Earl Williams Trombone

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:19 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 13, 2011, 09:30PMRead the previous posts... The top "stocking" turned out to be smaller, not larger. The tube is drawn to three steps. Ah but to me (who spent several years working in a tube welding and drawing mill), the academic question remains.

QuoteAnd I thought about the two-piece drawing die idea, but you wouldn't be able to get it started. It's hard enough to do some of these things, without making it impossible.I think it could be done, given the right tooling. The process wouldn't be properly called "drawing" - it'd be more akin to swaging over a mandrel. Of course, it would be uneconomical...

But back to John's W-W with the stepped inners. Seems you'd either have a really thin wall up towards the cork barrels of a rather thick wall down at the stockings.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:29 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Jun 14, 2011, 05:19PMBut back to John's W-W with the stepped inners. Seems you'd either have a really thin wall up towards the cork barrels of a rather thick wall down at the stockings.

which i guess gives us some insight as to motive... thinnest near the top where no friction or weight is borne - probably also helps in response being that close to the mpc receiver - and thickest at the end where all the weight and friction are...

John, it's a beautiful horn !

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:41 pm

I guess that is as good a reason as any. I think it could be done, but it would be a many step process. After drawing the tube one direction with one stocking, you could go back and swedge the other end of the tube? I am sure the process could be done but why anyone would want to is the question. When I first saw this I let my eyes deceive me into thinking 2 larger diameter stocking, one on each end. And it can be felt to.

During the Burbank era Earl would draw tubing with a .0005 taper over the first few inches. No one knows why he did this either. I have only seen 2 horns like this. I wonder if he did the first few, or how many he did this way. Has anyone else seen a Wallace like this? Or any other horn?

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:57 pm

Maybe it's not time to thin the herd. Lots of watchers no bidders!

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:58 am

ah come on, John... you know the bidders will wait until the last day to nibble and it'll blow up in the last 2 minutes.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:05 am

Quote from: Exzaclee on Jun 15, 2011, 06:58AMah come on, John... you know the bidders will wait until the last day to nibble and it'll blow up in the last [s]2 minutes[/s] 30 seconds.
Fixed it for ya Zach.

John, I'd bet good money that Quinn will be bidding (and several others).
If i had some extra cash, I'd be bidding too.

(currently tied up with 2 projects, hope to complete both by the end of July)

T.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:23 am

I am sure you are right about that. Just expected a little action by now. We shall see what happens in the next few days. If it does not sell oh well I will just have to keep playing it, break my heart!

Gonna put a Superbone up soon, waiting on a couple of small parts from Selmer. Kanstul redid the valves, new upper, inner and outer tubes. Looking good at the moment, I just have to get a couple of little parts from Selmer. Ted and Andy have promised them in the next week or two. Have to wait and see. If anybody is interested let me know.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:17 pm

well, if you absolutely have to get rid of it, either the W&W or the other one

give me a pm

remember however, I've got a HS senior who thinks, and the wife agrees, that he is going to a university or college in 2012, so my best offer might cover postage.

the feeding frenzy will happen, "I betcha"

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:47 pm

The closer in the outer slide is, the farther off-center its upper end can get. Up towards first and second position, it's much easier for the end of the outer to drag on the inner. Maybe Earl had the idea of stepping (and later tapering) the inner to keep the ends of the outers from wearing against the inners.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:54 pm

Thats very true. That condition would exist if the stocking (bearing) was to short, or the differential between stocking diameter and tube diameter was to close. That would make the slide drag. I would think it would have to be a very short bearing to cause that. Most players don't even get the fact that the stocking is a bearing.

The later horns with the taper makes more sense to me. Easier to manufacture and easier to align than having a 3 step, or 3 diameter tube. 3 step tube seems like a lot of work. Prolly is for the average guy, but Earl was a genius with drawing tubing. Wonder how much tubing he drew for Benge over the years? The used to come down the street and have him do a lot of drawing for them.

Just one of those things we will never know.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:43 pm

i say it'll explode in the last 10-13 seconds.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:49 am

LATEST WILLIAMS CLUB MEMBER -- KLEMEN REPE !!!!!!

WELCOME TO THE WILLIAMS CLUB FOR JOINING UP WITH
and caretaking for a number 6 from noah !!!!!!!!!
-------------
there was lotsa handholding along the way
repe is in europe [SLOVENIA]and a fine trombonist with
many fine bones but unfamiliar w earl's work
----------------
many facebook chats and emails
and some u tube clips passed by

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:17 am

beat me to it...

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:02 pm

DJ I agree Congrats! A few emails is an easy thing to do to find a good horn an excellent home. It has one now, the horn is happy and so is Klemen!

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:04 pm

Bach 42 you are most likely right. The last few will be critical well over 400 views, and about 30 or so watchers. So it should be interesting. This is the first thinning of the herd in about 10 years for me. Like to find a good home for it.

ttf_salsabone · Post by **ttf_salsabone** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:39 pm

Hey DJ,
In watching this thread I just saw that you sold a Williams 6 to Klemen Repe. He emailed me a few weeks ago out of the blue(I do not know him) about a small bore Reynolds that I was watching. Through our emails we found out that I was the guy that beat him out of a Reynolds Argenta on Ebay a few weeks ago! Small world isn't it.
Kevin

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:33 pm

Well it hits the fan tomorrow afternoon. Should be interesting, actually hope its interesting!

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:36 pm

Good luck with the sale.

ttf_lingon · Post by **ttf_lingon** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:03 am

We all know of Earl and Bob. But Fred?!

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:36 am

he was the Williams that was disowned by the US side of the family when France started to get nasty about the wars

remember "Freedom" Fries

same thing

he was stricken from all officials records, as much as possible.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:01 pm

Hello to all trombone friends from US,who helped me in finding enough informations about WILLIAMS 6 trombone.
Anyway,it was purchased few days ago and will take another week to get the horn to Europe-Slovenia.
I really wish,that this horn will be the crown of my trombone collection till now.
THANKS AGAIN especially to DJ, John Noxon, Troy and of course,I guess,also to Noah-but let's wait few more days to play on Williams and than I will get back with informations,how it sounds to me.
Klemen

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:25 am

Wow, can't believe the horn didn't sell. Maybe you should just hold on to it, John.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:30 pm

Congrats Kleme. I think you'll be very happy with it.

John - I can't believe it didn't sell.

I figured at least 2 people would have been fighting for it, if not more.

T.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:35 pm

Oh well back in the closet it goes! I am really surprised too. Over 40 watchers, and 400 views, not one bidder. Ah thats alright I'll just keep it. I have a couple that are about the same so I thought I would move one on to a new home. But thats OK!

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:48 pm

ha ha we fooled you they are made out of olds ambassador reject parts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

============
just kidding !!!!!! hope you like it --and if you dont
we can help you resell it
-------
AND WELCOME TO THE WILLIAMS CLUB
AND TTF !!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: HALBY on Jun 19, 2011, 01:01PMHello to all trombone friends from US,who helped me in finding enough informations about WILLIAMS 6 trombone.
Anyway,it was purchased few days ago and will take another week to get the horn to Europe-Slovenia.
I really wish,that this horn will be the crown of my trombone collection till now.
THANKS AGAIN especially to DJ, John Noxon, Troy and of course,I guess,also to Noah-but let's wait few more days to play on Williams and than I will get back with informations,how it sounds to me.
Klemen

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:13 pm

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Jun 20, 2011, 11:25AMWow, can't believe the horn didn't sell. Maybe you should just hold on to it, John.I'm slightly surprised; I would have thought someone would have jumped in for a grand. Then again, there doesn't seem to be as much interest in W-W's and early Williams horns as there is in the post-WWII stuff.

$1K is well beyond the comfort range for a reseller, so they're out from the start. Ditto the "casual collector". That just leaves the serious collectors, and there really aren't that many of them. Hit a time when they're all on the sidelines for various reasons and a horn just isn't going to sell.

Then again, maybe that cracked outer scared 'em off.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:44 pm

I don't know what it was, but thats OK. I just hate to have to many of one thing. It just sits in the closet and never gets played. You just never know, maybe in a few months.....

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:52 pm

i would have got it but i have to keep my bread up - 'bout to start on a master's degree... but i want it. i want it so bad.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:08 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Jun 20, 2011, 02:13PMI'm slightly surprised; I would have thought someone would have jumped in for a grand. Then again, there doesn't seem to be as much interest in W-W's and early Williams horns as there is in the post-WWII stuff.

$1K is well beyond the comfort range for a reseller, so they're out from the start. Ditto the "casual collector". That just leaves the serious collectors, and there really aren't that many of them. Hit a time when they're all on the sidelines for various reasons and a horn just isn't going to sell.

Then again, maybe that cracked outer scared 'em off.
yeah i was waiting for someone to jump in at the last second but no one did! i agree in that the timing of the sale for this horn was just not the right time, at least for me.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:19 pm

It is headed off to Noah and the Brass Ark. He has a waiting list for Wms........ Someone missed a darn good horn.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:26 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on Jun 21, 2011, 09:19PMIt is headed off to Noah and the Brass Ark. He has a waiting list for Wms........ Someone missed a darn good horn.
good to hear that the horn is going to the Ark!! wait, so did you send two williams'?? haha!

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:17 pm

No just one at this time. I amy have another in a while. Thinking about a silver wallace I have. .500 bore 7.5 inch bell. Got a superbone gonna go to. As soon as Conn-Selmer sends me a $10.00 part. New tubes, new tuning slide, Kanstul re did the valves too. Great horn I am just not smart enough to play it!LOL

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:09 am

Quote from: Bach42BOS on Jun 21, 2011, 09:08PMyeah i was waiting for someone to jump in at the last second but no one did! i agree in that the timing of the sale for this horn was just not the right time, at least for me.

"missed it by that much" - Maxwell Smart, Agent 86 (Don Adams)

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:26 am

Quote from: sly fox on Jun 22, 2011, 01:09AMMaxwell Smart
That's my younger brothers name.
Seriously.

T.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:50 pm

Hello gentlemen!

I am in possession of a 1949 Earl Williams bass trombone and I'd like to know a little more about it. I think you guys are the right ones to ask.

The trigger system is by Minick, probably added some time after the horn was commissioned. I know that Charlie Minick passed some time ago.

The slide has no significant markings other than a US Patent Number 1782452.

Here's the tricky part. On no part of the bell is there anything that says "Burbank" or "Williams". Major absence of lacquer All I have is a serial with "10" and underneath it "1145".

Could I actually be in possession of a mythic Model 10 Williams bass trombone?

Any help you could offer would be much appreciated.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:58 pm

Well, that's the Williams patent for the curved handbrace. It sounds like it's at least part of a 10.

Can you post some pictures? Maybe give us some specs (at least a bell diameter).

ttf_BustedChops · Post by **ttf_BustedChops** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:27 pm

Ah okay, some pictures, sorry iPhone quality for now...

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:31 pm

The patent number you mention id for the curved hand grip. The serial number would put that horn about 1968 or early 1969, not 1949. Earl made 12 bass bones in his time. I can account for 11 horns and 1 bell from a damaged horn. All of his bell were stamped with 1.) Earl Williams 2.)Custom trombones 3.) Burbank Ca. The bass bones in question were made in the Burbank shop. He did some horns in the early 1950's while working for Olds that were a .522 bore and had a flat wrap in the style Olds used at that time. But the bore was not big enough to be a bass bone. The correct bore size for your horn is .565. Measured at the stocking end of the inner tubes. Larry Minick did customize some horns for people after they were purchased from Earl. So that is a very good possibility.

It is also possible that someone used a Williams handgrip and receiver on another horn. The "10" and serial number you mention were stamped on the female half of the receiver. The receiver was soldered together not machined in one piece as they are now. So if someone needed a receiver to fit slide for another horn it was fairly common to use and old Williams receiver. Some pictures would be the telling thing here. There were 2 styles of "F" attachments used by Earl. On is very similar to a 72H Conn. The other was the famous "pigtail wrap". The bell size would have to be 9.5 or 10 inches in diameter. Also the tuning slide would go from the bell stem all the way to about 2 inches on the top side of the valve. Also the tuning slide for the "F" attachment was long enough to be able to be pulled out to "E". It also had a line cut into the inner slide leg to mark the "E" position.

So if you would be kind enough to post a couple of pictures we could make a pretty definite identification. If you are in Southern California, I would like to take a look at the horn.

j

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:34 pm

Seeing your pictures it sure looks like a Williams slide. But not so sure on the bell. Earl also did not make any thing other than a single trigger horn. The bell he made had a very rapid flare. The only thing I can compare it to would be an old Conn Fuchs. To give you an idea of what the taper should look like.

ttf_BustedChops · Post by **ttf_BustedChops** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:48 pm

Thank you for the speedy replies and the corrections. Larry Minick and 1969, not 1949. Williams was working for US Govt at that time, right? Anyhow.

Can confirm that the bell is 9.5 inches. Not too savvy on how to calculate bore. Looks as though there once was a "arrow head" shape on the dorsal of the bell (will re-picture). The "F" attachment is quite long. Also worth noting, the second attachment looks as though it was welded on as an "afterthought"... maybe post assembly by Minick???

Better pics forthcoming. Also, in the SF Bay Area. Would love for you to have a look.

ttf_BustedChops · Post by **ttf_BustedChops** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:03 pm

Hope these shed some more light. Let me know if any more might help.

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:23 am

Quote from: BustedChops on Jun 24, 2011, 10:03PMHope these shed some more light. Let me know if any more might help.

How does it play ? (not only a quality assesment but also ; Bigger / smaller /darker etc.? )
Thanks !

Trond

ttf_BustedChops · Post by **ttf_BustedChops** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:07 am

I don't know if I'll be using the proper vernacular, but the horn plays amazingly.
Slide still has amazing action. The attachment tunning slides are a little bit of a bear to deal with. The tone it produces it is "big" and what I would call "warm", not "tinny". Also, the sound almost doesn't sound like its coming out of anything but the bell, strange statement I know. Its a weird horn.

A little history, my mom purchased the horn from an ex-studio guy named Norm Fleming and I would eventually take lessons from him. He didn't really give me a proper history of the horn.

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:23 pm

That brace of the F side looks like a Williams brace.

ttf_lingon · Post by **ttf_lingon** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:40 am

The long tuning slide starting at the valve also looks Williams.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:24 am

The bell flair looks like Williams, the tuning slide, F slide and hand slide also.
The triggers and the second valve are clearly added by someone else.
Interesting horn!
I would really like to try it.

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:38 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jun 26, 2011, 10:24AMThe bell flair looks like Williams, the tuning slide, F slide and hand slide also.
The triggers and the second valve are clearly added by someone else.
Interesting horn!
I would really like to try it.
Understatement of the day...

You've got something unique there. Treat it well.

If you don't want to enjoy it, I'm sure that there are several good homes here that could help

John, I really think you need to check this thing out for all of us and fill in another chapter of the Williams basses.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_Orffbone · Post by **ttf_Orffbone** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:04 pm

Does that second valve addition look like Minick's work to anyone else?

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:08 pm

Quote from: Orffbone on Jun 26, 2011, 01:04PMDoes that second valve addition look like Minick's work to anyone else?
Look very much like work Minick has done with other horns.

ttf_BustedChops · Post by **ttf_BustedChops** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:25 pm

My girlfriend and I are planning to take a trip to Disneyland in the near future; if I haven't found a new home or more definitive model information by then, I would love to have JNoxon take her for a spin.

I really appreciate the assistance you guys have given me, as well as the enthusiasm for her, the horn.

I would really kill to determine its exact model, but knowing that its a "bone"ified Williams bass will have to do until then.

Thanks again. As always, if there are another indicators in regards to Model, please let me know.

Chris