Earl Williams Trombone

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:08 pm

Awesome find, John!!!!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:29 pm

Williams folks should check out this post about a Bundy horn I found with a Williams slide......

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,50308.0.html

mark

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:38 am

ok whats the news
john duda moving to oregon ??????????????????????????????????
the callichio//williams operation ?????????????????????????????????????

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:41 am

Wow, that's news to me!

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:50 am

That's news to me too! I'm still waiting for my 8 1/2" bell! I hope he takes the Williams tooling with him because he makes great trombones and I wanted to order a couple more!!!

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:33 pm

Looks like it is true! Going up to Canby Or. He is taking all the Calicchio, and Williams toolong with him. He and Joe have been friends for years. Could not think of a better partnership to make horns.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:00 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on Mar 15, 2010, 12:33PMLooks like it is true! Going up to Canby Or. He is taking all the Calicchio, and Williams toolong with him. He and Joe have been friends for years. Could not think of a better partnership to make horns.

Cool! It sounds like a good move for him. Interestingly, according to a guitar maker friend who lives there, there are a lot of instrument makers of all kinds in Oregon. It must be something in the air.

BTW, last Fall, John D went to show Joe how to make bass trombones. I wonder if we're going to see some 10's coming out of that shop? Or maybe that's more wishful thinking.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Last time I was at the Marcinkiewicz shop, there was talk about making a trombone in the air.

Whenever John Duda makes it to Canby, I sense another short road trip from Portland coming on.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:44 pm

Quote from: SilverBone on Mar 15, 2010, 04:44PMLast time I was at the Marcinkiewicz shop, there was talk about making a trombone in the air.

Whenever John Duda makes it to Canby, I sense another short road trip from Portland coming on.

Please, please, please let us know what's going on over there.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:18 pm

I would be happy to do that off line

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:23 pm

Hi all,

Joe was talking about making trombones when I visited his shop in the summer of 96'. I know he said he was making rotor valves for Blessing, which of course was a huge improvement of their in house valves. Joes got some great manufacturing equipment, and he produces beautiful trumpets, cornets and flugels. I don't see how a partnership with Joe could be a bad thing.

I would certainly go down and check out the shop. And I live 500 miles round trip...

Benn

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:04 am

here's some quick snaps of the Williams 7 that just sold on ebay

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:41 am

Wow! Another great addition to your collection. Congratulations.

Richard

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:13 am

Sweet !

T.

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:36 am

Wow she's in great condition?

How does it play?

ttf_lingon · Post by **ttf_lingon** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:20 pm

That Selmer Williams again. Check the following listing, it is not a trombone but an old ad for Selmer. Notice the Williams grip:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1941-SELMER-U-S-Triple-Threat-Trombone-Ad_W0QQitemZ350323846852QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5190edaec4

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:48 pm

I wonder if Selmer got a cease and desist from Earl on this. He applied for the curved grip patent on January 4th 1928 and it was granted on November 5th 1930. The date of the newspaper in April 1943. 15 years after his patent!

I attached a copy of his US patent for the grip. If anyone is interested I have copies of all of his patents. I would be glad to email them to anyone who would like them.

ttf_john sandhagen · Post by **ttf_john sandhagen** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:56 pm

In the ad (blow it up, #2) it says "made by Earl Williams".

Who bought the ad?

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:04 pm

Man that was a good catch John! At least we know where these odd balls came from now.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:35 am

Hi All,

Maybe this should go in the Accessories category but Dave Ashley mentioned using a nickel Shires #2 leadpipe in his Williams 6 in this thread so I'll post my experience with it here too. First of all, thank you Dave for mentioning the Shires. I bought both a nickel #2 and a brass #2 for my 6 (it took two months to get them from Shires -- what's with that?). Both of them blow great -- very open and very even up and down the entire range. They might even give me a bigger sound than my old pipe, which is surprising because the big sound is what I liked about my old pipe. I tried going back to my old leadpipe to see how it compared but I switched back to the Shires after about 10 minutes. There was no comparison: the two Shires were the clear winners.

I used the nickel pipe in the last jazz band rehearsal and loved the sound I was getting -- brighter and more focused and I could keep up with the trumpets. Right after that rehearsal, I went to a brass quintet rehearsal so I switched to the brass pipe and loved what I was hearing in that setting.

So at this point, I've tried about 20 leadpipes in my 6 and have found that both Shires #2 leadpipes work best for me in the context for which I bought them.

Thanks again, Dave, for the great tip. It's working out very well for me.

And to John Noxon, I think I finally found the right pipes for me. No, really, these are it.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:28 pm

Glad it finally worked out for you!! We'll see.......

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:11 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on Mar 27, 2010, 03:28PMGlad it finally worked out for you!! We'll see.......

ttf_Bob Riddle · Post by **ttf_Bob Riddle** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:14 am

Question for people with Wallace/Williams knowledge? What would a fair asking price be on a Wallace/Williams friction fit TIS horn? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Bob

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:22 am

Quote from: Bob Riddle on Apr 06, 2010, 09:14AMQuestion for people with Wallace/Williams knowledge? What would a fair asking price be on a Wallace/Williams friction fit TIS horn? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Bob
Gold Plated? Lacquer? Original? Refurbished?
Many differing factors.

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:57 pm

It here! Very nice! Serial number 112 ? Two small patches on the hand slide crook. Counter weight needs to be solder on straight. Bell is very nice with some small dents where the slide banged into it in the case. .005 bore. Slide alignment is passable to pretty good. One small wear spot on the stockings. Engraving is very nice, and the whole dang deal is GOLD plated.

Would love to know what year this one was made. John????

This horn sounds great and plays very much like the 40H only better. I think this one will become my favorite. I'll put a couple more shots up of the slide later today. Now I have to call my brass tech.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:21 pm

The Williams and Wallace began in 1928. Went about 10 years, until Earl went to work for the "War Department" which near as I can tell was about 1938 or 1939, then a couple of years off until late 1941 or early 1942.

With a serial number that low I would hazard a guess between 1928 and 1930. No serial number records exist so it is really hard to tell. Very nice horn you found there. You mentioned a .500 bore, that was really ahead of its time in the 1930's. I have a dual bore and a .522 from the mid 1930's. Not many doing that at that time. The horn Spike Wallace played was a .565 straight (no Valve) horn made by Earl that started all of this stuff.

Which tuning in the slide mechanism do you have? The "U" shaped bracket or a small wing nut? I have seen both through out the Wallace era.

If you would like any information on John "Spike" Wallace let me know and I can email it to you. I have his Obit from the Times, compliments of John Lowe, and a write up from "Overture" which is Local 47's news letter.

These old Wallace horns are players for the most part. Some of the slides are heavy but they still play very well. Most were Gold plated a few in Lacquer and very few in Silver. You have a real find there, Enjoy!

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:52 pm

It has the u shaped mechanism.

Did these horns serial number start with 001? Or did they start from 100? Seems I read they started from 100, or maybe just the trumpets, or later models.???

As far as the bore goes, I don't have a digital calipers but the ruler I used is a good one. The inside diameter seems to be .500 I'll have it verified up at Danny O's.

It has the big W counterweight. I love the arrowhead one. Something to live for.

Back a few posts it was mentioned that the slides for these horns need to be fixed. Anything in particular? This one seems pretty darn good.

Also what case did this beauty come in, any idea?

And how rare are the mouthpieces? I would love to have one to go with it.

Also if they made about one horn a week as I read, would that make mine from 1930?

Thanks, Dan

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:05 pm

I think it's really great that these old horns are showing up and going to people who will use them!!! Beautiful horn, Dan! Congratulations.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:23 pm

Nice Dan, VERY NICE!

Welcome to the "W" Country Club.

She's a beauty!

I can only imagine, that the patches are maybe covering some red rot on the crook. My '46 Super has some red rot in the crook too, about the same area as the higher patch on yours. Found me a factory slide crook, just gotta get it installed. If you crook is gold plated, not sure if I'd mess with it. Prolly leave it all original (but I'd ask John N. what he'd do - he'll steer ya right).

Congrats bro!
T

PS Sell it to Koda for $25K (cash)

Just kiddin. Make it $50K (no paypal).

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:00 pm

The Wallace Wm's horns started at 001. The only reason I know this is I own number 19, and DJ used to have number 16 I think it was. As far a 1 per week I don't have any idea. On the later horns each model had its own serial number run. So you could see a 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or a 10 with the same number. Now I have also seen the same models with duplicate serial numbers. These were mostly model 1, 2, 3 from what I have seen. The model is stamped above the serial number. I don't know if theses also were like the older horns or all were consecutive. I have never seen a Wallace Wm's with a duplicate serial number,. or two different models with the same number. Koda I think it was had a 1055 and so did Dave Ashley. I have seen a couple of other like that too. But there are just not enough of the Wallace Wm's horns around to know.

To really measure the bore you would use a telescopic gage set. It expands inside the tube and then measure that with a caliper or micrometer. If you go to www.use-enco.com and search for telescoping gage sets you will see what that is, if you don't know.

As far as "fixing the slide", I am unaware of anything in particular that is a recurring thing. These horns were very well made as you can see. If it made it this long in that good of shape it is OK! Be careful who you use to do the repair. A TIS horn is a lot more complicated than a modern horn. Because you now have 6 tubes to keep straight, not just 4. I would recommend John Upchurch or John Sandhagen. Both have experience with this style of horn. I don't know your location so you may have an excellent repair man there too. The gold plate also comes off very easily during repairs. Earl used for the most part King cases and a few from Olds. He worked for Olds in LA and Fullerton.

Also I see your spitvalve has been changed from the original. The original had a ball on the end of the rod. I will attach a couple of picture for you to check out.

One clue to age can be the hand grip. If it sez Patent applie/pending or has the patent number on it. The grip patent was applied for on Jan 4th 1928 and granted on Nov 25 1930. I have copies of all of Earls patents if you would like them I can email them as a .pdf file

If you would like more or different pictures of any of my horns let me know and I can email them to you
!

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:13 pm

Thanks Richard, this is definitely a player. I feel very lucky to have it. Now I want a .522 bore WW.

Troy- you still hold the record for the deal of the century. The crook is gold plated also, but a lighter gold than the bell. I think I'm going to let Dan O tell what can be done. Spend money to make it right. I just gave it a bath and polished it. Its quite stunning.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:11 am

Quote from: Dan Martin on Apr 13, 2010, 08:13PMTroy- you still hold the record for the deal of the century. I don't think I could top that one again (or even duplicate it).

I had my Williams slide worked on at my local brass tech. He done a good job, but I really have to keep it fresh (clean it each time I play it, or it slows down a little).

I'll probably send mine to John S. sometime in the future, since it has the 6 tubes to align (TIS) vs the 4 tubes in modern horns. Possibly even a re-tube job to make it super fast, but I'm not sure how available/costly .481 tubes are.

John Upchurch done a Super Olds slide for me (done a great job), but another trombonist went to send him an older horn (Holton Revelation), and was told he wouldn't work on it since parts were not readily available. I'm not even sure John U. would work on the very old ones...

T.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:59 pm

John Upchurch and John Sandhagen have done my Williams stuff for a few years now. .480, .485 and .489 tubes are available from Allied still.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:46 am

I'm curious, are the dimensions on the Wallace Williams the same? What I mean is, is the distance from first position to third the same on all W/W's? The one I have is very short. Seven inches. Shorter than any other horn I have. Makes the balance very good, and brings the bell further back than a 40H. 40H is almost 8 inches.

Then a question about serial numbers and model numbers. In doing research here on the forum I discovered that W/W's had a model number? Either 1 or 2? Is that correct? That some have a number 1 or 2 above the serial number? I looked at my number again and was wondering if mine may be a model #1 and be number 12 serial number? Take a look.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:59 am

Quote from: Dan Martin on Apr 16, 2010, 08:46AMif mine may be a model #1 and be number 12 serial number?
It sure looks like that's a good possibility to me Dan.

Off topic...
I wonder if Earl was a Mason or a Shriner?

T.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:03 am

Quote from: tsmart on Apr 16, 2010, 08:59AMIt sure looks like that's a good possibility to me Dan.

Off topic...
I wonder if Earl was a Mason or a Shriner?

T.

It would be kinda awesome to have Earls 12th bone he made. I'll just bet that John can illuminate us on this.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:09 am

Quote from: Dan Martin on Apr 16, 2010, 09:03AMIt would be kinda awesome to have Earls 12th bone he made.
^True dat.

It would have been more awesome though, if my e-mail would have beat yours to the seller.

T.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:20 am

Looks like 112 to me. I have seen some of the early horns with no model number. Positions are closer to your face on any Wms horn because the scale is different. The bell is closer to oyour face and the slide tubes are longer. On the more modern Williams horns part of the hype was the balance. The horns balance at the slide lock. So without a counter weight to make this happen the scale of the horn was changed. I will attach an advertising flyer for you to see. The models on the WW horns were 1, 2, and 3. Then the modern horns went from 4 to 10. Odd numbers with the exception of the 10 were "F" attachment horns. Even number were straight horns. Even number bore sizes were model 4 .491. model 6 .500, model 8.522 and model 10 .565. The "F" attachment horns were the next lower number with a trigger. A 5 would be a .491 etc...

Some of the WW horns did not have a number for a model. Above the serial number was a bore designation of "S" or "L" I have not seen an "M" so I assume small or large.

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:07 am

Thanks to Oberloh Woodwind and Brass the Wallace is now clean as a whistle. Slide action improved to a solid 8.5 out of 10. Should quiet down after a while and few cleanings.

Bore size confirmed at .491 I was 9/100th off. Does that make it a model 1 or two????

I don't think its possible to over blow this instrument. Very solid. Super nice in the low range, very dark, more response down low than any other horn I have owned. The high range is fantastic.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:07 pm

That is a good question! I have seen .465, .485, .491 as #1. And .491, .500 as #2, and .500.522 as a nuber 2 and 3. So your guess is as good as mine.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:00 am

found this photo from japan

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:32 pm

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Apr 26, 2010, 01:00AMfound this photo from japan

So, did you get it?

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm

WOW!!! a real gem! Go get it Drew.

http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-BRASS-WILLIAMS-S-WALLACE-TROMBONE-LOS-ANGELES-/180507828013?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item2a071adf2d

Franken Williams?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Fri May 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Earl's spinning in his grave...

What the... ????

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Fri May 14, 2010 9:38 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on May 14, 2010, 09:36PMEarl's spinning in his grave...

He probably saw it before he died and thats what killed him.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:33 pm

Quote from: Dan Martin on May 14, 2010, 09:27PMFranken Williams?More like a brain-eating radioactive alien zombie Williams. You have to wonder who hacked that thing together, and what they destroyed in doing so. I might just take a flyer on it out of sheer curiosity, but I won't bid much.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sat May 15, 2010 9:06 am

wow thats a great piece !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--------------
AVAILABLE ON MARKET ///////SLIDE TUNING BONE
LOCATION --PENNSYLVANIA ------
--------------
owner wants to find someone to adopt it
and [ ha ha ] is looking for a 6

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri May 21, 2010 10:32 pm

The people who were selling the odd ball Wallace Williams on Ebay got a good price for it!! More powere to 'em!! Sure was different.....

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Fri May 21, 2010 10:35 pm

haha, "different" sure is the correct word for it!

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun May 23, 2010 8:18 am

quinn got it