TromboneChat

JCBone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:26 pm

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:02 pm who plays a vintage horn?

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.

Peacemate wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:47 pm

JCBone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:26 pm

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.

It's a closed wrap single, not many people using those at the pro level.

Lol I had to double take. I was like "Michael Davis doesn't play that, usually..."

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:57 pm

Peacemate wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:47 pm

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.

It's a closed wrap single, not many people using those at the pro level.

Couldn't see that in the video, I guess that's kind of on the vintagier side of things. I was thinking more sound wise though, but I see the point.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:57 pm

Peacemate wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:47 pm

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.

It's a closed wrap single, not many people using those at the pro level.

Really is pretty impressive

JCBone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:26 pm

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:02 pm who plays a vintage horn?

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

Unrelated but anybody know what the first trombone is playing?

JCBone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:13 pm

JCBone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:26 pm

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

Unrelated but anybody know what the first trombone is playing?

Shires model made just for him with a different axial wrap. Morandini model, I think.

JCBone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:11 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:57 pm

It's a closed wrap single, not many people using those at the pro level.

Really is pretty impressive

what does he do when he needs the b?

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:24 pm

what does he do when he needs the b?

He has an Eb slide, but usually just fakes them on the end of the slide.

Cmon he’s got a back up horn for contemporary stuff, right?

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:22 pm Cmon he’s got a back up horn for contemporary stuff, right?

He has two more Kanstul singles. No doubles.

I’m gonna get a commission for the orchestra and write a bunch of chromatic licks in the vicinity of Db down to pedal A just to spite him.

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:24 pm what does he do when he needs the b?

Micha told me the following 3 years ago: "Hi JJ! I play everything on a single valve, using E valve whenever low C and B natural are in the part. In the orchestra one can get along just fine with a single valve but in the solo literature it's much more complicated."

He makes it work and does it quite well -- that's all that should matter, regardless of the tool. The IPO is a world class orchestra and he wouldn't have been with them for so long without being effective, you know?

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:07 pm I’m gonna get a commission for the orchestra and write a bunch of chromatic licks in the vicinity of Db down to pedal A just to spite him.

Forget that. Just make him bounce back and forth between B and Bb.

Traditional wrap Bachs have enough of a slide pull to get a solid B. It's a viable option if you really feel the second valve adds more weight than convenience, but it definitely requires extra right arm work.

Pretty clear from his response that his orchestra isn’t doing much demanding contemporary repertoire.

Looking at their schedule, I can see why he doesn't need the second valve. This is conservative programming. The only thing that I could see that would give me pause with a single valve horn is the John Williams concert, lol.
https://www.ipo.co.il/wp-content/upload ... _19_en.pdf

Anyway my takeaway from this thread is there are a healthy number of trombone manufacturers making orchestral instruments at a high level and they really don't differ that much.

You can play even contemporary stuff on a single just fine with a good slide hand...it's just more work. (The only exception would be glisses that require a 2nd valve, but those are very few and far between among contemporary works and nonexistent in the standard rep.) If you're proficient with the E valve there's no reason you NEED a double in a working orchestra. For a lot of the rep you don't even need one valve.

Micha plays on single valve horns due to nerve damage in his left hand. Recordings that he posts regularly have all the dexterity anyone needs.

MBurner wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:44 am Micha plays on single valve horns due to nerve damage in his left hand. Recordings that he posts regularly have all the dexterity anyone needs.

He also has a very interesting left hand grip. Does that have something to do with it?

He seems like an outstanding player. TBH if I played more bass I would probably go with single valve closed wrap too, since that's what I use on tenor.
But I don't buy the idea that this setup is suitable for contemporary orchestra music. Granted, I haven't seen the bass trombone parts to commonly played late 20th c rep, but i maintain that he can only get away with this in this type of orchestra that is relatively conservative. There is no way you could get through a season of the LA Phil with that setup (without annoying some composers, some of whom aren't gonna notice and some of whom are going to raise their eyebrows when you tell them you are "faking" notes).

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:20 pm (without annoying some composers, some of whom aren't gonna notice and some of whom are going to raise their eyebrows when you tell them you are "faking" notes).

I don't think the composers would know you are faking them. If you are good at it, nobody will notice it in an ensemble situation. Except maybe if you have to hold a low b for two measures.

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:20 pm But I don't buy the idea that this setup is suitable for contemporary orchestra music. Granted, I haven't seen the bass trombone parts to commonly played late 20th c rep, but i maintain that he can only get away with this in this type of orchestra that is relatively conservative.

Contemporary big band music typically has much more active bass trombone writing than contemporary orchestra music, and I played that at a professional level without issue on a single for a full year. I've also played plenty of that contemporary orchestra rep you yourself admitted you haven't seen. If you can get around proficiently with the valve in bE, you really don't need a double for 99.9% of anything you'll get on your stand at a gig or in the orchestra. You don't have to "fake" anything. I play a double now because it's less work and I like using the Gb valve alone, but I never had to fake anything or compromise what was on the page with the single.

Also, remember that George Roberts existed and the single was enough for everything he had to play from the Kenton band to the studios. "Single valve bass trombones aren't suitable for modern music" is a myth. We all use doubles because it makes our lives much easier, not because it's impossible to do what we do with one valve.

Just play low b in 1st with the spit valve open. Problem solved!!

Just remembered one of Micha‘s posts in the “Bass Trombone Appreciation Society” Facebook group:

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:02 pm who plays a vintage horn?

What is the definition of vintage?

I used to play an Edwards made about 1990. It had a pretty typical Edwards setup and never got a second look even for a 30 year old horn. I recently switched to a Benge 190 made in the same year. Now I get all sorts of comments and weird looks about how I’m playing on an old/vintage horn. But everyone agrees the Benge works better for me, so that’s all that matters in the end.

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:23 pm

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:20 pm (without annoying some composers, some of whom aren't gonna notice and some of whom are going to raise their eyebrows when you tell them you are "faking" notes).

I don't think the composers would know you are faking them. If you are good at it, nobody will notice it in an ensemble situation. Except maybe if you have to hold a low b for two measures.

Well, I'm a composer and I would know.
Doug Yeo's article talks about Dorati being dissatisfied with people faking the B in Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. He knew.

Didn't Sauer play a pre-model number Conn "8h" bell? Nobody dabbling in those anymore in the orchestras?

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:53 pm Didn't Sauer play a pre-model number Conn "8h" bell? Nobody dabbling in those anymore in the orchestras?

Sauer played a pretty old 8h for many years in LA. He later switched to a more modern 8h in the ‘90’s and then a Shires after he retired from the orchestra.

In American orchestras, I’d be pretty hard pressed to find a player using an older horn as their daily driver now. The previous generation had many examples: Sauer, Dodson, Friedman, Crisafulli, Kleinhammer. Dave Langlitz played the same 88H he won the Met job on for most of his 40 year career there.

I suspect that now a lot of it is the desire to have some sort of company sponsorship/presence on the website as an endorsing artist. In some cases, the manufacturer is making it well worth their while financially.

easy solution to that: eBay sponsorship

chromebone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:03 pm

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:53 pm Didn't Sauer play a pre-model number Conn "8h" bell? Nobody dabbling in those anymore in the orchestras?

Sauer played a pretty old 8h for many years in LA. He later switched to a more modern 8h in the ‘90’s and then a Shires after he retired from the orchestra.

In American orchestras, I’d be pretty hard pressed to find a player using an older horn as their daily driver now. The previous generation had many examples: Sauer, Dodson, Friedman, Crisafulli, Kleinhammer. Dave Langlitz played the same 88H he won the Met job on for most of his 40 year career there.

I suspect that now a lot of it is the desire to have some sort of company sponsorship/presence on the website as an endorsing artist. In some cases, the manufacturer is making it well worth their while financially.

Who's whoa whoa, Friedman is current! Ignore the fact that he has been the principle trombonist there in Chicago for 56 years (and on the payroll for 58)! He's got at least 44 years left to go!

Who's whoa whoa, Friedman is current! Ignore the fact that he has been the principle trombonist there in Chicago for 56 years (and on the payroll for 58)! He's got at least 44 years left to go!

Let’s call Friedman multi-generational.

It’s remarkable to think that there are younger players that had full, 30-40 year careers that started after him and they have now retired.

I took a lesson with him last year, he sounded fantastic.

He’ll outlast us all.

Doesn't Olaf Ott from berlin play a kruspe?

JCBone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:16 pm Doesn't Olaf Ott from berlin play a kruspe?

Olaf Ott plays a Throja from my knowledge, Christhard Gössling plays Kruspe.

MStarke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:29 pm

JCBone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:16 pm Doesn't Olaf Ott from berlin play a kruspe?

Olaf Ott plays a Throja from my knowledge, Christhard Gössling plays Kruspe.

Ah right. I always get mixed up. It doesn't help that they both look the same

JCBone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:35 pm

MStarke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:29 pm

Olaf Ott plays a Throja from my knowledge, Christhard Gössling plays Kruspe.

Ah right. I always get mixed up. It doesn't help that they both look the same

Well... I think that neither their trombones nor the persons look the same

RE : Antal Dorati's fascination with the low B Natural in the "Bartok Concerto for Orchestra".
During his tenure with the NSO, Maestro Dorati came to me one day while on tour, and said, "You always play the low B natural in the Bartok so well --- do you find it difficult ?" I told him, "No -- it's quite easy". I know I was playing my King Duo Gravis at the time and demonstrated to him that I would start B natural in the "D" trigger flat 4th position, glissando to the "F" in first using the F trigger, gradually changing triggers around 2nd position. He was pleased with the result and gave his signature nod of approval. As I turned, John Marcellus, our principal trombonist at the time, called me over and told me in a joking way that I should never tell a conductor that ANYthing was easy to play ! Lesson learned ! As some may be aware, Dorati not only knew Bartok, but Dorati himself was an accomplished composer and not easily fooled.

Peacemate wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:47 pm
I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.

An unusual point, and I don’t agree. The word “vintage” has become conflated with the word “old,” when the more generally understood use of the word “vintage” means a year, era, or even place of production, as in wine. “Vintage” also implies an above-average or even superior product. It may seem pedantic (and even redundant) to say “a vintage Bach Corporation 50B,” but I think it is accurate.

Many people—myself included—feel some difference between Corporation Bachs and current Bachs. Granted, I haven’t played that many, but my highly unscientific and under-representative sampling makes me think there is a difference. I hesitate to say that one is better than the other—just different.

2bobone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:41 pm RE : Antal Dorati's fascination with the low B Natural in the "Bartok Concerto for Orchestra".
During his tenure with the NSO, Maestro Dorati came to me one day while on tour, and said, "You always play the low B natural in the Bartok so well --- do you find it difficult ?" I told him, "No -- it's quite easy". I know I was playing my King Duo Gravis at the time and demonstrated to him that I would start B natural in the "D" trigger flat 4th position, glissando to the "F" in first using the F trigger, gradually changing triggers around 2nd position. He was pleased with the result and gave his signature nod of approval. As I turned, John Marcellus, our principal trombonist at the time, called me over and told me in a joking way that I should never tell a conductor that ANYthing was easy to play ! Lesson learned ! As some may be aware, Dorati not only knew Bartok, but Dorati himself was an accomplished composer and not easily fooled.

Wow, amazing story.

Well according to his website Jay Friedman plays a 1966 Latzsch alto. So that's vintage.

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:38 pm Well according to his website Jay Friedman plays a 1966 Latzsch alto. So that's vintage.

Given how infrequently you are called to play alto in an orchestra, it should last another 100 years...

I think Jay has more than one alto, including a modern Thein. He also plays alto on Brahms symphonies and certain "bigger' works like Schubert 9. so I think he gets more use out of his than some other players. He also has a couple of models of alto mouthpieces to help with playing the light literature and the heavier pieces that can fit on the alto. I think that the alto has become a more prominent part of his approach throughout his career, not as a "crutch:", but because he is a curious musician who has evolved over the years. An inspiration to us all, with his long distinguished career!

Jim Scott

I have never required a player to have a different horn but have made it clear that s/he didn't blend with the section. I usually point out the problems but leave it to them how to resolve it.

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:42 pm I think Jay has more than one alto, including a modern Thein. He also plays alto on Brahms symphonies and certain "bigger' works like Schubert 9. so I think he gets more use out of his than some other players. He also has a couple of models of alto mouthpieces to help with playing the light literature and the heavier pieces that can fit on the alto. I think that the alto has become a more prominent part of his approach throughout his career, not as a "crutch:", but because he is a curious musician who has evolved over the years. An inspiration to us all, with his long distinguished career!

Jim Scott

I have learned quite a lot about when to play alto and when not to for a lot of repertoire based on his articles.

The guy is unstoppable

Gary wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:22 pm I have never required a player to have a different horn but have made it clear that s/he didn't blend with the section. I usually point out the problems but leave it to them how to resolve it.

Depending on the level the orchestra you might be able to pull that off. Maybe.

I think one thing this discussion has left out is that the vast majority of orchestras in the US and the world are actually smaller full time regional(Louisville, Indianapolis, Florida, San Diego etc.) and part time per service orchestras. In those situations, there are a much greater variety of horns, older and newer, in sections; the players are not as high profile, don’t play together as often and are also playing/teaching other jobs. In many cases, the playing level and blend is as good as anything out there.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:00 am

Gary wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:22 pm I have never required a player to have a different horn but have made it clear that s/he didn't blend with the section. I usually point out the problems but leave it to them how to resolve it.

Depending on the level the orchestra you might be able to pull that off. Maybe.

Are you saying a MD/Conductor has no recourse if a player doesn't fit with his section nand orchestra?

Gary wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:39 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:00 am

Depending on the level the orchestra you might be able to pull that off. Maybe.

Are you saying a MD/Conductor has no recourse if a player doesn't fit with his section nand orchestra?

Really depends on the orchestra. If you have the Cleveland Orchestra, Boston Symphony, or any top tier orchestra the MD may be able to dictate that, although the section themselves would probably intervene first.

Lower tier (particularly per service orchestras) there may not be that much flexibility. About all the MD can do is "blackball" the offending player.

Gary wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:39 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:00 am

Depending on the level the orchestra you might be able to pull that off. Maybe.

Are you saying a MD/Conductor has no recourse if a player doesn't fit with his section nand orchestra?

I think it depends on the orchestra and the clout of the music director. Let's face it most major orchestras are all great sections as well as many other of the finer orchestras in this country. So for those orchestras I doubt it's an issue. But lay out a scenario where you would be conducting an orchestra(you pick the group) where you'd actually be able to dictate to a chair holder to change instruments. I'm curious.

now i'm imagining a conductor saying "principal trombone please switch to oboe 2"