actually works well; especially when the 5th part is played by a bass trombone.

Donald Knaub liked to play the 4th part on a single trigger bass trombone.  He claimed it worked better against a large tuba.

Net result: Use what's comfortable.

[ttf_Burgerbob]

I would definitely use an F attachment horn. Trombone parts can be all over the instrument in a quintet setting, don't limit yourself.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Bass might work but there are some very range-y BQ pieces.

I think it depends on you, your playing, the components of your BQ, and their playing.

For example, if your BQ is full of people who would be at home in an orchestra, bring a .547 tenor with an F attachment.

If your group is on the softer side, or if you will be playing mostly baroque or classical transcriptions, bring a .525 bore with an F attachment, if that is appropriate for the group's sound.

I can't say I'd bring a straight tenor to a BQ. I play a lot of BQ rep, some very easy, some very difficult. I can't think of many pieces I'd want to play without an F attachment. Many pieces drop below the staff, so you'd need a different trombone for those pieces anyways. Marches nearly always have a run with B naturals or Cs.

You mentioned an 88H, and I bet a 2547 slide might be just the ticket.

[ttf_paulyg]

Having no f attachment in a quintet is a recipe for a sore elbow (and if you're like me a lot of fracked C's and B's). I've had no problem sounding good with my 88H. The voices should be fairly distinct in this sort of group so don't chase your tail trying to sound like the others!

[ttf_Radar]

On the few Brass quintets I've played on trombone I've used my 88H.  I've actually played more on Tuba and I use a 4/4 size CC Miraphone 186.  A .546 bore horn blends fairly well with my Tuba.  I would go with your 88H if you have one a .525 with F attachment would probably work well also. 

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Quote from: Radar on Aug 16, 2017, 06:05PMOn the few Brass quintets I've played on trombone I've used my 88H.  I've actually played more on Tuba and I use a 4/4 size CC Miraphone 186.  A .546 bore horn blends fairly well with my Tuba.  I would go with your 88H if you have one a .525 with F attachment would probably work well also. 

I have a lot of 525 options, but 88h w/sl2525 and 79h are the main contenders. I'm looking for an excuse to take my 8h w/8" bell and custom slide out of the house. But this may not be the right time for that.

[ttf_anonymous]

I am very fortunate that I get to spend a lot of time playing in brass quintet. I love chamber music and I find the brass quintet to be a wonderful ensemble that allow the trombone to be very expressive.

That said, getting a brass quintet to sound good is really difficult. It is not a brass section and won’t have quite the same solidity that a larger brass ensemble will. That is not the function of the quintet. The brass quintet should be a small ensemble that showcases the diversity of colors that the individual brass instruments can achieve. It should maintain a kind of sonic unity, more than a woodwind quintet has but it also needs to clarify contrapuntal writing, in a way that a string quartet would be hard pressed to achieve.

On the other hand getting a unified group articulation is really challenging. The trumpets can bring clarity that trombone and tuba have to take care to match. Usually some compromise is the best option but attempting to match trumpet clarity is probably a good goal.

Balance is really difficult. All of the instruments have sound that blooms in a slightly different way that changes in every room one plays in. Higher end volumes probably only have a place in rare moments for musical effect since the halls are smaller. Two of the bells are pointing in strange directions and the trumpets usually outnumber everyone.

Intonation is also challenging. Eliminating or minimizing the beats from as many chords as possible makes the group sound way better and helps everyone survive the endurance demands.

Endurance can be problematic. While it isn’t the most difficult ensemble in for endurance a full concert is more like a marathon than a sprint. You are playing almost all of the time.

With these challenges in mind, here is how I would choose a horn for the quintet.

Play the horn that you are most comfortable with. Play the horn that you know how to play in tune. You want to be both solid and flexible with intonation and knowing your horn’s irregularities will help.

Play a horn with clear yet easy articulations and be able to add energy to it without lots of effort

Choose a horn that you don’t have to work too hard to play. Concerts are long and no audience member wants to hear tired brass players.

If you have all of those cared for then play what you want. Play that horn that helps you make a sound that makes you happy to be playing the trombone. In a quintet you are one unique voice in 5. Groups can blend and match with radically different equipment if the players are creative and flexible and the differences can be part of what make music interesting and human.

For what it is worth my quintet plays the serious quintet literature and commissions lots of new works. I play everything (with a very few exceptions) on a Shires Michael Davis trombone (.495 7.5’ bell). I love the sound. Even though I played on big horns for many years the smaller sound just sounds right to me. I look forward to playing it every time I pick it up. It fits in the quintet just fine and the ease of articulation and endurance are nice benefits. I also enjoy that the sound is very different from the horn or the tuba. This doesn’t hurt our ability to play together and the combination can be richer for the differences between the instruments. If I liked a larger sound I would play that kind of horn and fit just fine as well. The group sound would be different but not better or worse.

[ttf_gregs70]

Standard classical repertoire brass quintet - .547 F attachment horn blended best for me.  The one I play in now is more pops (Broadway music, Beatles, dixieland, Weather Report, Little Feat, etc.) I play a .508 with an F.  We have no French horn (I play transcriptions), so since the other bone player has exactly the same horn it works for us. 

[ttf_SilverBone]

I play regularly in brass quintets.  My usual choice is a Shires .547 with a gold brass bell.  It's the same horn I use for symphony work.

When the tuba player in the quintet plays an F tuba, I like the blend better if I switch to a lighter weight yellow brass bell.  Something about the way the overtones line up just feels better.

BQ music can be rangy.  There are a number of pieces for which my first choice would be a .525 horn, and a small number of pieces (jazzy pieces) that would feel best on a .500.

But the .547 is the only horn that I can count on to work with any piece in the book, so that's what I always bring.

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Thanks, guys. The last few responses were exactly what I was looking for. I've played with all these guys before except the tuba player. I know I can play in tune with the lead trumpet because we play in an orchestra together. It looks like out lit will be mainly classical. In tbone quartet, you might have to play anything high or low, but this quintet stuff looks pretty slotted between F under the staff to Bb above tuning Bb. Range is limited by tuba and trumpets.

Anyway, I think I'm leaning towards the 79h. Maybe I'll take my double case and slip in a smaller straight horn just to try. Thx again for your input.

[ttf_Matt K]

79 is a good choice probably.  I'll typically adjust based on the group and what is being played.  I really like meduim bores like the 79 for bq but there are some where the bone is less of a bridge from the horn and more like a second bass voice and then there are others that are raucous(!) traditional jazz type arrangements. For the former, I like a bigger horn and the latter I like a smaller horn but generally they're all doable on the medium bore. 

[ttf_BGuttman]

I agree.  79H is a good choice.  Nice, versatile horn.

[ttf_Posaunus]

Quote from: BGuttman on Aug 17, 2017, 10:13AMI agree.  79H is a good choice.  Nice, versatile horn.

 
Good choice.  Would also work nicely in a quintet if the 5th part is played on bass trombone.  (I like this ensemble - often blends better than tuba!   ) 

[ttf_BGuttman]

Quote from: Posaunus on Aug 17, 2017, 10:23AM
Good choice.  Would also work nicely in a quintet if the 5th part is played on bass trombone.  (I like this ensemble - often blends better than tuba!   ) 


I agree.  I found some pieces seem to work better with bass trombone on the bottom and others with tuba.  Since I used to regularly double between bass trombone and F tuba, I'd bring both to the gig and switch off.  Don't do that any more -- too much shlepping.  Plus, I don't play 5th part in any quintets.

[ttf_daveyboy37]

Depends on the players and equipment in the quintet, and sometimes even the venue. I've played Quintet on a King 3b, Yamaha 640, Bach 42T, and Kanstul 1588.  Currently the kanstul is my favorite because it is lighter in weight and easier to color than even the Yamaha.

[ttf_mr.deacon]

Quote from: hyperbolica on Aug 16, 2017, 06:15PMI'm looking for an excuse to take my 8h w/8" bell and custom slide out of the house. But this may not be the right time for that.
Bahhh you can use the 8H. You can play most of the rep fine but you'll encounter a piece every now and then where you'll either have to get good at faking it or use a horn with an f attachment.

I liken it to using a single valve bass. You're fine most of the time until you actually need the second valve and things start to get tricky for you!

[ttf_anonymous]

We play a wide variety of stuff... weddings, 'real quintet' things, light classical, pops, jazz stuff... Some tunes way high, and stay there, other things below the staff.  I couldn't play our book without a trigger.

For years I used an 88h, and most stuff worked fine, but I always wanted something brighter and moress authentic for the jazz tunes.  Finally moved to a Yamaha 646: .525 with an 8.5" bell.  Works best all around.

For some things I play euphonium... One trumpet plays was a great arranger, and loved to give me pages of arpeggiated backgrounds, and euph was perfect.  And some pieces get really dark, with two flugels and euph, horn & tuba, which is nice. 

John Thompson
Capital Brass - Columbia SC 

[ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist]

I've played in two quintets. One I played all the tuba parts on bass trombone. The other I played regular trombone parts on a large bore. Wasn't a good match for me, but it sounded good to the ensemble.

Personally I would want a good medium-large bore trombone with an F or G att. A lot of sub-.525 horns seem too bright ( unless you have a good .522 which seem to bridge the gap well ) and over .547 like my current large bore set up seems too much for what I would want in a quintet.

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Just wanted to follow up. For the range of music, I definitely need a trigger, so I went with the 88h w/ 525 slide. Works well for the range of styles. Thx for the input.

The tubist showed up with an Eb, and the french horn used some special chamber horn that doesn't play very loud. Trumpets on Bbs, one brought a pic

[ttf_JasonDonnelly]

Although I do not have much brass quintet experience, my $0.02 is that it wouldn't necessarily be faux pas to bring two horns (maybe a .547 with a trigger and a straight .500 or .508), depending on what you need to play.

Not that there aren't merit to playing a large variety of ranges/styles on one horn, but if the trumpets are switching horns, what's stopping you?

[ttf_BGuttman]

Quote from: JasonDonnelly on Sep 27, 2017, 07:37PM... but if the trumpets are switching horns, what's stopping you?

You can carry 3 trumpets in the space required for one trombone.

I find my Bach 36C (with the F-attachment in place) is versatile enough to play all 4th part Quintet music.  Why make things hard on yourself?

[ttf_mr.deacon]

Quote from: JasonDonnelly on Sep 27, 2017, 07:37PMAlthough I do not have much brass quintet experience, my $0.02 is that it wouldn't necessarily be faux pas to bring two horns (maybe a .547 with a trigger and a straight .500 or .508), depending on what you need to play.

Not that there aren't merit to playing a large variety of ranges/styles on one horn, but if the trumpets are switching horns, what's stopping you?
Have you ever seen anyone do that?

I think that falls under the category of just because you can doesn't mean you should.

He also could carry around a pocket full of mouthpieces and switch out for every song but I don't think any of us would recommend he do that.

[ttf_anonymous]

Like I said before, I often bring a trombone and a euph, because that worked for those pieces.  Oh, and we had a first trumpet player who brought a trumpet, a flugel, a pic, and sometimes a cornet, and lined them to build a little wall of instruments.

[ttf_gregs70]

Quote from: JTBandMusic on Sep 28, 2017, 01:48PMLike I said before, I often bring a trombone and a euph, because that worked for those pieces.  Oh, and we had a first trumpet player who brought a trumpet, a flugel, a pic, and sometimes a cornet, and lined them to build a little wall of instruments.

Yep, our 1st trumpet has trumpet, flugel, and pic.  Our second trumpet is threatening to bring a flugelhorn too.  FWIW, we have two trombones and no French horn, I play transcribed horn parts.  Lately I was asked to be more horn-like and play with a bucket mute, which actually sounds pretty good.  It makes the soft high stuff easier to play since I can play a little louder, and since I am faking a horn part I have an excuse to miss partials and crack notes just like they do!

[ttf_MikeBMiller]

I have used everything from a straight 3B to a 547 w/f in quintet. Mostly I use my 36BO.

[ttf_MikeBMiller]

I have used everything from a straight 3B to a 547 w/f in quintet. Mostly I use my 36BO.