TromboneChat

Ezra 4 text
Ezra 5 text
Ezra 6 text

Highlights

 - The Temple is rebuilt.

Summary

Chapter 4
 - The enemies of Judah and Benjamin try to stop the rebuilding of the temple
 - They write a letter to Ataxerxes telling him that the Jew's will cause trouble if they are allowed to build the temple and walls of Jerusalem
 - Ataxerxes told them to stop building.

Chapter 5
- A couple of prophets got the Jews to restart building the temple and the walls
- The govenor of the province Beyong the River saw what was going on and wrote another letter - this time to King Darius - to see if it was permitted. The letter said that the Jews claimed that the work had been approved by Cyrus, King of Babylon  who had provivided treasure for it.  They asked if this could be checking in the Archives.

Chapter 6
 - Darius confirms that Cyrus issued a decree that the temple be rebuilt, that the Jew's be recompensed for the cost of building, and anyone interfering with the building be punished. 
 - So the temple was built and the people of Israel dedicated it with a great celebration
 - And then everyone celebrated Passover too.


Questions and Observations

1) The enemies of Judah were people in the surounding nataions that the Babylonians had bought in to replace the Northern Tribes with when they took Isreal into exile.  These became the Samritans we read about in the gospels.
2) We've got multiple kings that have an interest in whether the Temple can be built or not: Ataxerxes, Cyrus, Darius...
3) I guess that the temple would have been an important symbol of their nationhood as well as a religious place.

It's slightly tempting to insert the Books of Haggai and Zechariah in here from the minor prophets, given that we are told that they were agitating behind the events described. Perhaps best just to keep to the prescribed pattern though. It'll be good for our recall to come back to the material when we get there.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 18, 2016, 03:57AM1) The enemies of Judah were people in the surounding nataions that the Babylonians had bought in to replace the Northern Tribes with when they took Isreal into exile.  These became the Samritans we read about in the gospels.
The rejection of the Judahites of the offer of help looks a most foolish act. The hand of friendship is extended, but all they can muster in response is basic grade spiky nationalism - 'you are not like us, and have nothing to offer to us, go away'. The stage is set for later conflict, and the Judahites seem very culpable for it.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 18, 2016, 03:57AM2) We've got multiple kings that have an interest in whether the Temple can be built or not: Ataxerxes, Cyrus, Darius...
Timeline:

• [li]Cyrus the Great (reigned 539-530 BC) conquered Babylonia in 539 BC after 20 years of empire-building, shortly thereafter sending this group of Judahites home. Cyrus died in late 530 BC, in battle in central Asia.[/li][li]Cambyses II (reigned 530-522 BC) succeeded his father Cyrus, and extended the Achaemenid empire into Egypt. In 522 BC he received word that he had been usurped at home by his brother Bardiya, and set off to challenge him, but died shortly after.[/li][li]Bardiya (or an imposter using his name) (reigned 522 BC) ruled for only a few months, in 522 BC.[/li][li]Darius the Great (reigned 522-486 BC) was part of a group of Persian nobles that deposed Bardiya. A powerfully brutal but enlightened figure that set many administrative affairs in order, he reigned until 486 BC, when he died of illness.[/li][li]Xerxes I (reigned 486-465 BC), son of Darius the Great, is the Persian king etymologically identified with the biblical "Ahasuerus".[/li][li]Artaxerxes I (reigned 465-424 BC), son of Xerxes I[/li][li]Xerxes II (reigned 424 BC), son of Artaxerxes I, assassinated by his brother Sogdianus after only 45 days on the throne[/li][li]Sogdianus (reigned 424-423 BC), brother and murderer of Xerxes II, killed by his half-brother Ochus, who took the throne as Darius II[/li][li]Darius II (reigned 423-404 BC), illegitimate son of Artaxerxes I[/li]

Then several Artaxerxes followed, the third of which (Artaxerxes IV) has been gloried in the arresting style of "Arses of Persia"... Then a third Darius, and then Alexander the Great swept in to claim the whole enterprise for Greek culture, and that was it for the Persians.

So, how do we tie what we're reading here up against these Persian monarchs? Cyrus is easy. Cambyses and the brief Bardiya are skipped over in the phrase "all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia". Then a little later we read that the temple was finally completed in the 6th year of Darius after resuming in his 2nd year, i.e. 521-517 BC or so, after 21 years of on-and-off construction.

However, there is some chronological difficulty here that I am struggling to understand. "Ahasuerus" is strongly identified with Xerxes I (and he turns up under this name also in the Book of Esther). The Samaritans (I'll label them so for convenience, although we note that they hadn't yet formed a coherent enough group to have had the name applied to them) "wrote an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem", at the start of the reign of Ahasuerus i.e. Xerxes I. Then a letter halting work is sent to Artaxerxes.

The major difficulty is that Darius preceded both Xerxes and Artaxerxes. At the beginning of the reign of Xerxes would have been in the mid 480s BC, while during the reign of Artaxerxes could have been anywhere in a near-40-year span stretching to 424 BC, long after the events depicted.

Plausible ideas to resolve this conflict may be found here. Suggestion one is that Cambyses and Bardiya are referred to confusingly using the names of two sequential slightly later monarchs by coincidence. Suggestion two is that Ezra 4 is grouped by theme rather than by chronological sequence. Of the two, I find suggestion two more compelling as it doesn't suppose a handy coincidence, and we have seen elsewhere that Biblical writers have not always felt the need to follow material in precise chronology, jumping forward sometimes to insert material that has thematic relevance.

With this interpretation, Ezra 4:1-5 stands as a description of the difficulties of building the temple, then Ezra 4:6 and Ezra 4:7-24 as further anecdotes detailing the same kind of trouble. However, even this doesn't leave us clear. Verses 23-24 are quite clear: "Then, when the copy of King Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum and Shimshai the scribe and their associates, they went in haste to the Jews at Jerusalem and by force and power made them cease. Then the work on the house of God that is in Jerusalem stopped, and it ceased until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia." Artaxerxes' letter caused work to stop until the reign of Darius. Perhaps it must be Cambyses and Bardiya after all. Perhaps the writer of Ezra simply got names wrong...

The overall message of this segment of the text seems to be that the Samaritans played unfair with authority to get the Judahites banned from building work, but then the Judahites played unfair with Darius's new authority to get started again...

Ezra 7 text
Ezra 8 text

Highlights

 - Many years later (458 BC), Ezra the scribe leads a new tranche of returnees

Summary

Ch. 7
 - Ezra is commissioned by Artaxerxes to go to Jerusalem, taking as many of the remaining exiled Judahites with him as are willing to go
 - Artaxerxes commands his officials to expedite their passage in generous terms
 - Ezra warms to his commission
Ch. 8
 - A census of the new returnees is given - totalling 1,496 people
 - Ezra finds that he doesn't have enough Levites among the priests for his tastes and sends for more
 - After four months, they reach Jerusalem, bringing their monetary gifts, and people celebrate

Questions and Observations

1) We've skipped over 59 years between chapters, from the 6th year of Darius to the 7th year or Artaxerxes. Plenty of events there, including the contents of some of the upcoming books, I believe?
2) A genealogy is given for Ezra, back to Aaron in 15 generations. Given from the text that Ezra lived in the days of Artaxerxes (mid 400s BC), and assuming a standard generation length of 25 years, this only takes us back to the mid 800s BC for Aaron, when Samuel/Kings told us that the two kingdoms period went back further than this. This makes me wonder if perhaps the Moses/Aaron narrative should be read not in chronological sequence with the historical Samuel/Kings narrative, but as parallel events. This wouldn't mesh with the text regarding David and other early kings, but, given that that was all written down much later anyhow, we can't dismiss such a possibility out of hand. On the other hand, perhaps generations are omitted (the conventional explanation). It's hard to be truly certain of many things in this.
3) The end of chapter 7 is written in the first person. Does this mean that Ezra authored the Book of Ezra? Or at least this portion of it?
4) 1,500 people is a small number compared to those that had already returned (42,000).
5) The Persian oversight of this whole enterprise is clear from the end of chapter 8 - the taxes due are delivered. "Render unto Caesar" etc. - except that of course Caesar hasn't been born yet... But, far to the West, the beginnings of the mighty empire that will ultimately greatly shape the story that we are telling are starting to unfold...

Ezra 9 text
Ezra 10 text

Highlights

 - Ezra's programme of ethnic cleansing

Summary

Ch. 9
 - Ezra is informed that the earlier group of returnees has been regularly marrying outside that group
 - He is horrified, and prays on the matter in public
Ch. 10
 - The people are contrite
 - A purge is undertaken: Those that have married non-returnees are identified, and compelled to give up their spouses and their children by them

Questions and Observations

1) Goodness, I wasn't expecting this. It's all been relatively civilised in the last few chapters, but this is not nice stuff.
2) That said, rigid inward turning on ethnic lines is hardly new behaviour as described in the text for this group of people. As recently as Ezra 4 we saw them rejecting the offers of help of those around them for no stated reason other than petty nationalism.
3) It doesn't say where the unwanted wives and children are "put away" to. One might suspect a simple casting out to fend for themselves.
4) Inbreeding within a limited group is in general not a clever strategy. Thousands of people are a big enough group not to cause genetic problems, though.
5) This concludes Ezra, and we move on to Nehemiah. Note that the two were originally a single text, now known as Ezra-Nehemiah. They were separated by Christianity a couple of centuries AD.
6) After Nehemiah, we take our first diversion from the Protestant text, moving into Tobit, which is in the RC bible, but not the Protestant or Hebrew bibles.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis

• [li]Big picture stuff
  • [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
  [/li][li]Abraham; extensive travels, original covenant, Lot, not sacrificing Isaac[/li][li]Jacob; conflict with twin Esau, banishment, wives, 12 sons[/li][li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]

Exodus

• [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]

Leviticus

• [li]...many laws are given[/li]

Numbers

• [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 16, 2016, 04:49AMPart II - The Deuteronomistic History
Deuteronomy

• [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]

Joshua

• [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]

Judges

• [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]

Ruth

• [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]

1 Samuel

• [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]

2 Samuel

• [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]

1 Kings

• [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]

2 Kings

• [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
  [/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 15, 2016, 06:40AMPart III - The Chronicler's History
1 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning[/li][li]Return of some exiles to Judah
  [/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly
  • [li]David secures the AotC[/li][li]David breeds[/li][li]David defeats enemies[/li][li]David arranges for Solomon to build the temple[/li]
  [/li]

2 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh
  • [li]Solomon builds the temple and is great[/li][li]Kingdom splits[/li][li]Long succession of kings, some good, some bad[/li][li]Judah squashed between Babylon and Egypt, falls to Babylon; population deported to exile[/li]
  [/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]

Ezra

• [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple[/li][li]Decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 20, 2016, 06:17AM
1) Goodness, I wasn't expecting this. It's all been relatively civilised in the last few chapters, but this is not nice stuff.
2) That said, rigid inward turning on ethnic lines is hardly new behaviour as described in the text for this group of people.

I can understand you reacting this way, you're nice and civilised (British? ) and you assume that as the default for other people too (even fictional) unless they are villains.  But from the perspective of the plot I don't think its unexpected.  They are also people of their times with different understandings of what it is to be civilised.

So why am I not surprised. 

The writer has been emphasising the continuity of the current exiles with the Israelites who went through the Egyptian exile and exodus, and had made a covenant with God that had reams of pages on being faithful to The Lord by staying holy. He's done this by referring back to events of the exodus, by the genealogies that link them and by the shared practices detailed in the covenant and the setting up of the temple.  These new ex-exiles are keen to be just as much God's chosen people as the originals.  At least that's the impression that I get.

And remember back to the Pentateuch where holy = unclean = separate.  The covenant required them to stay faithful to God and holy.  If they did, then God would protect and bless them in the land he had given them.  If they didn't he would curse them and ultimately banish them from the their land.  Staying holy involved avoiding the myriad of infractions that the law covered, but the big things they had to watch out for was not worshipping other gods, like the other nations did.   They were warned that if they intermarried and mixed with the surrounding they would be corrupted to do these very bad things. And we can see that their history from the exodus out of Egypt to their recent exile is replete with examples of the corrupting examples of the surrounding nations.

So it seems that the newly returned exiles are trying to recreate the ideal faithful community at the time of Solomon, where God lived with them and they were faithful to him.  (Yes I know this never really happened, but its what Ezra was aiming at and what the writer was setting out as the goal).  To do this they had to stay holy which included being separate from the nations.

So for me the purge isn't unexpected, at least from the plot.

Quote... As recently as Ezra 4 we saw them rejecting the offers of help of those around them for no stated reason other than petty nationalism.

its more about staying separate from the surrounding nations so they wouldn't be corrupted. 

Quote3) It doesn't say where the unwanted wives and children are "put away" to. One might suspect a simple casting out to fend for themselves.

No, it doesn't.  Can I assume that they sent them back to their parents with a care package?

Seriously though, the wives weren't necessarily "unwanted" by their husbands and any friends they had.  I expect that there were a range of scenario's in play.  There were 108 couples listed and it took 3 months to consider all the cases so it wasn't pushed through as fast as I expect just "casting out" 100 pre-identified wives would be.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 20, 2016, 08:55PMSo for me the purge isn't unexpected, at least from the plot.
I agree that it makes sense in terms of the priorities of Ezra, priorities that he apparently views himself as caretaking for his nation. I just don't like his priorities.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 20, 2016, 08:55PMits more about staying separate from the surrounding nations so they wouldn't be corrupted.
To me, this is the very definition of "petty nationalism". People considering themselves special because of the particular grouping that they were born into. Very dangerous attitudes that if not held in check pretty much inevitably lead to violence in time. Such attitudes have still not withered away as they should - someone even posted an American Exceptionalist screed in the Trump thread a couple of days ago in the kind of naked jingoism that one might imagine the two world wars ought to have killed for good in any thinking individual.

To you, perhaps, the religious element of the conviction lends it legitimacy as a philosophical position? To me it doesn't at all.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 20, 2016, 08:55PMNo, it doesn't.  Can I assume that they sent them back to their parents with a care package?

Seriously though, the wives weren't necessarily "unwanted" by their husbands and any friends they had.  I expect that there were a range of scenario's in play.  There were 108 couples listed and it took 3 months to consider all the cases so it wasn't pushed through as fast as I expect just "casting out" 100 pre-identified wives would be.
Yeah, it must have been very messy, and if those decreeing the casting-out had any humanity at all they would have been lenient on such things as forced-separated spouses staying in contact afterwards, providing support. But then, casting them out shows a definite lack of humanity, so who knows?

Also - 108 couples out of 40,000 odd population is a small effect. Something like 1 in 150 babies born not pure returned Judahite. Hardly something to create significant change statistically. Pursuing it would have been very much using dogma to make a painful example of a small minority for the viewing of the majority.

Nehemiah 1 text
Nehemiah 2 text

Highlights

 - Nehemiah, a Judahite and powerful figure in Babylonian society, intercedes for Jerusalem

Summary

Ch. 1
 - The narrative shifts - now we hear from Nehemiah, a Judahite in Susa, who is "cupbearer to the king"
 - Nehemiah receives word that those that have returned to Jerusalem are in a sorrily unprotected state, with city walls in disrepair
 - Filled with sadness over the subject, he prays on it
Ch. 2
 - Nehemiah looks miserable as he pours the wine for Artaxerxes, and Artaxerxes asks him why
 - He explains the plight of the returned Judahites and asks for permission to travel to Jerusalem and undertake a programme of wall rebuilding
 - Artaxerxes asks him for timeframes, like any good project manager, and, satisfied with Nehemiah's response, grants him resources to do the job
 - Nehemiah reaches Jerusalem but his mission makes enemies of the neighbours of the Judahites
 - Nehemiah inspires the Judahites to start rebuilding the wall of Jerusalem

Questions and Observations

1) We can date Nehemiah's episode by the phrase "twentieth year of King Artaxerxes". This occurred in 445 BC, some 13 years after Ezra's commission. We might expect Ezra to appear shortly as a powerful figure.
2) Susa is in the SW corner of modern-day Iran, some 223 miles East of Babylon. Jerusalem is some 545 miles West of Babylon, but there is a lot of desert in between, and, following Abraham's model of travelling up the Euphrates and down the coast, we might expect the journey from Susa to Jerusalem to have been over 1,000 miles for Nehemiah.
3) We are told that Nehemiah was "cup bearer to the king", a position that modern eyes might find strange. But in a time when poisoners needed guarding against, the person serving the king his wine was a powerful figure.
4) Jerusalem's neighbours are quick to cast doubt on the legitimacy of Nehemiah's authority.

Nehemiah 3 text
Nehemiah 4 text

Highlights

 - The wall around Jerusalem is rebuilt

Summary

Chapter 3
 - the Judahites get together and build the wall and gates around Jerusalem

Chapter 4
 - Sanballat the Samaritan and Tobiah the Ammonite jeer the Judahites as they build the wall.
 - But the Judahites continued
 - So Sanballat and Tobiah and others plotted to fight against Jerusalem to stop the building.
 - more Judahites are gathered to protect the builders.  The building continued with the workers protected and everyone always ready to respond to attacks.

Questions and Observations

1) did I miss anything significant in ch3?
2) more petty nationalism?
3) it doesn't sound too different to today's situation does it?  There is a different balance, the roles are switched, and less conflict, but similar.  Even then Israel had the support of the current super-power.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 21, 2016, 02:27PM - Sanballat the Samaritan and Tobiah the Ammonite jeer the Judahites as they build the wall.
A couple of linguistic points that come to mind:
1) Tobiah is on an opposing ethnic team. But his name shows that he is a follower of Yahweh (the 'iah' ending). Interesting. We know that Yahweh wasn't only venerated by the Judahites (e.g. the Samaritan version of their religion, which still just about exists today), but this is a rare clear hint.
2) I've been carefully referring to the returnees as "Judahites" because the word "Jews" carries so many overlaid meanings from what came later; it seems to me that we'll do best to avoid inadvertently imposing these on our interpretations as we learn. But these returnees formed the core of the ethnic grouping that history came to know as "Jews".

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 21, 2016, 02:27PM1) did I miss anything significant in ch3?
Don't think so... We could delve into it more, try to understand where and how these people were working. Here's an annotated map of the walls of Nehemiah, for example.

Probably more to be gained by pushing onwards though than by dawdling here trying to reconstruct a millennia-old building project.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 21, 2016, 02:27PM2) more petty nationalism?
I'm sure it continued to be at play, from all corners, not just the Judahites. But there is a qualitative difference between militarily securing the group that you find yourself in from outside threats and the forced expulsion of foreigners. It is one thing to patrol borders looking for attempted illegal entry, quite another to order everyone that doesn't have a particular ethnicity out of them...

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 21, 2016, 02:27PM3) it doesn't sound too different to today's situation does it?  There is a different balance, the roles are switched, and less conflict, but similar.  Even then Israel had the support of the current super-power.

Yes, you're right. I don't know about less conflict - these were bloody times in general, and all the parties would have been very familiar with hardship and the brutalities that that can drive people to. But working under the protection of a stronger power, this does echo the present arrangement in broad outline. Also note that they had effectively been doing this on and off since Egypt first became interested in their territory half a millennium before. By this point, they are so used to being small players in a big world that it makes completely natural sense to work within the structures of others.

That's 200 chapter summaries up for Martin...

Nehemiah 5 text

Highlights

 - Nehemiah is on the side of the poor

Summary

 - The nobles overtax the poor, causing them hardship
 - The poor protest; Nehemiah listens sympathetically and orders the nobles to grant land and goods to the poor
 - Nehemiah lauds himself for having not taken the allowance due to him as governor

Questions and Observations

1) A situation of institutionalised financial inequity leading to mass dissatisfaction. This feels familiar too from the modern context. Redistribution of wealth as the solution - worshippers at the capitalism-loving version of Christianity one can find in the US must skip over this bit when they read.
2) Nehemiah telling us how good he is makes me suspect that he may be flowering the truth slightly. Genuine altruism doesn't tend to lead to a declamation in praise of oneself. Against that, this passage has the flavour of a report - perhaps written for Artaxerxes?
3) We get a definite timespan for Nehemiah as Governor of Judah here - from the 20th year of Artaxerxes to the 32nd, i.e. 445-433 BC.

I just popped in to point out that one or both of you should copy and paste the posts from this thread into a document, if you aren't already. It wouldn't be much trouble, and it would make an entertaining short book.

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 22, 2016, 07:38AM2) Nehemiah telling us how good he is makes me suspect that he may be flowering the truth slightly. Genuine altruism doesn't tend to lead to a declamation in praise of oneself. Against that, this passage has the flavour of a report - perhaps written for Artaxerxes?

Your challenge makes me think more.  And I think that I need to consider 2 different things happening here, each possibly having there own motivation.

1. The report was originally written and published.
2. The report was included in this book and published.

Assuming that the report wasn't just written for this book, then each action could have different motives.

1. Nehemiah could have been boasting or he could have been using his own actions as an example for what he thought future governors should do.  Don't just do as I say, do as I do.  (and I admit I don't know his intent so he may have had something else in mind, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment)

2. I think that the writer of Nehemiah is more likely to not be boasting (on Nehemiah's behalf) but wanting to use his practices as an example of the right thing to do.

FWIW, the altruistic spin fits more in with what Jesus taught so we who think the bible has divine guidance and points to Jesus probably have a cognitive bias to that - so I think my conclusions are likely but far from certain.

Quote from: Piano man on Sep 22, 2016, 11:19AMI just popped in to point out that one or both of you should copy and paste the posts from this thread into a document, if you aren't already. It wouldn't be much trouble, and it would make an entertaining short book.

"entertaining": I'll assume that you're being complimentary and say that you're being too generous.

I've thought of this too, especially around the time that the site went down.  Many of my summaries have been helpfully corrected or supplemented by what Dave has said, and I'd want to include those in the "compilation", so I agree that it would be entertaining and even useful for me, to compile the summaries, but its been slightly too difficult for me to have started.  I guess I just need to get a round tuit.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 22, 2016, 04:43PM"entertaining": I'll assume that you're being complimentary and say that you're being too generous.

I've thought of this too, especially around the time that the site went down.  Many of my summaries have been helpfully corrected or supplemented by what Dave has said, and I'd want to include those in the "compilation", so I agree that it would be entertaining and even useful for me, to compile the summaries, but its been slightly too difficult for me to have started.  I guess I just need to get a round tuit.

I certainly meant it as a compliment, and I think that the conversation would be part of the narrative, including the correctives and supplementary views as well as the summaries. You could certainly exclude the less edifying side arguments from early in the thread, but the back-and-forth between you is enjoyable and sometimes illuminating. It wouldn't take long, splitting up the work--maybe an hour or so--to cut and paste all the posts. You'd lose the headers showing who wrote what, but you could use a one-letter initial to replace it. It would be too ironic to have a book about the Holy Bible with authorship issues.

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 22, 2016, 07:04AMA couple of linguistic points that come to mind:
1) Tobiah is on an opposing ethnic team. But his name shows that he is a follower of Yahweh (the 'iah' ending). Interesting. We know that Yahweh wasn't only venerated by the Judahites (e.g. the Samaritan version of their religion, which still just about exists today), but this is a rare clear hint.

Tobiah is interesting.  
- "The son's of Tobiah" were one of the family groups that returned to Judah in the first tranche in Ezra 2.  They were in the group that couldn't prove that they belonged to Israel.  This doesn't mean that they are the same people but ...
- Tobiah is specified as an Ammonite.  They have been enemies of israel since the return from Egypt. I'd be surprised that the writer would record an Ammonite as a follower of Yahweh.  These old historians seem to write for a purpose rather than exact historical accuracy: it seems that this book was written with the purpose of encouraging the Judahites to be faithful and to keep separate from those wicked nations around them.  The inclusion of an Ammonite with a name that would suggest that he was a follower of JHWH doesn't fit.  Which is my issue, not his.
- The Samaritan worship of The Lord was always considered to be corrupt by the True Believers so they would be

Quote2) I've been carefully referring to the returnees as "Judahites" because the word "Jews" carries so many overlaid meanings from what came later; it seems to me that we'll do best to avoid inadvertently imposing these on our interpretations as we learn. But these returnees formed the core of the ethnic grouping that history came to know as "Jews".

OK
QuoteThat's 200 chapter summaries up for Martin...

Woo Hoo.  How many have you done.  and how many to go?  I know there are 150 psalms coming up.

Quote from: Piano man on Sep 22, 2016, 06:01PMI certainly meant it as a compliment, and I think that the conversation would be part of the narrative, including the correctives and supplementary views as well as the summaries. You could certainly exclude the less edifying side arguments from early in the thread, but the back-and-forth between you is enjoyable and sometimes illuminating. It wouldn't take long, splitting up the work--maybe an hour or so--to cut and paste all the posts.

I think it should be done.  Thanks for the encouragement.

QuoteYou'd lose the headers showing who wrote what, but you could use a one-letter initial to replace it. It would be too ironic to have a book about the Holy Bible with authorship issues.

I actually like the idea of getting some eminent academics to conduct a textual analysis on our book to tell us if the text was written by one or more parties, who wrote what when and what our motivations were.

And its nice to hear from you too PM.

Nehemiah 6 text

Highlights

 - The wall is built despite opposition

Summary

 - Sanballat and Tobiah, and Geshem the Arab try to interfere with the wall building
    - they try 4 times lure Nehemiah to Hakkephirim in the plain of Ono that they can do him harm
    - they write and open letter that there are reports that Nehemiah intends to rebel after the wall is built
 - Shemaiah try to get Nehemiah to seek refuge from attacks in the temple
 - Nehemiah declines the offer saying that Shemaiah has been hired by Tobiah to get him into the temple where he is not supposed to go and give him a bad name.
 - The wall was finished in 52 days.
 - Tobiah had developed an alliance with many Judahite nobles and was exchanging intel about Nehemiah.  And they were telling Nehemiah who good he was.

Questions and Observations

1) Nehemiah seems to have a pretty good intelligence service doesn't he.
2) The bad guys, especially Tobiah the Ammonite, have got lots of contacts and relationships within Jerusalem.

Quote from: Piano man on Sep 22, 2016, 11:19AMI just popped in to point out that one or both of you should copy and paste the posts from this thread into a document, if you aren't already. It wouldn't be much trouble, and it would make an entertaining short book.

Thanks PM. Do you know, I got a little warm feeling from the idea that someone else is reading this and enjoying it? Although anyone else is very welcome to join in with summaries at any time, and their doing so could only increase the worth of the project, it's been great thus far to have Martin as a foil (and I hope he feels the same about me) - we bring alternative directions of view to it, and he is beautifully chilled about looking contentiously at difficult stuff.

With the sometimes precarious nature of the site's existence, the idea of downloading what we're writing here to save for future reference has occurred to me regularly, but I haven't got around to it. I really should - over 1200 replies now, which represent a great deal of accumulated thought even in these bite-sized chunks. Would be a great shame (to me at least) to lose it.

I'm not convinced that the readership for such a book would exceed a small single-digit number of people...

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 22, 2016, 07:28PMI actually like the idea of getting some eminent academics to conduct a textual analysis on our book to tell us if the text was written by one or more parties, who wrote what when and what our motivations were.
I imagine them poring over this stretch... "Piano man"? What was somebody identifying themselves as a keyboard player doing contributing to a forum on trombone playing? Perhaps he's an artefact of later redaction. Maybe one of the two main contributors wanted to give the impression to later readers that their work had more general interest than it did, and was a Billy Joel fan... Hold on, are we certain that "drizabone" and "MoominDave" had separate existence? The whole is after all reminiscent of a classic dialogue format of literature...

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 22, 2016, 07:28PMAnd its nice to hear from you too PM.

Yes! More of this please. Doesn't this beat butting heads over Trump and Clinton?

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 22, 2016, 07:21PMWoo Hoo.  How many have you done.  and how many to go?  I know there are 150 psalms coming up.

I'm currently on 217 - that period around your skiing holiday in 1 Chronicles tipped the balance the other way for the moment, after a long period in which you were ahead by some way. Total done 419 to date, total remaining 909 including the Apocrypha. We're definitely moving through the material faster than we were at the start.

I devoted a little time a month or so ago to making the list of chapters more fancy. It now covers the whole book and totals contributors up by each book, section, testament, and overall. Perhaps the most striking chapter number point is the contrast between the lengths of the Old and New Testaments - if we'd omitted the Old Testament, we'd have finished the project long ago - only 260 chapters in the NT compared to 1068 in the RC OT or 931 in the Protestant OT.

As I've said before (possibly in a private message to Martin now I think about it), Psalms was where a childhood attempt to read this book stalled. I have hope that we have enough momentum here not to suffer a similar fate!

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 22, 2016, 08:54PM - Shemaiah try to get Nehemiah to seek refuge from attacks in the temple
 - Nehemiah declines the offer saying that Shemaiah has been hired by Tobiah to get him into the temple where he is not supposed to go and give him a bad name.
Nehemiah considering himself unable to enter the temple is interesting. His Wikipedia article makes the point that he may have been a eunuch, prohibited from entering the temple by Mosaic law. Apparently, the Septuagint has a different but similar-sounding word in place of the word for "cup-bearer" in the text, a word meaning "eunuch".

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 22, 2016, 08:54PM1) Nehemiah seems to have a pretty good intelligence service doesn't he.
He certainly seems to have at a minimum excellent intuition about the motives of those around him. Yes, you're almost certainly right.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 22, 2016, 08:54PM2) The bad guys, especially Tobiah the Ammonite, have got lots of contacts and relationships within Jerusalem.

I think this helps illustrate what a melting pot the area was at the time. Only 150 years before this, Assyria had replaced the deported population with settlers - various ethnicities thrown together in a new land given to them - it makes me think of the US, albeit on a different scale. Maybe we should think of Samaria 590 BC as New York 1850 AD.

Ezra really was fighting against the tide in trying to impose a notion of racial purity. And it looks all the less meaningful when one considers that the exiled Judahites were themselves the product of many centuries of interbreeding with neighbouring tribes.

Nehemiah 7 text

Highlights

 - Civic appointments and review of returnees

Summary

 - Wall completed, doors inserted
 - Authority appointed and told to appoint guards; not to open the gates too much, as the inhabitants are relatively few for the size of Jerusalem
 - Nehemiah reads the Book of Ezra, and replicates the census information from Ezra 2

Questions and Observations

1) Hanani and Hananiah - two separate people doing the same job or one with two versions of his name?
2) It is narratively odd to simply reproduce Ezra 2. The impression is of multiple documents later merged together. After this chapter, Nehemiah is referred to as if he's no longer the writer.
3) I note without having gone through all of the numbers that the replication isn't exact - 3,930 of Senaah vs 3,630 in Ezra, for example.
4) It is quite a modern literary device to read about a character reading the section that we've just read! Very 'meta'...

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 23, 2016, 03:48AM4) It is quite a modern literary device to read about a character reading the section that we've just read! Very 'meta'...

then again there's nothing new under the sun ...

Nehemiah 8 text
Nehemiah 9 text
Nehemiah 10 text

Highlights

 - Ezra does church.
 - The Old Covenant again.

Summary

Chapter 8
 - At the beginning of the seventh month, everyone gathers at the Water Gate in Jerusalem.
Ezra brings the Law of Moses and reads it to all the people.
 - He begins at sunrise morning and finishes at midday. Everyone listens attentatively.
 - Nehemiah lists the people who stood on the platform next to Ezra as he read, and also the names of those Levites who helped explain the law so people could understand it.
 - The people weep with guilt when they hear the law being read, since they've been so disobedient. But Nehemiah, Ezra, and the Levites who were teaching the people tell them to rejoice rather mourn. This day is holy to the Lord, and they should eat and drink with joy.
 - So the people rejoice and ask if this stuff will be on the exam.
 - On the second day of the seventh month, the heads of the ancestral houses get together to study the law with Ezra.
 - They discover that during the seventh month they're actually supposed to be celebrating the festival of booths (Sukkot), living in booths outside their houses as taught in the book of Moses that Ezra's been reading.
 - So everyone goes to the hills to gather branches to build booths to live in temporarily.
 - No one had observed this festival since the days of Joshua, so this is a big deal.
 - They observe the holiday for seven days, and then hold a solemn festival.
 - Ezra continues teaching them the law every day during this time.

Chapter 9
 - On the twenty-fourth day of the month, the people are fasting, wearing sackcloth, and putting dirt on their heads—the whole atonement thing.
 - The Israelites separate themselves from the other people living there and confess their sins and disobedience.
 - They read from the Law for a quarter of the day, then confess and worship God for the next quarter.
 - Some of the Levites cry out to God and tell the people to stand up and bless and praise God.
 - Next, Ezra stands up and confesses the people's sins to God. He praises God as the creator of the world, and the God of Abraham.
 - Then Ezra recites the whole history of Israel up until his own time. He begins with the Exodus and the miracles God performed against Pharaoh.
 - He tells it all: God destroying Pharaoh's army, God leading the people as a pillar of fire and a pillar of cloud, giving Moses the Law on Mount Sinai, and providing bread from heaven and water from the rock for the people in the wilderness.
 - Even with all that, the people were disobedient, building the golden calf while Moses was hard at work up on Mt. Sinai.
 - But God was forgiving and continued to sustain them in the wilderness anyway.
 - Then God let the people conquer Canaan and become a populous nation.
 - Still, they were disobedient, killing prophets and committing blasphemies.
 - So God let the people fall into the hands of their enemies, though he's still merciful to them in many small and individual ways. He also instructs them through the prophets.
 - But they still failed to be obedient and were stubborn, so God permitted them to be sent into exile.
 - But he never totally forgot about them.
 - Though God has been merciful to them in letting them return, they're still slaves, says Ezra, ruled by foreign kings.
 - They all make a covenant agreeing to be obedient this time, signed with the names of the officials, priests, and Levites.

Chapter 10

 - another list: the names of the officials, priests, and their associates who signed the covenant.
 - In the covenant, all the people and the nobles promise together to finally follow God's Law as given to Moses. They also promise not to marry the daughters of foreigners, not to buy grain and merchandise that foreigners bring into the city on the Sabbath, and to forgive debts every seventh year.
 - Each person also pledges to give a third of a shekel for the upkeep of the temple and for performing various festivals, offerings, and observances every year.
 - They agree to pay for the wood offering by casting lots, and promise to bring their first fruits, firstborn sons, and firstborn livestock to the temple.
 - They agree to give their first batch of dough to the priests. The priests will also get some of the fruit of their trees, oil, and wine.
 - They also establish guidelines for how the Levites should collect tithes from the people.

Questions and Observations

1) Re 2nd point: they didn't have mobile phones to distract them.  Actually at our church its pretty common for people to have their bibles on their phones, so you see half the congregation reading hard copy and half looking at their phones.  That's where it is easy to get distracted.  If the minister mentions something I'm curious about I want to look it up and find more about it.
2) The way Ezra ran his service is still seen as a pattern for some churches today.
3) 8:3-5 sounds like Revelation 4, a bit.

Nehemiah 11 text

Highlights

 - Who want to live in the city
 - Some more lists

Summary

 - The leaders of the people all live in Jerusalem, and the people themselves cast lots so that a tenth of them will end up living in Jerusalem. People who offer to go voluntarily (without casting lots) are blessed.
 - Nehemiah lists the Benjaminites and Judahites who lead the province and live in Jerusalem. The leaders of the towns actually live in the towns.
 - He also lists the leaders of the priests and Levites, and also briefly mentions gatekeepers, singers, and important people like Pethahiah, a guy who helped the king in matters related to the people. Sort of an ombudsman.
 - Nehemiah concludes with another medium-longish list of all the places and villages where the people lived, including Ono—the valley of the artisans and rumored birthplace of Yoko.

Questions and Observations

1) Who would want to live in the city, with all that pollution and those politicians.
2) They liked their lists didn't they.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 25, 2016, 08:23PMChapter 8
Is this the same copy of the "Book of the Law" that the high priest Hilkiah turned up in the reign of Josiah, some 180 years earlier? It's been a busy couple of centuries.

The re-adoption of the Feast of Booths reminds us that Mosaic law was prior to the exile followed only loosely - and often not really followed at all, with Yahweh only one of a competing pantheon. It is also not clear when the early texts received their final forms.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 25, 2016, 08:23PMChapter 9
I'm intrigued by the phrase "appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt". I don't remember that episode, amongst all the disgruntling going on the desert with Moses - who was it? Perhaps I'm forgetting things...

Ezra is really nailing down the whole "See what happens if you don't obey the authority I represent" thing here, isn't he? I'm starting to feel that Ezra is in a very real sense the father of Judaism - a reasonable position to hold? I guess we'll find out from subsequent books how deeply his reforms took hold.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 25, 2016, 08:23PMChapter 10
 - In the covenant, all the people and the nobles promise together to finally follow God's Law as given to Moses. They also promise not to marry the daughters of foreigners, not to buy grain and merchandise that foreigners bring into the city on the Sabbath, and to forgive debts every seventh year.
Again, Ezra has them pledging to remain ethnically pure. This really isn't an enlightened way to behave, and is bequeathing a whole world of difficulty to those that will follow.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 25, 2016, 08:23PM1) Re 2nd point: they didn't have mobile phones to distract them.  Actually at our church its pretty common for people to have their bibles on their phones, so you see half the congregation reading hard copy and half looking at their phones.  That's where it is easy to get distracted.  If the minister mentions something I'm curious about I want to look it up and find more about it.
Btw, a curious question that popped into my head the other day... Does your minister know about this thread; do you discuss points we raise with them?

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 25, 2016, 08:23PM3) 8:3-5 sounds like Revelation 4, a bit.

Quite possibly nothing to do with this, but I note that there are more 'Books of Ezra' available than we see here - four in total, in fact, of which the fourth is accounted "one of the gems of Jewish apocalyptic literature", but its authorship seems particularly muddled and confused, and it isn't in even the extended list of RC bible books that we're working through - it's in the RC Apocrypha, an 'Apocrypha of Apocrypha' for us here, perhaps. I would suggest that if we still have appetite to read more when we've finished, we then go through some of these parallel texts, words that lie in the Jewish literature tradition of the time, but didn't for whatever reasons make it into the list of books chosen as suitable for these bibles. There are plenty of these. There must be a good list somewhere? For example, the Book of Enoch isn't found in the article I've linked to there.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 25, 2016, 10:15PMNehemiah 11 text

 - Nehemiah concludes with another medium-longish list of all the places and villages where the people lived, including Ono—the valley of the artisans and rumored birthplace of Yoko.
And the very-nearly-humorously-named Michmash...

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 25, 2016, 10:15PM1) Who would want to live in the city, with all that pollution and those politicians.
I can't make out from this chapter whether it would have been more prized to draw the Jerusalem lot or not. Maybe both options had similar merit.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 25, 2016, 10:15PM2) They liked their lists didn't they.

I must admit that quite often I skip over the details of such lists here... I'm sure we miss some interesting moments in so doing, but it's a bit painful at times... Very important in record-keeping to get absolutely everything down though; you never know what snippet might be wanted later.

Nehemiah 12 text

Highlights

 - List of priests and Levites
 - They dedicate the new wall

Summary

 - List of priests and Levites that came with Zerubbabel as first returnees
 - Lists of descent of 2/3 generations from these priests to the priests that have been referenced under Ezra and Nehemiah
 - A service of dedication of the new wall is undertaken - multiple choirs and instrumentalists, many sacrifices
 - Resources are taxed communally as specified by Mosaic law

Questions and Observations

1) Some famous names in the list with Zerubbabel - Jeremiah and Ezra. However, I'm sure this must be a different Ezra, given that Zerubbabel returned in 538 BC and Ezra in 458 BC, 80 years later.
2) It states that the centralised resource management was also in place under Zerubbabel, but this is just after it is introduced as apparently new. Maybe the first returnees set it up, but it lapsed?

Nehemiah 13 text

Highlights

 - Nehemiah returns from reporting to Artaxerxes to find that their reforms have not stuck

Summary

 - The Book of the Law says that no Ammonites or Moabites are permitted to "enter the assembly of God". But the people respond by taking this further and removing these people from them.
 - Eliashib the priest had previously given Tobiah the Ammonite a large chamber in the temple. Nehemiah was at this time in Babylon reporting to Artaxerxes.
 - When Nehemiah returns, he throws Tobiah out angrily, and they zealously cleanse the chambers afterwards.
 - He also finds that the tithing system has broken down, and the temple is not getting the funds it needs to maintain its staff. He takes this in hand.
 - He also finds people working on the Sabbath. He takes this in hand.
 - He also finds marriages across ethnic lines, despite Ezra's earlier crackdown. He takes this in hand, with brutal physical punishments.

Questions and Observations

1) Didn't they already expel all foreigners? The writers really do keep harping on about this ethnic purity nonsense. It's horribly unattractive. In contrast, the people that they were administering seem much more sensibly relaxed about the topic. It's a shame that the sensible people are being led by the dogmatic zealots, one repeated regularly throughout history.
2) Nehemiah went to report to Artaxerxes in his 32nd regnal year - 433 BC. This is the date previously given as the end of his tenure as Governor of Judah - so is his return from leave in a less official capacity?
3) The final line comes over as deeply ironic, though I am sure it was absolutely not intended so. First Nehemiah details brutal actions of religious and racial intolerance that he performs. Then: "Remember me, O my God, for good". Oh yes, we shall remember Nehemiah and Ezra. But not as unalloyed forces for good. Their toxic legacy of separatism tagged onto the Abrahamic sense of being chosen will haunt the relations of the Jewish people for an extremely long time.
4) So, as previously discussed, we now take a diversion from the Protestant text, following the Catholic ordering, into the book of Tobit (followed by Judith, then the canonic Esther, then the two books of Maccabees - quite a bit of Apocrypha coming up). The ESV (English Standard Version) text we've been working from doesn't include the Apocrypha books, so we'll move for the duration of these books to the NRSVCE (New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition) instead.

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis

• [li]Big picture stuff
  • [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
  [/li][li]Abraham; extensive travels, original covenant, Lot, not sacrificing Isaac[/li][li]Jacob; conflict with twin Esau, banishment, wives, 12 sons[/li][li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]

Exodus

• [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]

Leviticus

• [li]...many laws are given[/li]

Numbers

• [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 16, 2016, 04:49AMPart II - The Deuteronomistic History
Deuteronomy

• [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]

Joshua

• [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]

Judges

• [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]

Ruth

• [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]

1 Samuel

• [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]

2 Samuel

• [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]

1 Kings

• [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]

2 Kings

• [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
  [/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 20, 2016, 06:33AMPart III - The Chronicler's History
1 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning[/li][li]Return of some exiles to Judah
  [/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly
  • [li]David secures the AotC[/li][li]David breeds[/li][li]David defeats enemies[/li][li]David arranges for Solomon to build the temple[/li]
  [/li]

2 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh
  • [li]Solomon builds the temple and is great[/li][li]Kingdom splits[/li][li]Long succession of kings, some good, some bad[/li][li]Judah squashed between Babylon and Egypt, falls to Babylon; population deported to exile[/li]
  [/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]

Ezra

• [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple[/li][li]Decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]

Nehemiah

• [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall[/li][li]He and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]

Tobit 1 text

Highlights

 - Returning to the days of the fall of Israel, Tobit is a virtuous young man taken into exile

Summary

 - Tobit is a member of the tribe of Naphtali. The conquering Assyrian king Shalmaneser V takes him into captivity in Nineveh.
 - The tribe of Naphtali's part in Jeroboam's Israel-founding rebellion against Jerusalem is recounted, along with the worship of Jeroboam's idol.
 - But Tobit is a very keen Yahweh-follower of virtue. He takes his tithe to Jerusalem, and, more than that, also takes two further tithes of his income to distribute to the needy there.
 - Tobit was an orphan, but grew up successful, married, and produced a son, Tobias.
 - In Nineveh, Tobit keeps obeying the dietary restrictions of his faith, in contrast to other exiles.
 - Tobit rises to become a buyer of goods for Shalmaneser, specialising in trade with Media.
 - But Shalmaneser died, replaced by Sennacherib, and the roads to Media became unsafe, cutting off Tobit's livelihood.
 - Tobit performed many acts of charity for exiles, including burying their dead bodies when left abandoned.
 - Sennacherib left many dead bodied abandoned when returning from his Judaean campaign. Tobit buried these too, but someone informed Sennacherib, who was angered by this. His property was confiscated, and he and his family fled for their lives.
 - But Sennacherib was shortly afterwards assassinated by his sons. The new king, Esar-haddon, appointed Tobit's nephew Ahikar to important posts, and Ahikar arranged for Tobit to be pardoned.
 - Tobit returns to Nineveh.

Questions and Observations

1) We should in general be asking ourselves: Why is this book non-canonic? We haven't read much of it yet, but already an answer suggests itself to me - this is material dealing with Israel, not Judah; ultimately the Judaic tradition came out of Judah. We'll see if that intuition stacks up as we go on, I hope.
2) The Wikipedia entry on the Book of Tobit has some interesting information.
3) The setting of this story is evidently the series of exiles that marked the end of the kingdom of Israel, in the 720s BC. In addition to changing geographic focus, we have gone some way back before the events of Ezra-Nehemiah, which covered the range from 538-433 BC. Indeed, Chronicles had nothing to say about this context, excluding as it did the Israelite part of the story. We must go back to 2 Kings 17 to find the account of the end of Israel as a kingdom, subjugated by Assyria.
4) Shalmaneser V was the king of Assyria that ordered these events. We note that he died not long after, and that with his death Babylon was able to split itself away from Assyrian domination.
5) Tobit is from Thisbe, North of Galilee. This was also Elijah's home town. Note that difference in spelling - but Tishbe and Thisbe are thought to be the same place. The general geography of this story lies some way to the North of the geography that we have been working with recently - both exilic routes were broadly West-East.
6) Jeroboam's idol was very similar to Aaron's, no?
7) Tobit married a "member of our own family" - evidently cousin-marriage is still popular at this date in this place.
8) Media, the place Tobit trades with under Shalmaneser, will (has will already going to have...) become more important later as the place that generated Cyrus and his Persian empire that eventually overwhelmed Babylon in its growth as Babylon overwhelmed Assyria.
9) There is a missing Assyrian king here. Shalmaneser V (reigned 727-722 BC) was succeeded by his younger brother Sargon II (reigned 722-705 BC), before Sargon's son Sennacherib (who reigned 705-681 BC, and who was the subduer of Hezekiah of Judah in Kings and Chronicles) came to the throne. I think it makes most sense to assume (given Shalmaneser's death shortly after the exile) that Tobit's rise was more likely under Sargon.
10) The chronology seems strange also because Tobit's fall from grace under Sennacherib is explicitly placed right at the end of Sennacherib's reign - 681 BC. This seems too late - 4 decades after Tobit's exile from Naphtali. I think we have to assume that Tobit was a grown man before exile to have been tithing in Jerusalem annually, and so by the end of Sennacherib's reign he would have been at least 60, which doesn't feel right, with a youngish child. Perhaps Tobit's personal exile took place later than most? Perhaps the same error is made by the writer of this book as was made by the writer of Kings, where the assassination of Sennacherib is treated as having occurred straight after his siege of Hezekiah at Jerusalem, which in reality took place 20 years earlier. It is a bit of a problem for the story that these dates really don't tie up very well, given that the events narrated reference the Assyrian kings as closely as they do.
11) There's a lot of narrative material in this chapter!

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 26, 2016, 03:49AMIs this the same copy of the "Book of the Law" that the high priest Hilkiah turned up in the reign of Josiah, some 180 years earlier? It's been a busy couple of centuries.

Probably a copy of the copy

QuoteThe re-adoption of the Feast of Booths reminds us that Mosaic law was prior to the exile followed only loosely - and often not really followed at all, with Yahweh only one of a competing pantheon. It is also not clear when the early texts received their final forms.

Samuel, Kings and Chronicles tells us of the ebbs and flows of Israels faithfulness to God and his covenant with them.  But yes, I agree with you that there was less faithfulness than unfaithfulness.

QuoteI'm intrigued by the phrase "appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt". I don't remember that episode, amongst all the disgruntling going on the desert with Moses - who was it? Perhaps I'm forgetting things...

I thought that this referred them appointing Aaron at the time of the Golden Calf incident in Exodus

QuoteEzra is really nailing down the whole "See what happens if you don't obey the authority I represent" thing here, isn't he? I'm starting to feel that Ezra is in a very real sense the father of Judaism - a reasonable position to hold? I guess we'll find out from subsequent books how deeply his reforms took hold.
that sounds reasonable.  Wikipedia agrees. I wonder what the Jews today think?

QuoteAgain, Ezra has them pledging to remain ethnically pure. This really isn't an enlightened way to behave, and is bequeathing a whole world of difficulty to those that will follow.

they're just trying to make sure their culture survives and maintain diversity.  Isn't that enlightened?

QuoteBtw, a curious question that popped into my head the other day... Does your minister know about this thread; do you discuss points we raise with them?

Yeah he knows.  I hassle him every so often when there's something I can't work out.  We're not high on his list of priorities though.  He's more concerned with the local area than English and American trombonists.

QuoteQuite possibly nothing to do with this, but I note that there are more 'Books of Ezra' available than we see here

I didn't know.

Tobit.  New territory for me.

I'm interested to see if you think I show signs of bias against the books in the Apocrypha, so let me know.

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 26, 2016, 07:07AM1) We should in general be asking ourselves: Why is this book non-canonic? We haven't read much of it yet, but already an answer suggests itself to me - this is material dealing with Israel, not Judah; ultimately the Judaic tradition came out of Judah. We'll see if that intuition stacks up as we go on, I hope.

That would be a consideration.

I was also thinking that the narrative seems to be very self praising. "look at me, don't I do all the right things"  I know Nehemiah did a bit of this, but Tobit seems to be much more over the top.  Or is this me being biased?

Quote2) The Wikipedia entry on the Book of Tobit has some interesting information.

And I also wanted to see a protestant analysis.  This seemed fairly good.

Quote6) Jeroboam's idol was very similar to Aaron's, no?

Yes. I think we noted the similartity when we did Jeroboam in Kings.

Quote7) Tobit married a "member of our own family" - evidently cousin-marriage is still popular at this date in this place.

It seems strange that the writer who implicitly praises Tobit for being so zealous for the Law is writes that Tobits son marries his first cousin in defiance of the law and has an angel facilitate it.  This inconsistency would be a reason for me not voting to canonise the book. 
 
Quote8) Media, the place Tobit trades with under Shalmaneser, will (has will already going to have...) become more important later as the place that generated Cyrus and his Persian empire that eventually overwhelmed Babylon in its growth as Babylon overwhelmed Assyria.
9) There is a missing Assyrian king here. Shalmaneser V (reigned 727-722 BC) was succeeded by his younger brother Sargon II (reigned 722-705 BC), before Sargon's son Sennacherib (who reigned 705-681 BC, and who was the subduer of Hezekiah of Judah in Kings and Chronicles) came to the throne. I think it makes most sense to assume (given Shalmaneser's death shortly after the exile) that Tobit's rise was more likely under Sargon.
10) The chronology seems strange also because Tobit's fall from grace under Sennacherib is explicitly placed right at the end of Sennacherib's reign - 681 BC. This seems too late - 4 decades after Tobit's exile from Naphtali. I think we have to assume that Tobit was a grown man before exile to have been tithing in Jerusalem annually, and so by the end of Sennacherib's reign he would have been at least 60, which doesn't feel right, with a youngish child. Perhaps Tobit's personal exile took place later than most? Perhaps the same error is made by the writer of this book as was made by the writer of Kings, where the assassination of Sennacherib is treated as having occurred straight after his siege of Hezekiah at Jerusalem, which in reality took place 20 years earlier. It is a bit of a problem for the story that these dates really don't tie up very well, given that the events narrated reference the Assyrian kings as closely as they do.

The analysis I linked to claims that the author seems to have taken different sources from all over and weaved them together to create a story without too much regard for accuracy.  Do you think its any different to the other books we've read?

Tobit 2 text

Highlights

 - Tobit buries the dead and goes blind

Summary

 - Tobit comes home to his family during the reign of Esar-haddon.
 - He sits down to eat dinner at Pentecost, but decides to send his son Tobias out to find a poor person to share the meal with before he eats.
 - Tobias finds a body that had been murdered and left out in the open.
 - Tobit leaps up and brings the body home so that he can bury it.  Then he washes and eats his dinner.
 - That night Tobit buries the body and is ridculed by his neighbours.
 - Tobit decides to sleep outside against a wall.  Unfortunatley the sparrow'd droppings fell in his eyes and he went blind.
 - Tobit's wife, Anna goes out to work to earn money for the family.  One day her employers gave her a young goat for a mean in addition to her wages.
 - She took it home but Tobit got angry with her and told her to take it back becaise he thought it was stolen.  Then she replied to me, “Where are your acts of charity? Where are your righteous deeds? These things are known about you!”


Questions and Observations

 1) Does the story not seem to be a touch ridiculous.  Or do you think, "What's new?".
 2) It is thought that the author of Tobit was told this story against the local practice of not burying dead bodies.
 3) I'm not sure what that last verse means.  Is she expecting that he would still be charitable while he is blind, or that he should accept charity from others, or what?

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 26, 2016, 08:01PMI'm interested to see if you think I show signs of bias against the books in the Apocrypha, so let me know.
Will do! I see that your first impressions of it are a bit mixed. But then, so are mine - more below.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 26, 2016, 08:01PMI was also thinking that the narrative seems to be very self praising. "look at me, don't I do all the right things"  I know Nehemiah did a bit of this, but Tobit seems to be much more over the top.  Or is this me being biased?
The consensus seems to be that Tobit wasn't written by Tobit, despite the declaration of Tobit 1:3, which is regarded as a standard literary device. That it was written hundreds of years later to serve a purpose. More on that below too. I think this is probably the central idea that we'll find ourselves developing with it - what do you think? Nehemiah - maybe written by Nehemiah, or at least quoting him? Nehemiah seems much more rooted in historically verifiable events and with believable actions and motives than Tobit.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 26, 2016, 08:01PMAnd I also wanted to see a protestant analysis.  This seemed fairly good.
This is a nice link, thanks.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 26, 2016, 08:01PM
The analysis I linked to claims that the author seems to have taken different sources from all over and weaved them together to create a story without too much regard for accuracy.  Do you think its any different to the other books we've read?

On balance thus far, yes. We've been thus far reading a more-or-less continuous historical account, a grand sweep out of legend into fact, from the earliest days talked about to the then-present time. We'll return to more of this later, but now we've taken a diversion into a moral fable, I think. These so-called "Wisdom Books" - can we regard them uncontroversially as presenting idealised narratives that were understood to be fictional, but to also offer valuable insights?

While all these books, factual and fictional alike, will have passed through similar processes of editing and redaction, the aims of the editors and redactors matter a great deal when considering what it is we've been left with. A consistent stream of record-keepers passing historical accounts along will result in something quite different from someone using material to sell a particular point of view.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 26, 2016, 08:26PM 1) Does the story not seem to be a touch ridiculous.  Or do you think, "What's new?".
It is, I concur, not very believable. A lot of elements that aren't exactly non-realistic, but that taken together lend a general impression of at minimum a strong fictional veneer to events and at maximum a total fabrication. And, in answer to your second question, yes and no. Yes, a lot of what's gone before has been non-realistic - but not in recent books, which have pleasingly tended more to the historical than the mythological. This is a return to a level of suspension of disbelief that hasn't been necessary since Judges. As I've said before, the Bible is a history book to me - a very intriguing source document on how an ancient people thought and acted. This is feeling less like a narration of events and more like a story told to edify thus far, and reading ahead in summaries (e.g. the nice link you supplied) suggests that this is not going to change.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 26, 2016, 08:26PM 3) I'm not sure what that last verse means.  Is she expecting that he would still be charitable while he is blind, or that he should accept charity from others, or what?

I think she is telling him off. "Everyone knows you as this wonderful person! And now you're being an arse to your wife, who is working her fingers off supporting you in your need! Come on, less of the hypocrisy please..."

Btw - does a sparrow pooing in your eyes have this effect? I can't imagine it would do one's vision much good - bird poo is quite acidic, I think; see what it does to car paintwork if left.

Tobit 3 text

Highlights

 - Sarah is introduced, and her link with Tobit given

Summary

 - Tobit prays to Yahweh for forgiveness after his wife's rebuke
 - In Ecbatana, in Media, a woman called Sarah is in trouble; married 7 times, each husband has died before consummating the marriage with her, slain by the demon Asmodeus. Suspicion is starting to fall on Sarah for the deaths.
 - Sarah contemplates suicide, but decides not to, to spare her father's honour
 - Sarah prays to Yahweh to either kill her or, failing that, just listen sympathetically
 - Both prayers reach Yahweh together, and he proposes a joint solution, sending the angel Raphael to implement it:
    - Remove the film from Tobit's eyes
    - Get rid of Asmodeus from the situation
    - Marry Sarah to Tobias

Questions and Observations

1) Pretty over the top, Tobit's prayer, no? His wife gets cross with him for him doubting her, and his response: "For it is better for me to die
    than to see so much distress in my life
    and to listen to insults."
In fact, this doesn't strike me as a very penitent prayer at all. More of a stroppy sulk in a fashion familiar to anyone who's ever been a teenager. Can't imagine a sensible Yahweh liking it very much. But he does.
2) Ecbatana is a new bit of geography for us. In modern terms, it's in central Western Iran, some 430 miles ESE of Nineveh.
3) Funny how there are only so many combinations of letters in the alphabet... First "Media", and then later on, we have "Rages"...
4) With Sarah's episode, we are starting to heavily reference non-realistic things. Leaving aside for a moment the demon Asmodeus, she's been married in succession extremely briefly to 7 husbands, each of whom has died. Does this strike us as a realistic narrative? Would not those around her have been extremely curious to understand what was going on several husbands ago?
5) Then Asmodeus (there's a particularly striking picture of him at that link). This idea of opposing god-type beings within the Yahweh paradigm is one that later Christianity is throughly familiar with, but we've seen almost nothing of it thus far, despite the historical narrative making plenty of mention of various gods. The notion that there are evil spirits ultimately subordinate to Yahweh is I think quite a late one in the development of these religions? And also suggests a composition date for Tobit of a lot later than the setting of the narrative.
6) Raphael falls into the same category of beings, though on the positive rather than the negative side of the balance. We've seen "The Angel of the Lord" as an agent of action previously (though not for a long time - centuries), but we haven't had a name.
7) The writer wasn't afraid of spoilers!
8) I note from Martin's link that both Tobit and Tobias appear to be the same name as Tobiah, seen in the (as far as I can tell completely unconnected) Book of Nehemiah in the hands of an Ammonite, centuries later than the setting (but centuries earlier than the apparent writing) and hundreds of miles away.
9) Going back to the chronological issues, I see also from Martin's link that they're more severe even than I'd listed - 2 Kings 15 tells us that the expulsion of Naphtali took place years before the final expulsion of Israel, under the previous Assyrian monarch Tiglath-Pileser, Shalmaneser's predecessor, who reigned 745-727 BC. The King of Israel at that time, we are told, was Pekah, who reigned 740-732 BC. So to fit the available description (or at least those parts of it that aren't manifestly in conflict with other parts of it and known facts), Tobit cannot have been born later than about 750 BC, putting him in his 70s at this time. Reading ahead, I know that Tobit is said to be some incredible age when he dies, but that isn't an observation that is helping me read this book as a piece of realism...
10) The obsession with approving of burying bodies suggests some kind of hobby-horse on the part of the author. The internet talks about this being a characteristic of the Seleucid period (not that many years BC), when Tobit is suspected to have been written.

Postscript: I was Googling around looking for info on how factually the content of Tobit is regarded by Catholicism. I found this page, which includes the following line: Indeed, the author of Tobit goes out of his way to make clear that his hero is fictional. He makes Tobit the uncle of Ahiqar, a figure in ancient Semitic folklore like "Jack the Giant Killer" or "Aladdin". I think it's becoming very clear that we must treat this as a morality fable rather than as an account. Do you agree? I don't think that it's the only OT book that benefits from being read so - for example Job, and I wonder about the other books coming up. Perhaps Ruth too? Certainly, this book must present very strong challenges to anyone who claims to read it as inerrant. But, given that it isn't in the Protestant canon, perhaps there are no such people?

Tobit 4 text

Highlights

 - Tobit advises Tobias

Summary

 - Tobit recalls the large sum of money he left in trust with Gabael in Media, and thinks that he ought to tell his son Tobias before Yahweh answers his prayer by striking him dead
 - He advises Tobias in general terms: follow the religious laws, help the poor, marry into the tribe, pay wages promptly, avoid drunkenness, choose advisers carefully and widely
 - He tells Tobias about the money in Media, and tells him to be brave and retrieve it, to alleviate their poverty

Questions and Observations

1) Come on Tobit, enough of the drama queen act...
2) But his advice to Tobias contains some universally good stuff along with some less important stuff

Tobit 5 text

Highlights

 - Tobias arranges to travel to Media, escorted by Raphael

Summary

 - Tobias asks how Gabael will recognise him as he claims this large sum of money
 - Tobit replies that he has a matching half an item that Gabael will match to prove identity
 - Tobias looks for a guide to Media, and happens upon Raphael, in human form
 - Raphael is going to Media, to see his kinsman Gabael, who lives in Rages, 2 days mountainous journey from Ecbatana
 - Tobias reports the good news to Tobit, who asks to be introduced to Raphael
 - Raphael tells Tobit his sight will be healed
 - Tobit quizzes Raphael about his ancestry, and Raphael makes up a story of being a relation of Tobit's, using the name Azariah
 - Tobit is gratified, and offers Raphael a wage to escort Tobias
 - Tobit's wife Anna is sad and rebukes Tobit for sending Tobias away on this dangerous errand
 - He counsels good heart, and says that "a good angel will accompany him"

Questions and Observations

1) Note Raphael is "an angel of God", not "the angel of the Lord".
2) Was Tobias not a little suspicious that he found someone looking for exactly the same person as he was in a foreign country? I suppose Yahweh could render him non-suspicious for the purpose...
3) Rages is nowadays a suburb of Tehran.
4) It is rather more than two days journey from Ecbatana - 68 hours on foot according to Google maps - about 200 miles. The total trip from Nineveh to Rages by way of Ecbatana is some 650 miles - quite a hike...
5) Tobit uses an oddly apposite phrase to describe Raphael...

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 27, 2016, 02:04PM
1) Note Raphael is "an angel of God", not "the angel of the Lord".

I'm not expecting a great deal of accuracy in Tobit, but "the angel of the Lord" is normally used for a physical appearance of The Lord as opposed to an everyday angel, which Raphael was. So he agrees with the rest of the bible in this case.

But I've probably just upset millions of our Jewish, Catholic and Orthodox readers because they recognise Raphael as an archangel and not just an everyday angel.  Oops.  Raphael is an angel of healing apparently.  And also a saint.

Its interesting that angels in the "real" bible are scary creatures who get to deal out judgements and punish people.  When they don't want to be scary, they have to spend their time reassuring people not to be afraid of them.  I don't think the bible portrays them as guardians.  I'll have to see.

Tobit 6 text

Highlights

 - Tobias and Raphael travel to Ecbatana, stopping with Raguel
 - Tobias is to marry Sarah

Summary

 - Anna is comforted by Tobit's words
 - Tobias and Raphael (and a dog) set out to Media, breaking for the first night on the banks of the Tigris, where they catch a fish, which provides good eating and, handily, material to banish a demon and remove sparrow-poo films from the eyes
 - When they reach Ecbatana, Raphael says that they must stay with Sarah's father Raguel, Tobias's kinsman, and that Tobias has a pre-eminent claim on marrying his daughter Sarah
 - Tobias has heard about the seven dead husbands, and is not keen to become the eighth
 - Raphael gives Tobias instructions on how to use the fish parts to defeat Asmodeus, and Tobias warms to the idea

Questions and Observations

1) Odd layout to have the first verse in this chapter rather than the last.
2) What a useful fish.
3) They set out from Nineveh (modern-day Mosul in Iraq), heading east to Rages (modern-day Tehran in Iran). The Tigris lies a little way to the West of Nineveh, running North-South - so no need to cross it. But perhaps they followed a less direct route along the river for reasons of water access etc - this is suggested by their camping by it on the first night. This is a dry land, after all. Here's a map of the local watercourses. One could imagine a river-following route that traced the Tigris downstream from Nineveh/Mosul as far as Baghdad (not a settlement for another 1500 years), then up the Diyala/Sirwan to its source near Ecbatana/Hamedan, then picking up what I think is called the Ghare-Chai river (online information is rather lacking on the minor rivers of Iran...), which joins the Qom (apparently the most water-stressed river in the world due to irrigation practices). Following that to the Namak Salt Lake, then up the Karaj/Jajrood system to Rages/Tehran would be quite a plausible safe route to take, I think. The estimable Walk-Jog-Run website supplies a method of plotting this route - my attempt at it here. Even following the rivers it would have been a perilous journey through the mountains that overlay the modern Iraq-Iran border - just look at the plotted route elevation on the left for a hint.
4) Some have cited this camping by the Tigris as evidence of a geographical error in Tobit, but actually I'm happy with it, using the above logic. Compare with Abraham's route from Ur all the way up the Euphrates to modern Turkey, then down the coast to Canaan, an enormous dog-leg, albeit one performed over years.
5) Is this the first time we've had a pet mentioned? I wasn't sure how Judaism relates to household animals, but I read that they're approved of, in contrast to many adherents of Islam, who can be found really hating dogs.
6) Sarah doesn't seem to get a lot of say in who she will marry...

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 28, 2016, 03:52AM
1) Odd layout to have the first verse in this chapter rather than the last.

Originally the texts had no chapters and verses.  These were added to the text later.  see eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible.  There are lots of divisions that aren't helpful to understand the text, eg where they break up a sentence.

Incidentally, Hebrew and Greek at the time the bible was written didn't even have punctuation, and sometimes its tricky trying to work out sentence structure too.

The verse division we use mostly in our English bibles were devised by a 16th C French translator named Robert Estienne who did it while travelling.  I think he just added verse divisions to existing chapter divisions, so I don't really know if he is responsible for this verse appearing in what would seem to be the wrong chapter, but the story is more important than the facts isn't it.  The story is that Estienne was riding along on his horse marking breaks in the text, and every so often his horse bumped him and he missed and put the mark in the wrong spot.  Ooops.  But once they were done, they were deemed to be inspired and unchangeable. 

Quote5) Is this the first time we've had a pet mentioned? I wasn't sure how Judaism relates to household animals, but I read that they're approved of, in contrast to many adherents of Islam, who can be found really hating dogs.

The inclusion of the dog is intriguing. 
- He plays no part in the plot: he's just there, tagging along, uncommented on: who knows why?
- was he actually a pet? 
     - he just follows Tobias without acknowledgement
     - Animals in the bible are generally resources or nuisances (they eat you or cause diseases).
     - dogs are often referred to in the bible in a negative light and are just scavengers or dangerous
- he doesn't even help out with the fish

There is very little analysis of him on the net, I guess because there is nothing said about him. 

Tobit 7 text

Highlights

 - Tobias meets and contracts to marry Sarah

Summary

 - Tobias and Raphael arrive in Ecbatana, and go to Raguel's house
 - Raguel and his wife Edna recognise Tobit in him, and the welcome is warm
 - Tobias asks for Sarah in marriage; Raguel is keen, but points out what happened to his seven predecessors
 - Tobias insists, and Raguel suppresses any objections
 - Edna prepares the marriage bed

Questions and Observations

1) "Hello, I'm a cousin you've never met! Give me your daughter to marry!"
2) They welcome Tobias as though he had great meaning to them, but are also willing to let him risk his life without really checking out why he's willing to do so.

Tobit 8 text

Highlights

 - Tobias and Sarah marry and the demon Asmodeus is defeated

Summary

 - After the evening meal, they retire
 - Tobias puts the fish's liver and heart on the incense burner, as instructed by Raphael
 - The smell so offends Asmodeus's nostrils that he runs all the way to Egypt, where Raphael follows him, and ties him up
 - Tobias and Sarah pray for their safety, then go to sleep
 - Raguel isn't totally confident either - he has the servants dig a grave in the darkness in case Tobias is dead, so that no-one need see the potentially dead Tobias
 - But the maid checks in, and he's fine, so they fill the grave back in
 - Raguel is happy and decrees 14 days of feasting and celebration of the marriage

Questions and Observations

1) A smell bad enough to make a demon jump a thousand miles and more must be quite some stink. But Sarah doesn't even flinch when she comes to share her marriage bed with this man she's only just met in the room where it is being produced. Maybe her nose is defunct. Maybe she inherited it from both her parents, hence their not noticing either. Maybe it was a general thing in the population of Ecbatana, hence no-one knocking on the door in curiosity from the houses around, or jumping a thousand miles with their nasal membranes melting...
2) Why couldn't Raphael have incapacitated Asmodeus in Ecbatana?
3) Evidently Tobias didn't trust Raphael's advice wholly, if he thinks that praying is necessary. Which makes it odd that he's just staked his life on it.
4) Prayers, then going to sleep. That's what traditionally happens on a marriage night, especially when one partner is at risk of imminently shuffling off the mortal coil... It isn't even as if they've had a big party to celebrate it to tire them out - which in itself is strange, no? The wedding feast is after they've shared the night together. But perhaps a sensible precaution not to announce it till they're certain it'll take, given Sarah's marriage history.
5) It's never really been laid out why Asmodeus was persecuting Sarah in this way...

Tobit 9 text
Tobit 10 text

Highlights

 - Tobit's money is reclaimed from Gabael
 - Tobias and Sarah set out for Nineveh after the wedding feasting

Summary

Ch. 9
 - Tobias commissions Raphael to take the split bond and to travel to Rages to use it to recover Tobit's money from Gabael
 - Raphael does this, it all goes smoothly, and he invites Gabael to the wedding, which he attends
Ch. 10
 - Tobit and Anna worry about how long it is taking Tobias to return with the money
 - Tobias knows that they will be worrying and asks Raguel permission to return home when the fortnight of feasting is up
 - Raguel offers to send a messenger instead, but Tobias insists
 - Raguel gives Tobias and Sarah half his possessions, the rest to follow in inheritance
 - With many tears and blessings, they set out from Raguel and Edna back to Tobit and Anna

Questions and Observations

1) Anna is more dramatic than Tobit this time.
2) This is the second time that Raguel's given in to Tobias on a point of disagreement.

I'm just going with the flow on this, I can't see much point in critiquing the details

Tobit 11 text
Tobit 12 text

Highlights

 - Tobias returns. His father is healed.
 - Raphael reveals his identity, explains what was really going on and leaves
 - Everyone is happy

Summary

Chapter 11
 - When the get close to Nineheh, Raphael suggest that he and run ahead of the party to get the house ready.
 - The dog comes too.
 - Tobias is melodramatically welcomed by his mum and dad.
 - The fish gall is applied to Tobits eyes and the film is peeled off.  He is cured. He can see. He rejoices.
 - Tobit goes out goes out to meet and welcome his new daughter in law.
 - They party for a week.

Chapter 12
 - Tobit tells Tobias to pay Raphael his wages and to give him a bonus.  They decide that this should be 1/2 of the silver they had brought back.
 - Raphael homilizes on doing good.  (I thought I made that word up, but no)
 - Raphael reveals that he is an angel and that he has been testing Tobit and Sarah on behalf of God. He has to tell them not to be afraid of him.
 - Raphael tells them all to continue to bless and praise God.
 - Raphael ascends into heaven and tells them to write down what happened.
 - They kept blessing and praising God.

Questions and Observations

1) Was the dog's name Toby?
2) See, I told you that angels were scary.
3) The last paragraph has parallels to Revelation.

Quote from: drizabone on Sep 29, 2016, 05:10PMI'm just going with the flow on this, I can't see much point in critiquing the details

We've treated equally non-realistic episodes with great seriousness earlier in the thread - e.g. Moses and the Pharaoh, The Flood (and indeed pretty much all of Genesis), Miracles of Elijah and Elisha.

For me, this thread is in large part about building my understanding of a belief system that isn't mine, but which bears heavily on the world around me. These books that are Catholic but not Protestant are a sub-part of the same building process for me - but I guess for you it's a much more separate process?

I'm not sure how the other Apocrypha books proceed after Tobit - it's my impression that at least some of them are historical narratives in the mould of e.g. Ezra-Nehemiah, which I hope you'll find more satisfying to work through.

The comparison in my mind with Tobit is Job, another morality fable, one with similar non-realistic elements, but which is inside the Protestant canon. How do you feel about Job?

I've wondered if my response to Tobit would be the same as yours to the 'real' bible. Somehow it just seems to me more cludgy than what we've covered so far.  I mean the story hasn't been put together as well, there are inconsistencies ...  Let me know how it compares when we get to a similar book in the normal bible, or however you want to describe the non-apocrypha.

Actually, I like Job.  It will be interesting how I see it in comparison to the apocrypha.

Tobit 13 text
Tobit 14 text

Highlights

 - And they all lived happily ever after

Summary

Ch. 13
 - Tobit pronounces a prayer of glorification of Yahweh
Ch. 14
 - Tobit lives to 112, and is buried in Nineveh with high honour
 - He advises Tobias to heed the prophecy of Nahum and move from Nineveh to Media
 - He foretells the fall of Assyria, Judah, and Babylon
 - He foretells the return of the Judahites and the rebuilding of the temple at Jerusalem
 - He goes further even than anything we've yet heard, and foretells that all the nations of the world will worship Yahweh
 - He urges Tobias and Sarah to leave immediately after Anna dies, citing the bad treatment of Ahikar
 - When Anna dies, Tobias and Sarah move to Ecbatana to live with Raguel and Edna.
 - Tobias lives to 117, living beyond the fall of Nineveh to Media

Questions and Observations

1) We'll come to the prophecy of Nahum later. A modest three-chapter book, it prophecies that Nineveh will be destroyed. [IT is unclear[/url] whether Nahum was writing before or after Nineveh did actually fall. But it is clear that he was writing after the years that Tobit is set in.
2) Tobit's advice to Tobias on how to position himself geographically is sound - Media will rise, under Cyrus, and swamp Babylon, the conquerors of Assyria; meanwhile Judah will fall to Babylon also, in calamitous fashion. Media is going to be a secure place to live for a good three centuries to come. He's very prescient about what is to come - it's almost as if a writer hundreds of years after the facts is putting the words into his mouth...
3) But it does push his descendants further from the place they came from - moving East rather than West.
4) The prophecy about other nations is prescient, and unexpected. There's been no interest shown yet in spreading the worship of Yahweh - but then I suppose we haven't learned what conditions became by the time Tobit was written. It must have been become some kind of priority for Christianity to have spread the way it did, and Tobit was written not that many years BC, apparently.
5) Ahikar was mentioned a couple of times earlier in this book, as a deus-ex-machina for Tobit's Assyrian rehabilitation. In what we saw described as a clear hint that Tobit is fictional, he is a figure of Assyrian legend.
6) These longevities... Reminiscent of the patriarch stories. But there's been no suggestion in the canon that people had extended lifespans in the era in which Tobit is set (8th-7th century BC).
7) Chronological points overall:
 - Naphtali was deported to Assyria in ~732 BC, and Tobit was doing adult things before then - so 760-750 BC seems a reasonable range of dates for his birth based on that information.
 - Tobit was 62 when he lost his sight, which we are told was in the reign of Esar-haddon (681-669 BC), which information puts his birth in the range 743-731 BC, in contradiction to the point about Naphtali. It could just about work if he was not deported with Naphtali, but in one of the later Israelite exiles, which continued until 722 BC.
 - The destruction of Nineveh referenced took place in 612 BC, when the Medes under Cyaxares besieged and then sacked the place. It's interesting to note that the rebellious Babylonians were on the side of the Medes at that point - the conquering of Babylonia by the Medes under Cyrus was not until 539 BC. If Tobias lived to see this event, then he cannot have been born earlier than 729 BC.
But really, I don't think exact historical realism was quite what the author was aiming at.
8) We've been talking quite freely about the "Apocrypha", but I note from Googling that Catholics may consider this term "mildly pejorative", and the term "Deuterocanon" is suggested instead. Probably easiest just to carry on talking as we already are and apologise as and when we need to...

Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis

• [li]Big picture stuff
  • [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
  [/li][li]Abraham; extensive travels, original covenant, Lot, not sacrificing Isaac[/li][li]Jacob; conflict with twin Esau, banishment, wives, 12 sons[/li][li]Joseph; betrayal to Egypt, rise, saving of family, supposed origins of 12 tribes[/li]

Exodus

• [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]

Leviticus

• [li]...many laws are given[/li]

Numbers

• [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 16, 2016, 04:49AMPart II - The Deuteronomistic History
Deuteronomy

• [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]

Joshua

• [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]

Judges

• [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]

Ruth

• [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]

1 Samuel

• [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]

2 Samuel

• [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]

1 Kings

• [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]

2 Kings

• [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
  [/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]

Quote from: MoominDave on Sep 20, 2016, 06:33AMPart III - The Chronicler's History
1 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning[/li][li]Return of some exiles to Judah
  [/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly
  • [li]David secures the AotC[/li][li]David breeds[/li][li]David defeats enemies[/li][li]David arranges for Solomon to build the temple[/li]
  [/li]

2 Chronicles

• [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh
  • [li]Solomon builds the temple and is great[/li][li]Kingdom splits[/li][li]Long succession of kings, some good, some bad[/li][li]Judah squashed between Babylon and Egypt, falls to Babylon; population deported to exile[/li]
  [/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]

Ezra

• [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple[/li][li]Decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]

Nehemiah

• [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall[/li][li]He and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]

In summarising Tobit, we have a different consideration to those that we've had before. Previously, we have treated what we have read as an attempt at presenting a history, no matter how physically unlikely the events portrayed might be, but this book is qualitatively different. There is no pretence that it is anything but a fictional tale - official Catholic outlets tell us this explicitly. So what is it doing in the Bible? It is a tale of moral instruction - as with the parables of Jesus later on, it wraps real theological concerns up in an idealised narrative set in a known context. Readers are intended to extract the message that adhering to the theological ideals of the time of writing that Tobit embodies (unshakable devoutness, tithing, burying of the dead, hospitality, marrying within the clan, etc.) will see everything turn out okay in the end - in this sense, it becomes unclear that the book is properly placed in this historical section of the Bible; perhaps the Wisdom section would be a more natural home for it, along with the similar Job. One could also argue that the earlier Book of Ruth belongs in a similar category.

I'll put Apocrypha summaries in green text, to make them easily distinguishable to the eye in the overall list.

Tobit Catholic/Orthodox

• [li]Tobit and his son Tobias are exiled in Nineveh when Israel falls[/li][li]Sarah lives in Media; a demon has killed seven of her husbands[/li][li]With an angel's help, Tobias rescues her, and everyone lives happily ever after[/li]

Judith 1 text

Highlights

 - Setting the scene: Great empires clash; Nebuchadnezzar defeats the Medes

Summary

 - Arphaxad, king of the Medes in Ecbatana, has mighty city fortifications
 - Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylonia (see note below), raises a mighty combined army in the plain of Ragau to attack Arphaxad
 - Nebuchadnezzar sends a summons to the inhabitants of Syria, Judah, and around, but they do not come. This makes him angry, and he swears vengeance on the region.
 - After 5 years, Nebuchadnezzar defeats Arphaxad and sacks Ecbatana
 - He returns to Nineveh (see note below)

Questions and Observations

1) Our second deuterocanonical book, Judith.
2) The 12th year of King Nebuchadnezzar - reigned over Babylonia c.605-c.562 BC. We are in the mid-590s BC here by this information. Skipping forward most of a century from the setting of Tobit, during the era in which the Judaean exiles occurred.
3) But there is an immediate jarring error here - Nebuchadnezzar was king of Babylonia, not Assyria. We can perhaps resolve this by noting that Babylonia encompassed Assyria at this time, but it's still an odd way to refer to him, not consistent with other biblical usage. But then he returns to Nineveh, not Babylon - evidently the confusion between Assyria and Babylonia goes deeper.
4) Interesting that "Arphaxad" is a name we've seen before, much earlier in the narrative - a son of Shem. It didn't look a very Jewish name then, I thought...
5) But if this is the name of a Median king, it's been mangled by Hebrew tongues (or Greek - it apparently isn't clear which of the two languages the book was originally written in). There never was a king of the Medes called by this name. The ruler in the 590s BC was Cyaxares, who was referenced at the end of Tobit. Cyaxares was the great-grandfather of Cyrus the Great, the ruler who sent the Judahites home. Cyaxares ruled 625-585 BC, so covers the time referenced via Nebuchadnezzar. Wikipedia tells us that the transliteration from Old Persian of his name is "Uvaxštra", which is not a million miles from "Arphaxad"... I think I will assume that Arphaxad is Cyaxares unless we learn otherwise.
6) Ragau is the flat land between Ecbatana (modern Hamedan) and Rages (modern Tehran), in NW Iran.
7) Cyaxares destroyed Nineveh in 612 BC, and the Babylonians allied themselves with him at that point. I can find no record of Nebuchadnezzar returning the favour in Median territory later - we know about various of Nebuchadnezzar's military campaigns, and various campaigns of Cyaxares, but I cannot find anything to match this, which by the dating of the story would have taken place in 588 BC or so.

Judith 2 text

Highlights

 - Nebuchadnezzar's general Holofernes undertakes a campaign of revenge against those that failed to answer the summons

Summary

 - In Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, he considers how to exact his revenge on the region that includes Judaea for failing to answer his summons for military effort
 - It is resolved that any who were summoned but disobeyed will be "destroyed"
 - Nebuchadnezzar orders his chief general Holofernes to undertake a savage campaign in "the land to the west"
 - Holofernes ravages Upper Cilicia, and other places rather hard to identify. He ends up near Damascus.

Questions and Observations

1) 18th regnal year ~= 587 BC.
2) The Book of Judith is the only place where Holofernes is recorded. Also - apparently "Olophernes" is the earliest text we have.
3) 120,000 foot soldiers and 12,000 archers - a large army indeed.
4) "Bectileth" means "House of Slaughter" - evidently an example of a description rather than a name.
5) Cilicia was the region along the Southern coast of modern Turkey. Quite a bit more than three days travel from Nineveh.