TromboneChat

Quote from: BustedChops on Jun 26, 2011, 08:25PMMy girlfriend and I are planning to take a trip to Disneyland in the near future; if I haven't found a new home or more definitive model information by then, I would love to have JNoxon take her for a spin.John is in Apple Valley (quite a ways from Disneyland), but he does come down to Bones West (which is reasonably close to Disneyland) once in a while. A Williams bass would certainly attract some attention at Bones West rehearsal.

Norm Fleming moved up to Cambria fairly recently; did you mom get it from him up there, or back when he was still down in SoCal?

The mention of Norm Fleming reminds me of a story I heard from his son, Matt. Matt's a pretty go 'bone player, but he repairs clocks for a living. Seems he once had a lady bring in a (or maybe it was a house call?) clock with a mechanism that looked like someone had attempted to do some do-it-yourself repairs on it. Turns out the lady was Earl Williams' daughter and her dad was the one who'd tinkered (inexpertly and unsuccessfully, according to Matt) with the clock.

That is a bizarre story.

Norm moved to Cambria sometime in '99.  He did some teaching at a community college I was attending.  My Jazz Combo professor hooked me up with him because the big band was about to go to Montreux and I needed to convert from playing 2nd tenor to bass. I took lessons for a little while before I transfered to a school up north.

He would also talk about his son who also played trombone, guess that was Matt.

Its a small world.
 

Guardian of the Williams'. Get too close and she'll scratch lol

Those look like two 7's!!!      Way cool!!!      

Aloha,
Richard

http://www.brasserie-shop.de/shop/detail/de/220321/Instrumente/Posaunen/Tenorposaune

Quote from: lowerlip on Jun 28, 2011, 01:30PMhttp://www.brasserie-shop.de/shop/detail/de/220321/Instrumente/Posaunen/Tenorposaune

Wow, that looks gorgeous!

Quote from: lowerlip on Jun 28, 2011, 01:30PMwww.brasserie-shop
doesn't mean what I thought it means I guess

all I saw was a trombone.  

Quote from: lowerlip on Jun 28, 2011, 01:30PMhttp://www.brasserie-shop.de/shop/detail/de/220321/Instrumente/Posaunen/Tenorposaune

Early LA 6.... Cool. 
Looks like my early LA 4. 

T.

Quote from: lowerlip on Jun 28, 2011, 01:30PMhttp://www.brasserie-shop.de/shop/detail/de/220321/Instrumente/Posaunen/Tenorposaune


What is that, Dutch money? German money?   Anyone done the conversion to us dollars??   

$2,887.14

anyone know the owner of the horn?

Thanks Chris.

Just a random question, but were Model 7's & 9's made at Donelson, Tennessee? I know there's bells stamped as such, but I've never actually seen one fully assembled.

Quote from: Dan Martin on Jun 29, 2011, 02:36PManyone know the owner of the horn?

Thanks Chris.

Not sure but it might well be my old horn as I sold it to Jonathan Myers who half owns the Brasserie.
He now lives in Vermont but still has a 50% share in the store and is still actively running the Brasserie.

If it is my old horn then Jonathan has been playing it for the past 10 years!!!
It's a fantastic example of a WW and is a bargain at that price...... Even in the USA!!!!

I have a model 8 from the same era.  I want a 6 like this one, and would be happy to pay the 2800 bucks for the horn if the seller will give me some time to gather the funds.  I don't speak german either. 

Contact Michael Danner at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]

Don't worry about not speaking German he speaks perfect English.

Tell him I sent you....... 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Earl-Williams-Model-10-Bass-Trombone-Minick-Dbl-Rotor-/250851493094?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item3a67ea04e6

Quote from: lowerlip on Jul 08, 2011, 02:05PMhttp://cgi.ebay.com/Earl-Williams-Model-10-Bass-Trombone-Minick-Dbl-Rotor-/250851493094?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item3a67ea04e6
If the seller is still following this thread, I'd like to offer a suggestion: please remove the black tape. Things that I cannot see make me nervous.

I have to agree with JohnL.  I thought the same thing when I looked at the pictures and saw the black tape.  For one thing, it obscures the "J" tuning slide if, in fact, there is one.

Quote from: jnoxon on Jun 24, 2011, 09:34PMSeeing your pictures it sure looks like a Williams slide. But not so sure on the bell. Earl also did not make any thing other than a single trigger horn. The bell he made had a very rapid flare. The only thing I can compare it to would be an old Conn Fuchs. To give you an idea of what the taper should look like.

Sorry to bring this up well after the post was made... but....
The Conn Fuchs flare is the same as the Elkhart 62H flare.... and a lot of people say they were not as open as the Bach 50B flare. I have measured a Fuchs and an Elkhart 62H and they could have been (and probably were) made on the same mandrel. If the Williams is bigger, I have no idea if anyone else made a similar bell.
Does the list of known Williams basses include the one that went to the UK in the 1970's ? It was owned for a while by Dave Petkin who used to play bass at Covent Garden.... and was converted to indi with some Boosey inline valves. No idea what happened to that horn.

Chris Stearn

Hello.
Actually my Fuchs has a hair larger belltaper than the Elkhart 62H.
I have not measure it up or so, but mutes goes a little futher in.
Maybe it was two or more mandrels after all ??
The taper looks really close to this Williams here.
There´s some pics in the gallery along with a G. Roberts Olds, and a small taper Conn 70H.
Thanks, Niclas.

Quote from: MT Vernon 45 on Jul 11, 2011, 05:53AMHello.
Actually my Fuchs has a hair larger belltaper than the Elkhart 62H.
I have not measure it up or so, but mutes goes a little futher in.
Maybe it was two or more mandrels after all ??
The taper looks really close to this Williams here.
There´s some pics in the gallery along with a G. Roberts Olds, and a small taper Conn 70H.
Thanks, Niclas.

Thanks for that... my Fuchs LOOKS bigger, but my best shot at measuring had me think it is the same as the 62H that I had... it is very hard to measure bell flares, but I felt that I was looking at two bells that were the same, and if they were different, it was a small difference. My Fuchs is 9 1/2", my 62H was 9 3/4"... my Holtons are 9 3/8"..... mutes look to be sitting differently in each of them, even though they all measure very close to each other. Now, an Edwards bell.... THAT'S bigger !!! 

Chris Stearn

Sorry, newcomer to the thread here. I apologize in advance if this has been previously stated or debunked.

I believe Ed Kleinhammer played a Williams bell for the last 10 or so yrs of his career in the Chicago SO. If I recall correctly from sitting next to it in lessons, it was 10in and had a VERY big flare that seemed bigger/wider than my Bach 50. I also seem to recall it being a very heavy horn. (only the bell was Williams, the rest was the ultimate Franken-bone)

Yes that did include that horn you mention in the UK also for a very short period of time there was a dealer in Malmo Sweden, working from memory here not notes in files. This was right before Earl passed, so only one bunch of horns went there. It also includes one horn that was thrown under the bus on the Buddy Rich Band. That was a salvaged bell. The horn Kleinhammer played is still in existence. One thing I have found to be kind of funny, to me, but I do respect the individuals wishes, is that about 5 of the horns owners do not want anyone to know where they are.


One thing to remember was that Earl bought the bell prior to them being turned. He did his magic in the turning process. And that mandrel still exists.

Chris thanks for the info on the 62H and Fuchs being the same. I double  a very little bit on bass it has never been of particular interest to me, so I never paid any attention to the variations of the bass bones. They all look about the same to me. I grew up in the era of single triggers, 2 triggers is way to confusing for my simple reptilian brain. I will stick to the single trigger Williams I have!

I am always interested in any new info on Williams, particularly the bass bones because there are/were so few compared to the tenors. It has always fascinated me how an old man in Burbank Ca got his horns world wide attention prior to this electronic age we know live in.

Thanks for that info.... the joy of having experts here on the forum
Bells made on the same mandrel can vary... I have owned examples that I watched being made on the same mandrel that turned out slightly different.... in fact, I just checked the Fuchs against my two 1963 Holton 169s.... one Holton bell is slightly tighter than the Fuchs, the other is the same size !!!
I remember seeing the Kleinhammer horn back in 1980.... looked super big to me at the time 
Hope the Min-Williams finds a good home....very interesting horn.

Chris Stearn

John-

Would you consider the Williams I had to be one of the count or an oddity because of the Conn 72H parts?

Thanks, Bob

It is one of them, no doubt. The first 5 or so were similar to the 72H, and the last ones had the "pigtail" wrap.

Quote from: jnoxon on Jul 11, 2011, 06:43PMIt is one of them, no doubt. The first 5 or so were similar to the 72H, and the last ones had the "pigtail" wrap.

Was the bell taper also different ? ...It seems that the bell taper of the pigtail- Williams is the big difference (except for the build quality of course) between Williams and other basses.

John, you said that the bell mandrel of the 10 is still in exsitence... Could we hope for some copies in the future ? I know Kanstul delivers their instruments pretty much on order for instance ( If You pay the sticker price/ can stand the waiting time/ accept the non return policy) ?
 Also ; was there any special way he did the bells; one-piece, old pre war Conn two-piece hand hammered etc. ?

Trond

Not a Williams, but something that tries to emulate the real stuff. I just surfed past the Hornguys Kanstul 1606 page and noticed the 1606ST slide tuning version. Anyone that have tried it? If so, impressions?
 

They made me a 1607ST a couple of years ago.  I love it.  I had it done entirely in gold brass, so it's dark and warm, with a very clear and pure sound.  Very big sound, too.  It works great as an orchestral small bore or combo horn, which is just what I wanted.  If I were doing any kind of big band stuff, yellow brass might be better.  Recently, though, I have found a mouthpiece that my chops like and that will brighten it up and give some more edge, so maybe that would work okay, too.

I had a 1606 and really liked it, but my .547 horn is also TIS, and I wanted to see what a modern TIS .500 bore would be like, so Kanstul did it for me.  Turned out great, so I sold the 1606. 

I don't know how they compare to a Williams, and some have said they're not that close.  That may be, and I don't care, I think the ones I have owned have been outstanding horns in their own right.

spoke to  a  ''new  guy''   today on phone 
  he  has some great stories  about earl [pre  1940]
 i am hoping  he will join up  soon  and find a warm welcome to
the williams club ----

Williams 4....

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,57389.0.html

T.

Quote from: pfred on Jul 12, 2011, 10:40PM...I think the ones I have owned have been outstanding horns in their own right...
Thanks for the quick review. 

Quote from: jnoxon on Jul 11, 2011, 09:52AMYes that did include that horn you mention in the UK also for a very short period of time there was a dealer in Malmo Sweden, working from memory here not notes in files. This was right before Earl passed, so only one bunch of horns went there. It also includes one horn that was thrown under the bus on the Buddy Rich Band. That was a salvaged bell. The horn Kleinhammer played is still in existence. One thing I have found to be kind of funny, to me, but I do respect the individuals wishes, is that about 5 of the horns owners do not want anyone to know where they are.


One thing to remember was that Earl bought the bell prior to them being turned. He did his magic in the turning process. And that mandrel still exists.

Chris thanks for the info on the 62H and Fuchs being the same. I double  a very little bit on bass it has never been of particular interest to me, so I never paid any attention to the variations of the bass bones. They all look about the same to me. I grew up in the era of single triggers, 2 triggers is way to confusing for my simple reptilian brain. I will stick to the single trigger Williams I have!

I am always interested in any new info on Williams, particularly the bass bones because there are/were so few compared to the tenors. It has always fascinated me how an old man in Burbank Ca got his horns world wide attention prior to this electronic age we know live in.



To my knowledge no horns was delivered to Malmö before Earl passed.
There were 5 horns delivered to Stockholm (still Sweden) before that.
Not that it matters much though.

Still, looking at the pics, even through the black tape the contour does revile the typical first part Williams tuning slide, the last one is obviously very much alike Williams.

The bell profile does not look like Conn 62 or Fuchs to me, either it is Williams bell or somebody made a good copy. How likely is that?

The second trigger is of course not made by Williams, it even say so on the trigger.
I have all the understanding in the world for sticking to the single trigger, there are lost of reasons for it.

Last year I hade a chance to listen to the Williams 10 I sold many years ago, I understand why the guy who owns it does not sell it, he sounds fabulous on it.
Actually I don’t think I did, I have listened to some records where I played it, the sound is very big and I dominate the whole section; the horn was a weapon in my hands.
Bach 45 and Kanstul works much better for me.
Earl Williams made fantastic horns, but no horns fit everybody.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 16, 2011, 03:35AM...There were 5 horns delivered to Stockholm (still Sweden) before that...
Not that it matters much though.

As you say. However, I think it was 6 horns? One 6, one 8, three 9s and your 10? Then there were a couple more, at least one 9, that were imported privately at about that same time.

You are rigth John! 6 horns! The other ones I don't know much about.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 17, 2011, 01:45AMYou are rigth John! 6 horns! The other ones I don't know much about.
If I remember correctly the privately imported 9 I thought of was Berra P's. I never had a chance to play it, neither do I know where it is now... Heard about a 9 out in the suburbs though, maybe it is that one?!

A couple of years ago I also saw an old small Wallace Williams tenor at the local shop. So maybe there are a couple of instruments hiding out there.

Hi All,

I just wanted to report that I've added a Burbank 8 to my list of Williams horns.  I'm very excited about this because this was the horn I originally wanted to buy when I visited the shop back in '71, but Bob thought I'd be better off with the 6 because it was more versatile.  I've never regretted getting the 6 but I'm thrilled that I now have an 8.  It's heavier than I remember it being but I'm 40 years older and not in such good shape.     I'm loving playing this thing, though.  It's everything I remember it being and it gives me such a beautiful sound.   

Aloha,
Richard

Congratulations Richard!!!   

You are in for  heap of fun, but now the really hard choices kick in:  Which horn to play today??

 

Cool deal Richard!

Shoot me a PM sometime, and compare the two. 
Interested in your thoughts.

T.

PM sent.   

Hi All,

Well, I promised someone that I'd post some pictures of my Burbank 8 so there they are.  I'm sure loving playing this horn.      

Aloha,
Richard

 

Oh my gosh that's gorgeous Richard!!! 

Looking at these pictures I'm struck yet again by just how beautiful simple design can be.  To my eyes, Earl somehow got his designs "just right."

Congrats again.  I wish I lived closer so I could come over to play.   

Hi one,

Well if you ever come to the island, you're welcome to come over and check out my horns.  I did have my 8 overhauled because it was my dream horn and I wanted it to look beautiful.  Remember that I also have a 4.   

Aloha,
Richard

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jul 26, 2011, 03:58PMHi All,

I just wanted to report that I've added a Burbank 8 to my list of Williams horns.  I'm very excited about this because this was the horn I originally wanted to buy when I visited the shop back in '71, but Bob thought I'd be better off with the 6 because it was more versatile.  I've never regretted getting the 6 but I'm thrilled that I now have an 8.  It's heavier than I remember it being but I'm 40 years older and not in such good shape.     I'm loving playing this thing, though.  It's everything I remember it being and it gives me such a beautiful sound.   

Aloha,
Richard

Congratulations Richard.  The Williams 8 is a great horn. 

# 3 is here.
More updates to come.
That is all....

T.

Congratulations T!      

Let us know how it plays for you.   

Aloha,
Richard

Will do Richard.
It's either a .500 bore (like a 6), or a .522 (like an 8).
I don't have an accurate caliper, but I'm thinking .500 bore.
Polishing the horn out, and gonna get a good chem clean and slide alignment.
Then I'll give it a good test run. 

T.

Quote from: tsmart on Aug 16, 2011, 05:33AMWill do Richard.
It's either a .500 bore (like a 6), or a .522 (like an 8).
I don't have an accurate caliper, but I'm thinking .500 bore.
Polishing the horn out, and gonna get a good chem clean and slide alignment.
Then I'll give it a good test run. 

T.

I hope it's a great player...  But it probably is since it's a Williams.            

Aloha,
Richard