New member with a question about a Shires Bass Trom

[ttf_anonymous]

Hi all, new member here from Tasmania, Australia.
I've just got back into playing with a brass band after taking a break for about 15yrs. After playing a roughly 27yo Besson Sovereign Bb/F for the last year, I've been upgraded to a S.E SHires Bb/F/Gb Bass Trom.
It's one hell of a weapon, but I have a lot to learn about the new trigger, and my larger lungs are on backorder!!!
The question I have is how to identify the actual model I am playing. Looking at the website, the Bass Troms all look very similar, so is there an easy way to determine what I have?
The Trom is about 1.5yrs old, and in immaculate condition, as you would expect, as it has not been played much for the last 8-12mths.
Any assistance would be appreciated.

[ttf_Burgerbob]

Each component (bell, valve section, slide, tuning slide) has it's own designation. Other than a couple artist instruments with a certain selection of parts, there is no different model of Shires bass trombone.

You can see where the part designations are on the different parts of the instrument- under the bell near the back bell brace, on the hand grip area of the slide, looking at the valves (they are pretty distinctive!) and a little marking somewhere on the tuning slide.

[ttf_BillO]

I think Aidan meant there is no common or stock model of Shires custom bass trombone.  Including leadpipies there are literally thousands of combinations available.  Look at each of the parts.  They will have a number of some sort on them.  List these numbers for the slide, bell, valve, tuning slide, and leadpipe and even mouthpiece.  There are some here that will be able to give you the relative characteristics of your particular instrument if they join the thread.

[ttf_Zandit75]

Thanks Guys, most appreciated.
I'll go over it with more detail when I get home.
I did find the number on the bell, but I'll confirm it all later.
Thanks again!

[ttf_JWykell]

Their website has explanations of each set of parts. https://www.seshires.com

[ttf_Zandit75]

Alrighty, lets see what we got....

Valve System - Independent Axial Flow Valves
Bell - B117GM - Wide Taper, for a broad sound, Soldered Bead, Gold Brass combining many of the characteristics of yellow and red brass for a very balanced and flexible sound, Medium Weight, 9.5" Bell.
Slide - B62 - .562-inch bore bass handslide. No other markings which indicates it's a standard weight slide, with yellow-brass tubes, nickel-silver sleeves, and a nickel-silver crook.
Tuning Slide - B - Bass Trombone - No other markings, so it's safe to assume it's standard.
Lead Pipe - The one fitted at the moment is marked with 3L - .547-inch bore, compatible with large-shank mouthpiece, largest venturi diameter—large for a broad sound, long length for a more centered sound and feel, 9.75 inches long.

Included in the case is only one other lead pipe which simply has the number 2 on it, meaning it has a medium venturi diameter for an open sound, generally the most popular size.

I'm not sure where the other lead pipe has gone, will have to check with the guy who had it previously.

Thanks to everyone pointing me in the right direction!
Let see where this takes me!

[ttf_Zandit75]

So, after talking with the Band Secretary, she confirms the Trom is a TBBSCA.
I'm certainly no top end player, and I feel this Shires is way overkill for both myself, and the band in general(money wise that is), but I've got no intentions on handing it back!!
Put it this way, if I had been the one picking this instrument out, I wouldn't have even tried this model based on price alone!
 
I was using a Dennis Wicks 4AL MP on the Besson, and I have a Schilke 59 for the Shires. I've been swapping between the two on the Shires to try and find the best fit for me.
When playing at home, I'm using a practice mute, as the wife is NOT a fan!!
I'm not familiar with the properties of either MP, but I certainly get a better, clearer sound from the 4AL in the mid range, but have no where near the range of notes that I get with the 59, does this sound right?
I've yet to play my full range without the practice mute, but I can hit a double pedal Bb using the 59, yet struggle getting to a Pedal F with the 4AL. The Bass notes are so easy to hit with the Schilke.

I'm thinking the practice mute is helping by giving me some back pressure to play against. Is this beneficial to my playing?

Some feedback for this inexperienced buffoon would be appreciated!

[ttf_Burgerbob]

The Wick 4AL is much too small for bass trombone- it may be easier to play higher up, but at a loss of sound and as you noticed, range.

The Schilke is fine for now!

A practice mute is not necessarily bad, but I would make to practice more without it than with it.

[ttf_Zandit75]

Thanks Bob, appreciate the feedback!

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Quote from: Zandit75 on Sep 14, 2017, 04:44PM
It's one hell of a weapon, but I have a lot to learn about the new trigger, and my larger lungs are on backorder!!!


"Remember, your trombone is not a weapon!"

-Ben van Dijk

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

A word of dissent with Burgerbob's advice-

You've had 15 years away from the horn. You will need time to reacquaint yourself with consistent playing-- and a slightly smaller mouthpiece will give the edge in endurance, and core to the sound. Endurance will give you more drive to practice.

You're playing in a brass band? Likely 99.999% of the time the "heavy lifting" will be done by the Eb basses and BBb basses. The bass bone is added to the mix for more punch on a tutti part where Eb basses do the hard work.
( And if you look at the score of the pieces you'll see that a bass trombonist in brass band can give much more effect, when played up an octave from the basses, doubling the parts, but with twice the force. The audience will never know you're not playing the lowest pedal tones, but they will know that you're playing things up an octave-- in the staff--- and giving it some edge on the tutti.)

My advice? Forget the stock numbers. Play the 4AL and enjoy the ride. Some time years from now, when you have ears of practice under your belt, and lots and lots of fun rehearsals, you'll be better able to get into the Schilke 59, whould you want to do so THEN.

 Forget what horn you have in your hands. Forget the parts numbers. Just play. Just go to rehearsal and blooooooooow.

As for the long term advice? Two of the greatest bass trombonists who ever lived, Alan Ostrander and Ray Premru, both made careers spanning decades in the toughest environments ever....on Bach 2G mouthpieces. The Wick 4AL is larger than a Bach 3G, most folks forget that--- and they just read the numbers on the side of the thing, without having ever played a Bach 2G themselves.
Forget the numbers.
Just practice and enjoy the experience.
Some of the advice you will get on internet chat rooms should always be read with disclaimers. Disclaimers like: The following advice will be applicable if you intend on pursuing a career as a professional in the USA or as a teacher in the USA.

ZAndit75, just make things as easy as possible for yourself until you get back into shape, and enjoy the process. Enjoy the rehearsals, enjoy the friendships in a brass band. Enjoy the pints. Oh yes, enjoy the pints.
Forget about judging yourself by the qualities required to attempt to be an American professional.

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

Well...a 4AL really is a tenor mouthpiece. A small bass mouthpiece will match with the instrument better and actually be more efficient.

Is the leadpipe marked B3L or just 3L? A plain 3L is for a .547 slide, not a .562, and you will have trouble getting a clear sound with it because it's not sealing properly. You need a leadpipe that starts with a B. I would also recommend something other than a B3L. Try a B1 or B2, or if you can get your hands on one, a B1.5.

[ttf_BillO]

Minor profile differences aside, a Denis Wick 4AL is pretty much the same as a Bach 4G (I have both here).

A 4AL might work okay on an old G bass, but would not get the best out of a big modern bass like the Edwards.  However, it might still be good for playing older brass band music where something like an old G bass was assumed.

A 3G, 2G or 1.5G would be better mouthpieces on the small side for a modern bass.

[ttf_Zandit75]

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Sep 22, 2017, 06:12AMWell...a 4AL really is a tenor mouthpiece. A small bass mouthpiece will match with the instrument better and actually be more efficient.

Is the leadpipe marked B3L or just 3L? A plain 3L is for a .547 slide, not a .562, and you will have trouble getting a clear sound with it because it's not sealing properly. You need a leadpipe that starts with a B. I would also recommend something other than a B3L. Try a B1 or B2, or if you can get your hands on one, a B1.5.

Lead pipe was only marked with 3L, however I have changed that one out for a standard 2.
I'm struggling to see how you could have a .562 bore lead pipe in any of the slides. If it's the same size bore as my slide, it shouldn't physically be able to slide inside the bore of the slide?

[ttf_Matt K]

Quote from: Zandit75 on Sep 23, 2017, 10:45PMLead pipe was only marked with 3L, however I have changed that one out for a standard 2.
I'm struggling to see how you could have a .562 bore lead pipe in any of the slides. If it's the same size bore as my slide, it shouldn't physically be able to slide inside the bore of the slide?

You can insert a smaller bore pipe into a larger one. It won't seal well but it can 'physically' be done

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

You need a leadpipe that begins with the letter B.

[ttf_Matt K]

Quote from: Zandit75 on Sep 23, 2017, 10:45PMLead pipe was only marked with 3L, however I have changed that one out for a standard 2.
I'm struggling to see how you could have a .562 bore lead pipe in any of the slides. If it's the same size bore as my slide, it shouldn't physically be able to slide inside the bore of the slide?

Oh I see where your confusion is now upon reading it.  When you buy a .562 pipe, it basically means that its very slightly smaller than .562. It means its designed to seat in a slide of that size. Ideally there would be no gap between the inner bore of the slide and the end of the leadpipe but its a lot easier to say .562 than .5619999999 or whatever small tolerance that would be!

[ttf_Zandit75]

Thanks guys, I'll look into it further.
I'm guessing we either had the incorrect lead pipes supplied with the Trom, or others have been purchased for this trom for some reason.
I only have two of the lead pipes, a 2, and a 3L.
Seems unusual that tenor sized lead pipes have been supplied with a Bass Trom.

[ttf_mr.deacon]

Could you take pictures of the ring at the top of the pipes?

It's a huge waste of money to buy additional pipes when it's possible you do actually have B3L and B2 pipes but you're just not seeing the B when you read them.

[ttf_Zandit75]

Quote from: mr.deacon on Sep 24, 2017, 04:50PMCould you take pictures of the ring at the top of the pipes?

It's a huge waste of money to buy additional pipes when it's possible you do actually have B3L and B2 pipes but you're just not seeing the B when you read them.
Yep, I'll do that later tonight when I finish up at the gym.

[ttf_Zandit75]

Apologies, this completely slipped my mind.
I've double checked things, and the #2 lead pipe I have in the bone is definitely a B2. The B was hidden under a discolouration on the lead pipe.
The 3L that I removed only has those markings, there is definitely no B stamped into it. I compared the outlet of the two pipes, and they are identical, so I am confident that they are Bass Lead Pipes.

Going forward, I have decided to just use the Schilke MP, and the last couple of weeks have seen steady improvement. I was talking with the band secretary, who also looks after alot of the music for the band, and mentioned I should see what the band has in the archives for solos.
The next time I see her, she hands me "Minnie the Moocher"!!
I would call myself an average or above average player, but this is one of those simpler, yet effective and entertaining pieces to play out front of our band, and it looks like that is exactly going to happen for our upcoming Xmas concert!!
Tuesday night will be the first time the band gets a look at the piece, so I have been practicing daily. I'm starting to get my head around using the second trigger, and combining both triggers for certain notes to minimise slide movements.

As Bones mentioned, I'm just playing. And loving it!
Thank you everyone for your contributions, and advice, everything is being considered!!

[ttf_Zandit75]

Apologies, this completely slipped my mind.
I've double checked things, and the #2 lead pipe I have in the bone is definitely a B2. The B was hidden under a discolouration on the lead pipe.
The 3L that I removed only has those markings, there is definitely no B stamped into it. I compared the outlet of the two pipes, and they are identical, so I am confident that they are Bass Lead Pipes.

Going forward, I have decided to just use the Schilke MP, and the last couple of weeks have seen steady improvement. I was talking with the band secretary, who also looks after alot of the music for the band, and mentioned I should see what the band has in the archives for solos.
The next time I see her, she hands me "Minnie the Moocher"!!
I would call myself an average or above average player, but this is one of those simpler, yet effective and entertaining pieces to play out front of our band, and it looks like that is exactly going to happen for our upcoming Xmas concert!!
Tuesday night will be the first time the band gets a look at the piece, so I have been practicing daily. I'm starting to get my head around using the second trigger, and combining both triggers for certain notes to minimise slide movements.

As Bones mentioned, I'm just playing. And loving it!
Thank you everyone for your contributions, and advice, everything is being considered!!