shipping your horns

[ttf_shoy]

Lesson learned the hard way!
I'm having a very difficult time resolving a claim with UPS. Trombone was in a coffin case filled with material to keep parts from coming loose. Air-filled packing material was between the case and the box edge. Horn must been thrown or dropped from a significant distance. Bell ended up being crinkled fairly significantly. Matter was supposed to be resolved in 5-10 business days - has now dragged into its third week. UPS has a BIG office of redundancy office. 

Today I was told to use a NEW box, doubled walled, rated for a certain crush factor, with approved fill material 2" in diameter between the case and box, with approved fill material inside the case. All this so they be as careless as they want when handling my package and not be held accountable. UGH!!!!

[ttf_JWykell]

Their goal is probably not to be able to be careless. It's probably to sell new boxes, and get your package large enough to add oversize charges, or to get you to pay them to pack it.

[ttf_ghmerrill]

This is just a sign that management knows the capabilities, skills, and attitudes of its employees responsible for handling an item at every stage of shipping.  They also know the trainability of these employees.  Compelling extra care and expense on the part of the customer is just one more way of correcting for failures at other points in the chain.

I just went through a bizarre experience lately in attempting to ship some small packages of some materials regarded as "hazardous" to my son who had recently moved to Seattle.  The movers wouldn't take these, but all federal regulations allow them to be shipped with the proper packing and labeling.  For one, UPS would ship it, but USPS would not.  For a second, USPS would ship it, but UPS would not.  For the third (model rocket engines for my son's young children), neither would ship it.  (Note that he had received these via UPS from Amazon, for whom he's now working!)  I talked to the special hazardous items team at UPS, and read them their own documentation in which both model rocket engines and canisters of camp stove full (isobutane) are specifically mentioned.  But they refused to ship them for me because I didn't "have a contract with them".

Of course, when I took the one package into the UPS Customer Care Center near me (45 minute one-way trip), appropriately labeled as "ORM-D -- Small Arms Ammunition", they accepted it without blinking an eye or inspecting it in any way.  But I had to make the trip to the CC Center to ship it.

Shipping has gotten very confusing, largely incoherent, and expensive.  It may be worth creating a business just to be able to ship certain things (at potentially lower rates?).

[ttf_BGuttman]

I don't know that you have to have a business as much as a UPS account.  They put a program in your computer that prints labels and documentation (and even bills you).  I know when I used my Lab's account it generally cost me about half of what it would directly from UPS (and even less than the UPS "store").

[ttf_M.R.Tenor]

Usually I use a piece of cardboard cut into a wedge and wrapped into a cone shape to slide into the bell of the instrument in the case to absorb the energy from a drop. It'll crinkle the cardboard instead of the brass. That and lots of packed air inside the case itself to keep the horn from moving and colliding with something.

Basic physics says that the combined weight of the horn and the case together will protect the horn from high forces as long as it's secure inside. I usually pack the inside of the case well, and then just wrap a couple layers of big bubble wrap, 1" or more around the case. Cut cardboard to the slimmest fit I can get around all of that.

Bonus points for extending the case handle outside of the cardboard so they have somewhere to grab minimizing chances of drops. You can also use a section of rope taped all the way around the case for a handle. Duct tape the grip point and write HANDLE on the outside of the box with arrows pointing to it. The guys in the trucks really appreciate things like this, and may be a little bit nicer with it.

FRAGILE doesn't really mean much to most of the workers in shipping, according to my uncle who used to work for UPS. IF you're really worried about getting insurance in a case, you have to let them pack it for you, and insure it for the full price of a new replacement instrument. It can get quite costly, but they're in it to make money. Apart from USPS of course, who seem to be constantly losing money.

A huge problem is the retail workers behind the counter not knowing all the policies on shipping. The most reliable way I've found is to just do it all online, with a UPS or USPS account.

[ttf_bubbachet]

Quote from: M.R.Tenor on Sep 15, 2017, 10:58AMApart from USPS of course, who seem to be constantly losing money.


The way the USPS is funded, government funding and subsidies are counted as revenue. As federal support for the Postal Service has been reduced, it appears as a revenue loss for them.

It's a really goofy accounting artifact.

[ttf_Ellrod]

I received a horn that was damaged in exactly this way this spring.

The vendor had left the horn in its case with UPS to pack and ship. UPS put a minimal amount of bubble wrap around the case, and put it in the box. Somewhere during the trip across the continent, the box was dropped, damaging the bell. The vendor initially agreed to accept the horn back, but, at the last moment, changed his mind, accusing me of dropping the horn.

I think it is up to the vendor to make sure the horn is packed properly. Good sturdy box, lots of bubble wrap, lots of styrofoam chips. The cardboard cone sounds like a good idea (there really isn't much room in most cases for additional cushioning). This can get a little pricy, because a bigger, heavier box is required, but I've never seen a problem where the horn has been adequately packed.

[ttf_BillO]

I just had a trombone shipped from Hawaii (yes, again) that did not come through unscathed.  It has two small reverse creases in the bell.  Like it was dropped from a fair distance landing on the tuning slide end.  In my estimation this was well packed in a very sturdy outer box, and lot of paper and bubble wrap and an uber tough case.  It goes to show no matter how well you pack something the carrier can sometimes find a way to damage it.  In this case it was ebay's horrid global shipping program.  Beware of this mess.  Lord knows how many carriers were actually involved.  I see labels for at least 3 on the box.  How can they possibly ascertain which of them is responsible?

Their solution is to give me a full refund and send it back to the seller who will be out at least his shipping costs and have a damaged trombone for his efforts.  This has me plenty boiling.  The vendor should not be on the hook for ebay's foul-up.  Plus, I don't want to return it.  I love the trombone and the fix should be cheap and invisible.  However, that does not seem to be an option.  So, either I or the vendor are on the hook for this and ebay scuttles off with our money and assumes no liability for their f'up.

So much for their 'insured' shipping.  Azzholes!

[ttf_tbathras]

Quote from: ghmerrill on Sep 15, 2017, 10:31AMThis is just a sign that management knows the capabilities, skills, and attitudes of its employees responsible for handling an item at every stage of shipping.  They also know the trainability of these employees.  Compelling extra care and expense on the part of the customer is just one more way of correcting for failures at other points in the chain.

Before people light off on the UPS workers - of which my father has been one of for 30 years - there is WAY more to it than the people.  Most damage comes from boxes shifting in transit in vehicles or in the handling plants, like falling from conveyors, etc.

Don't assume.

That said, UPS doesn't wan to pay out claims.

[ttf_ctivey]

Quote from: Ellrod on Sep 15, 2017, 11:38AMThe vendor initially agreed to accept the horn back, but, at the last moment, changed his mind, accusing me of dropping the horn.

That's rather terrifying to folks who live in the middle of nowhere like me and are reliant on shipments from vendors. Would this have been any of the main vendors with which we trombonists might routinely do business?

[ttf_Ellrod]

Quote from: ctivey on Sep 15, 2017, 01:15PMThat's rather terrifying to folks who live in the middle of nowhere like me and are reliant on shipments from vendors. Would this have been any of the main vendors with which we trombonists might routinely do business?

No.

[ttf_ghmerrill]

Quote from: tbathras on Sep 15, 2017, 12:13PMBefore people light off on the UPS workers - of which my father has been one of for 30 years - there is WAY more to it than the people.  Most damage comes from boxes shifting in transit in vehicles or in the handling plants, like falling from conveyors, etc.

Don't assume.

That said, UPS doesn't wan to pay out claims.

I have to say that the UPS drivers (i.e., the guys who actually make the home deliveries to us) have improved greatly over the past 10 years or so.  Instead of coming up the driveway and actually leaving the package on our deck or in the yard, some of them used to just throw it in weeds in the ditch behind the (rural) mailbox down at the road.  (Yeah, I know they weren't "supposed" to do that.  But that's just my point.)   Sometimes we would see this, and sometimes not.  We did have a couple of instances where sellers sent replacement items, and only some time later did we discover a UPS delivery somewhere in the ditch.  So definitely some things have improved.

That being said, it seems to me that damage to a shipment is -- except in very unusual circumstances -- ALWAYS the result of HUMAN error.  The vehicles don't pack themselves.  The conveyor belts don't decide to toss things off onto the ground.  Machinery in plants really isn't smart enough to bear responsibility for damage it's involved in.  It's the people that work in the company and that do the jobs, including the using and maintaining of machinery.  Some of these people are in management and some of them aren't.  But (except in the case of "acts of God" -- in the legal sense) it's ALWAYS the people who have responsibility in one way or another.  The difference between a good company and a bad company always comes down to the people -- and that includes management from the highest level (which makes and approves policies) to the guy who decides to throw something in a ditch -- or not.

I don't have an axe to grind against UPS, and in fact I think they've improved in various areas across the years (including innovative use of sophisticated technology).  But they're very far from perfect and focus much more on commercial accounts than on individuals.

By the way, I do have a UPS account -- though no longer a commercial one.

[ttf_hyperbolica]

I've shipped dozens of horns both in and out, and I've only had a problem twice. One time someone put a duo gravis in a box with a bag of mouthpieces, and didn't put enough packaging in to keep things from flying around. Wow, what a mess. That was just sheer ignorance. Another time the horn was packed well, but one of the internal restraints jostled loose, and dented the bell. The moral is that most people know what they're doing, and even sometimes if you know what you're doing, things just go wrong. I've never actually made use of insurance. Shipping damage is generally relatively minor, if disappointing. It's cheap to get it fixed, but you'll always know deep down that the bell was crinkled.