Earl Williams Trombone

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:09 pm

You have to remember there are two Calicchio versions of a Williasm trombone. The first were made in the early 1990's in Los Angeles. Generally thought to be junk. The bells used were from Tenn, Getzen made and way to heavy. They were about .040 thick. Then there was nothing but trouble with the slides. The LA crowd could not draw tubing to save their soul. So the resorted to buying tubes from Conn and King student horns.

The second batch done after buying it back from Richard Chovner were much different than the first attempt. So maybe they should be reffered to as LA Calicchio vs Tulsa horns so there is no confusion. John Duda makes a most excellent horn no matter what he makes!

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:59 pm

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Aug 24, 2009, 02:24PMI played a friend's Calicchio 6 and I have to admit that maybe it was more responsive than my Burbank. Maybe.

So Dick has a Calicchio 6 besides his Burbank 6? It seem like Williams trombones are piling up here in Hawaii!!!

Quote from: jnoxon on Aug 24, 2009, 03:09PMYou have to remember there are two Calicchio versions of a Williasm trombone. The first were made in the early 1990's in Los Angeles. Generally thought to be junk. The bells used were from Tenn, Getzen made and way to heavy. They were about .040 thick. Then there was nothing but trouble with the slides. The LA crowd could not draw tubing to save their soul. So the resorted to buying tubes from Conn and King student horns.

The second batch done after buying it back from Richard Chovner were much different than the first attempt. So maybe they should be reffered to as LA Calicchio vs Tulsa horns so there is no confusion. John Duda makes a most excellent horn no matter what he makes!

Oh! I guess I wasn't aware of the LA Calicchio. Interesting information. My friend's Calicchio Williams 6 is a Tulsa horn made by John Duda. It is definitely a great horn.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:51 pm

Say hi to Dick for me too. I didn't know he spent time in Hawaii.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:51 pm

reporting a possible sale of 6 going from illinois to hawaii
=======================================
this horn was mentioned in repair section
as it had short tuning and callichio tulsa fabricated
to perfection the new tuning slide parts necessary
-------
this one is a lighter bell type much like sm burtis's old 6
----------
lived in cape girardeau mo for a long time
was played only once in local symphony
when the conductor stopped the music
pointed to that horn saying
that horn --DONT BRING IT BACH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-----
--------
then journeyed to st louis
------

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:25 am

Quote from: dj kennedy on Aug 25, 2009, 05:51PMreporting a possible sale of 6 going from illinois to hawaii
=======================================
this horn was mentioned in repair section
as it had short tuning and callichio tulsa fabricated
to perfection the new tuning slide parts necessary
-------
this one is a lighter bell type much like sm burtis's old 6
----------
lived in cape girardeau mo for a long time
was played only once in local symphony
when the conductor stopped the music
pointed to that horn saying
that horn --DONT BRING IT BACH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-----
--------
then journeyed to st louis
------

Hmm... I don't think it's coming to me. I wonder who else in Hawaii is fanatic about Williams trombones?

I hope it makes it to this side of the ocean.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:03 pm

Haha don't look at me

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:38 am

Finally got around to taking some pics of my Williams.
Bell engraving:

Williams on the left, early Olds on the right for comparison.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:52 am

I am sure you know that Earl worked for Olds in LA and Fullerton. And he and Earl Strickler were, partially responsible for the fluted slide tubes Olds used. Mostly for the actually production of them. Earl's gift in life was the ability to draw tubing. Both Earl's worked on making those tubes a reality. Earl from time to time used Old's parts in his horns. So the similarities are not surprising. He even used the Olds engravers for the Wallace horns. I believe Louie Allegre was one he used. He still lives in Anaheim.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:08 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on Aug 30, 2009, 11:52AMI am sure you know that Earl worked for Olds in LA and Fullerton. And he and Earl Strickler were, partially responsible for the fluted slide tubes Olds used. Mostly for the actually production of them. Earl's gift in life was the ability to draw tubing. Both Earl's worked on making those tubes a reality. Earl from time to time used Old's parts in his horns. So the similarities are not surprising. He even used the Olds engravers for the Wallace horns. I believe Louie Allegre was one he used. He still lives in Anaheim.

An encyclopedia of information on Earl Williams trombones! Thanks for the interesting info.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:34 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on Aug 30, 2009, 11:52AMI am sure you know that Earl worked for Olds in LA and Fullerton. And he and Earl Strickler were, partially responsible for the fluted slide tubes Olds used. Mostly for the actually production of them. Earl's gift in life was the ability to draw tubing. Both Earl's worked on making those tubes a reality. Earl from time to time used Old's parts in his horns. So the similarities are not surprising. He even used the Olds engravers for the Wallace horns. I believe Louie Allegre was one he used. He still lives in Anaheim.

Could someone explain the fluted slides now that we are on the topic. What makes them move faster than all of the rest? from the physics that I know, the force of friction is equal to the normal force (force downwards) * the coefficient of friction.

If both slides are made from the same material, there wouldn't be a difference in movement. Could someone explain the big difference that the fluted slide makes?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:44 pm

Quote from: bachbone on Aug 30, 2009, 07:34PMCould someone explain the fluted slides now that we are on the topic. What makes them move faster than all of the rest? from the physics that I know, the force of friction is equal to the normal force (force downwards) * the coefficient of friction.

If both slides are made from the same material, there wouldn't be a difference in movement. Could someone explain the big difference that the fluted slide makes?

My understanding of the underlying theory is that there are two contact surfaces on a slide tube... one is on the stocking and the other is where the open end of the outer slide happens to hit. If you flute the slide tube, you reduce the contact area on the non-stocking contact, thereby reducing the drag.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:11 pm

Quote from: bachbone on Aug 30, 2009, 07:34PMWhat makes them move faster than all of the rest?The idea was to reduce the contact area between the inner slide and the outer slide.

Quote from: US Patent 2106327In the present construction the bearing between the inner slide tube and the interior of the outer slide tube, save for the stockings, is formed by a plurality or multiplicity of apices whereby a peripheral line contact, as distinguished from surface to surface contact, is provided between the stationary and movable slide. In this way friction is reduced and the engaging areas may be adequately lubricated.
A secondary function was to provide for better lubrication - excess oil would settle in the gaps between the outer and the flats of the inner, providing something of a reservoir.

Reg Olds had patented a grooved inner a year or so earlier, but there were problems getting the tubes drawn correctly (this is mentioned in the patent text for the polygonal slide). I'd guess Reg and both Earls spent a lot of time trying to get those grooved tubes to draw correctly before someone thought of using a polygonal cross-section instead.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:52 pm

Hi, attached my former Williams 10, the current owner just mailed them to me. As you can see
is the bells not close to Conn, or any other trombone. Actually it is as far from Conn you can get, the throat is huge, as is the sound. A real dominating horn.

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Wow,Svenne !

That`s a substantial piece of playing equipment!!

The bell diameter looks big also, 10" ?

Still located in Sweden ?

Trond

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:34 pm

This look as a very interesting trombone. Looks very special with that F-trigger? Did you use this trombone in your work or as your main horn Svenne? I mean before you sold it?

Leif

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:49 pm

Hi Svenne,

Thanks for the pictures! Awesome looking bass bone!!!

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:12 pm

The bell is a 9 1/2.
The horn was my main ax for a couple of years, hundreds of recordings, TV shows, concerts and opera playing. I was to loud many times.
The horn belongs to a player in Sweden, he is very happy with it, he loves the setup with the left thumb going over the bell brace. I hate that.

The slides on all of those Williams were very good. I do think that is very important.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:25 pm

AWESOME!!!

An all Williams section!!!

I wish I could hear it!

Why don't you all fly over here and play with the Maui Community Band? We have three trombones going against six euphoniums and two tubas (the section shrank from the five they had for the 4th of July Concert). We could use reinforcements.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:02 pm

I miss my 6! Some day it will return to me from Mike's hands, and hopefully fast!

It is interesting how not so deep the engravings were. Some slight buffing or even just a hand full of times polishing it could rub the engraving off. On my Williams bell, I could see the "s" and that was it, very faint.

This looks like a wonderful horn! I am jealous, but life goes on!

Hawaii is sure turning into a trombone players dream vacation huh?

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:15 pm

Hey Koda,

Did you send your 6 out for a complete overhaul? I hope you get it back soon. I know I'd feel lost without my 6. Sure, I could play my very good 16M but it's really not the same as playing my 6.

The next time you come to Hawaii, try to bring your 6 along so we can add another one to our list of Williamses.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:29 pm

The horn in the pictures above is what I like to call a "Bob Williams Model 6", made in the mid-to-late 70's by Earl's son.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:12 pm

Bob's horns we distinguished by nickel hand slide crooks, always round, and serial numbers started at 3XXX, they also had a different trade mark on them. The bell stem was marked "Earl Williams" and the "Custom Made" & "Burbank Ca" we on the hand grip not the bell stem like Earl's horn were. Most of Bob's crooks were round and not dual radius on the tuning slide also.

Even his 8, 9, model had the nickel crook.

Still great horns though. Earl had an ability to tweak a horn, that Bob did not have, for a particular player, if you were a name LA player, if not oh well. But they both built excellent high quality horns.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:23 pm

Quote from: DaveAshley on Sep 22, 2009, 04:29PMThe horn in the pictures above is what I like to call a "Bob Williams Model 6", made in the mid-to-late 70's by Earl's son.

Quote from: jnoxon on Sep 22, 2009, 05:12PMBob's horns we distinguished by nickel hand slide crooks, always round, and serial numbers started at 3XXX, they also had a different trade mark on them. The bell stem was marked "Earl Williams" and the "Custom Made" & "Burbank Ca" we on the hand grip not the bell stem like Earl's horn were. Most of Bob's crooks were round and not dual radius on the tuning slide also.

Even his 8, 9, model had the nickel crook.

Still great horns though. Earl had an ability to tweak a horn, that Bob did not have, for a particular player, if you were a name LA player, if not oh well. But they both built excellent high quality horns.

Apparently there was a period of transition when Bob was assembling the horns and Earl was still pulling the slide tubes. This info came from a guy who worked in the shop (not John N) around that period of time. I've said before that I bought my horn in the Spring of 1971 and this was within that transitional period. My horn has several traits that are different from the typical trombones that Earl made. First of all, it has the "raw chrome" plated hand grip that is something that distinguished Bob's horn. Secondly, my horn has the serial #300x and the horn that Bach42BOS shows has the serial #301x. Of course, John has said all along that the serial numbers were not necessarily in sequence so they don't really prove anything. Next is that the identification stamping is on my bell stem and it says:

Custom Made
Earl Williams
Burbank, Calif

The interesting thing about the horn that Bach42BOS posted is that the original tuning slide is very rounded and is identical to mine in shape. The tuning slide you see in the picture was made by Calicchio's John Duda because the original tuning slide had been cut. (I hope the picture posts correctly.) I believe that the shape of John Duda's tuning slide is more like Earl's. None of this really proves if the horn that Bach42BOS posted was made before Earl passed on, but the fact that my horn is nearly identical that this horn indicates that it could have possibly been made before his passing.

Isn't detective work fun?

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:54 pm

here's another pic of Dick's tuning slide

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:19 am

Here's a picture of my 1971 Burbank 6 tuning slide.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:10 am

Here's a picture of my Minick tuning slide.......

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:46 am

Hi Chris,

Those are very cool looking braces on your Minick. I wish I had a chance to play that horn.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:17 pm

Drew, photobucket seems to be freaking out.

Here are some pics of my Williams 6, still the great player that I remember.

http://photobucket.com/Burbankearlwilliams6trombone

If you haven't played one yet, you are missing out

Drew, it is interesting to see the differences between the "newer" Williams compared to the older ones. I added some pics of the tuning slide to show a little bit of what the older ones looked like.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:14 pm

yeah for some reason photobucket deleted all my pics!!! now i gotta go back and host them again

ps- your horn looks super!!!!!!!!!!!

ttf_tbone62 · Post by **ttf_tbone62** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:00 pm

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Oct 16, 2009, 07:14PMyeah for some reason photobucket deleted all my pics!!! now i gotta go back and host them again

ps- your horn looks super!!!!!!!!!!!

At the request of Bach42BOS, I've removed his posts that contained the PhotoBucket links that were not working properly.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:14 pm

thanks Alea

i'm currently uploading the photos to photobucket again

ttf_Hank Lambert · Post by **ttf_Hank Lambert** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:36 pm

Koda, your "new' 6 looks great. if it plays half as good as it looks....... Corrigan did a fantastic job as always. For all of you 6 players, how does the 6 play vs a Schmelzer 1? I just happened across a model 1 with a copper bell that is the most responsive horn I've ever owned!!

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:38 pm

comparison between two Burbank 6's. one made by Bob, the other by Earl.

*Earl Williams Trombones Section-Honolulu,Hawaii-September 2009-Barnum*

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:05 pm

Quote from: Hank Lambert on Oct 16, 2009, 08:36PMKoda, your "new' 6 looks great. if it plays half as good as it looks....... Corrigan did a fantastic job as always.
Quote from: Bach42BOS on Oct 16, 2009, 07:14PMps- your horn looks super!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks! I play tested this .500 versus one of my .525 bachs and it does have a darker ring to it. More beef to the sound, free blowing and open. Mellow and full. I almost forgot what it sounded and felt like cause it did take a while.

I am shipping it off to a friend to play, so for another 3 weeks it will be away from me.

NFS

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:17 am

Hi Koda,

Your horn looks awesome!!! I'm glad it plays as well as it looks! Congratulations!

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:20 am

Quote from: DaveAshley on Sep 22, 2009, 04:29PMThe horn in the pictures above is what I like to call a "Bob Williams Model 6", made in the mid-to-late 70's by Earl's son.
If you are talking about the Williams 10 posted by me:
The horn is the one I used in a LP recording in 1974. It was shipped to Sweden after a communication between Birka Musik and Earl. After Earls death, there a short communication with Bob.
I hold it for believable that Earl and Bob made some horns together.
I meet the former owner of Birka Musik a couple of months ago, we discussed the Williams horns, he told me that the first contact he had was with Earl, latter when Earls health was bad it was Bob that was the connection.
As you can see on the pic the slide crook is brass, not nickel.
Confusing, right?

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:01 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Oct 17, 2009, 02:20AMAs you can see on the pic the slide crook is brass, not nickel.
Confusing, right?

If the slide crook were made of brass compared to nickel, who is said to have made it?

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:22 pm

maybe experimental?

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:31 pm

Hey Koda,

I was taking a close look at the tuning slide on your 6. Am I right in thinking that it was cut?

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:46 pm

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Oct 18, 2009, 01:31PMHey Koda,

I was taking a close look at the tuning slide on your 6. Am I right in thinking that it was cut?

Aloha,
Richard

now that you mention it, it does look shorter like my friends tuning slide.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:49 pm

YAWN...... zzzzzzzzz

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:11 pm

What, you're bored by men comparing the size of their crooks?

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:36 pm

I think this thread has run it's course!!!

28 pages..... Unbelievable

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:34 pm

Hi All,

Happy days!!! This past Monday I received a new Williams 6 that was assembled by John Sandhagen. In all fairness, I have to mention all the people who were involved with this project starting with the anonymous individual who sold me the Donelson, Tenn bell, followed by John Noxon who advised me on who to talk to who could help with putting it together and where to get parts, John Duda of Calicchio who sold me a few spare parts that he had around the shop from when he was building Williams trombones, and, of course, John Sandhagen for putting the horn together and actually fabricating a slide lock when the people who plated the handgrip messed up the original lock from John D. Oh yeah, the slide tubes are King 2B+ tubes. I guess I should more accurately call this a Frankenbone Williams 6... Or is it a Williams 6 Frankenbone?

Here are a few pictures. This thing blows great, by the way. Huge sound! Very vibrant! I'd better add right now that John N sent me a bunch of leadpipes to try and I ended up liking that 66 pipe made by John Duda. Where there are two trombones showing, the one on the left is my 1971 Burbank 6 and the one on the right is the new 6. Notice the differences in the tuning slide and the slide crook. The rounder shape of the '71 6 shows Bob Williams's hand in making it and the dual radius slides of the new 6 is in keeping with Earl's preferences and were made by John Duda.

Notice that John S put a Saturn waterkey on the new slide. One more person to thank: Thanks to dj for providing the waterkey to John.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:44 pm

Here are a few more pictures. The first pic shows the engraving of my '71 Burbank 6. The second shows the Donelson engraving. The last picture is a full shot of the new 6.

Thank you for your patience.

ttf_john sandhagen · Post by **ttf_john sandhagen** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:48 pm

Kanstul did a nice job lacquering it...It looked like marching band refugee when it left my shop...

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:30 pm

Congrats Rich! Looks great!

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:50 pm

I knew I was forgetting to mention someone. Right! Kanstul did a great job with the lacquering.

Thanks John and John! I really, really appreciate all that the two of you have done for me. I've already using the new 6 for playing in the orchestra for the musical Cabaret.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:40 am

yeah on the saturns irvin had it !!!!!! making a williams pattern spit key would be fun !!!!!!!!!
------
congrats on the project
-------

ttf_klimchak · Post by **ttf_klimchak** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:59 am

I was checking out Steve Turre's website this past weekend (steveturre.com) and in the video section there is a vintage video of Steve playing with Ray Charles. It certainly looks like he is playing a big-belled Williams with the loopy attachment that Kanstul is putting on their Williams 7 copy.