Any chance of a scriptural reference?
Religion Matters: Take 3
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ttf_MoominDave
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ttf_ronkny
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ttf_MoominDave
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To a justification for considering Holy Ghost and standard-issue woo-woo ghosts as different things.
To amplify - if my friend came to you and said the above, seeking to understand your viewpoint, what specific bits of text would you point her at to inform her about it?
To amplify - if my friend came to you and said the above, seeking to understand your viewpoint, what specific bits of text would you point her at to inform her about it?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: Baron von Bone on Nov 03, 2015, 08:52AM
Quite arguably a more serious version of a very similar and related problem.
These arbitration and mediation clauses' unmitigated days are numbered, I think. There was a recent article in the NY Times, I think, about them being slipped into many credit card providers' contracts and the utterly depraved and predatory nonsense that tends to result.
Blimey, that's nuts. Amazed that kind of thing is legal, even in the religion-keen US.
Quite arguably a more serious version of a very similar and related problem.
These arbitration and mediation clauses' unmitigated days are numbered, I think. There was a recent article in the NY Times, I think, about them being slipped into many credit card providers' contracts and the utterly depraved and predatory nonsense that tends to result.
Blimey, that's nuts. Amazed that kind of thing is legal, even in the religion-keen US.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 03, 2015, 10:15AMBlimey, that's nuts. Amazed that kind of thing is legal, even in the religion-keen US.
It's just part of deregulation, but it's kind of surprising that it's actually become legal to by-pass the law. There's just something fundamentally too obviously problematic about that, but it's still actually happened and, as I understand it, it's become common enough that most of us in the US probably have at least a credit card or two with one of these clauses. But yeah, the religious manifestation of the problem is just a side-effect of deregulation. I expect some of the loudest protesters against the "threat" of sharia law becoming legal in the US would also be the most obliviously fierce defenders of the religious applications of these arbitration and mediation clauses ... at least those that fall in line with their own beliefs.
Another note from the article:QuoteThe Lord spoke to me when I was 59 and said, I want you to give up your law practice and do peacemaking, said Mr. Thomas. I said, Lord, how about when I am 65? And he said, No, Bryce, I need you now.
If we were to believe some claims in here this kind of presumed dialog with God (and presumed validation/justification from God) would be rare, but I think it's pretty clear that it's not at all unusual even, based upon simply reviewing religiously oriented interviews with influential believers like this alone, amongst all other sorts of ubiquitous cultural evidence to the contrary.
And if there's any doubt about the sincerity of the alleged pious motivation for such clauses (at least in most cases I would happily bet if it could somehow be reliably tested):QuoteThe school had required Ms. Prescott to agree to Christian arbitration as a condition of her hiring. But when Northlake lost, it appealed the arbitration award in federal court, arguing that Mr. Thomass ruling was inconsistent with Louisiana law.
It's just part of deregulation, but it's kind of surprising that it's actually become legal to by-pass the law. There's just something fundamentally too obviously problematic about that, but it's still actually happened and, as I understand it, it's become common enough that most of us in the US probably have at least a credit card or two with one of these clauses. But yeah, the religious manifestation of the problem is just a side-effect of deregulation. I expect some of the loudest protesters against the "threat" of sharia law becoming legal in the US would also be the most obliviously fierce defenders of the religious applications of these arbitration and mediation clauses ... at least those that fall in line with their own beliefs.
Another note from the article:QuoteThe Lord spoke to me when I was 59 and said, I want you to give up your law practice and do peacemaking, said Mr. Thomas. I said, Lord, how about when I am 65? And he said, No, Bryce, I need you now.
If we were to believe some claims in here this kind of presumed dialog with God (and presumed validation/justification from God) would be rare, but I think it's pretty clear that it's not at all unusual even, based upon simply reviewing religiously oriented interviews with influential believers like this alone, amongst all other sorts of ubiquitous cultural evidence to the contrary.
And if there's any doubt about the sincerity of the alleged pious motivation for such clauses (at least in most cases I would happily bet if it could somehow be reliably tested):QuoteThe school had required Ms. Prescott to agree to Christian arbitration as a condition of her hiring. But when Northlake lost, it appealed the arbitration award in federal court, arguing that Mr. Thomass ruling was inconsistent with Louisiana law.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 03, 2015, 08:44AMYes, this is the kind of thing I'm after. So there are significant variations between individual denominations regarding how permissible it is for adherents to think things like this then? That seems a helpful way of thinking about it.
I think so. I'm not sure how pervasive this is.
It's also a cultural thing. I would be willing to bet that the person who had the conversation about ghosts is also anti-vax and pro-homeschool. She shares this attitude with others in her church, but it is probably more culture intruding into religion than anything driven by the religion. My guess, anyway.
I think so. I'm not sure how pervasive this is.
It's also a cultural thing. I would be willing to bet that the person who had the conversation about ghosts is also anti-vax and pro-homeschool. She shares this attitude with others in her church, but it is probably more culture intruding into religion than anything driven by the religion. My guess, anyway.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 03, 2015, 11:37AMI think so. I'm not sure how pervasive this is.
It's also a cultural thing. I would be willing to bet that the person who had the conversation about ghosts is also anti-vax and pro-homeschool. She shares this attitude with others in her church, but it is probably more culture intruding into religion than anything driven by the religion. My guess, anyway.
Good guesses ... except that she's a Brit (I presume).
Eh?
But the basic idea behind those predictions is sound--just aimed at the wrong culture.
It's also a cultural thing. I would be willing to bet that the person who had the conversation about ghosts is also anti-vax and pro-homeschool. She shares this attitude with others in her church, but it is probably more culture intruding into religion than anything driven by the religion. My guess, anyway.
Good guesses ... except that she's a Brit (I presume).
Eh?
But the basic idea behind those predictions is sound--just aimed at the wrong culture.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: Baron von Bone on Nov 03, 2015, 12:06PM
Good guesses ... except that she's a Brit (I presume).
No way she's Anglican/Church of England, then.
(time to watch some Vicar of Dibbley reruns)
Good guesses ... except that she's a Brit (I presume).
No way she's Anglican/Church of England, then.
(time to watch some Vicar of Dibbley reruns)
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ttf_ronkny
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 03, 2015, 10:03AMTo a justification for considering Holy Ghost and standard-issue woo-woo ghosts as different things.
To amplify - if my friend came to you and said the above, seeking to understand your viewpoint, what specific bits of text would you point her at to inform her about it?
I read your PM and I think she's confused.
Anyway, the translation from the Greek is really immaterial being not ghost as we interpret it. And as a Catholic the "Holy Ghost" (dumbed down to spirit since Vatican II) is the presence of God within us not that there is a holy ghost flying around out there somewhere.
Lots of interpretations of the bible are in the Catechism. I have read the Cathechism of the council of Trent. There's also the Baltimore and the new age ones since Vatican II.
To amplify - if my friend came to you and said the above, seeking to understand your viewpoint, what specific bits of text would you point her at to inform her about it?
I read your PM and I think she's confused.
Anyway, the translation from the Greek is really immaterial being not ghost as we interpret it. And as a Catholic the "Holy Ghost" (dumbed down to spirit since Vatican II) is the presence of God within us not that there is a holy ghost flying around out there somewhere.
Lots of interpretations of the bible are in the Catechism. I have read the Cathechism of the council of Trent. There's also the Baltimore and the new age ones since Vatican II.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 03, 2015, 12:11PMNo way she's Anglican/Church of England, then.
(time to watch some Vicar of Dibbley reruns)
Well, I don't really want to discuss my friend in this fashion - she is my friend after all! But having checked where she worships, it does seem to be an Anglican church, though one very keen on rock'n'roll-driven worship type stuff (I don't know the correct words, there's probably a better way of describing that). And she is neither a home-schooler nor anti-vaccinating - which as Byron correctly points out, are more US than UK phenomena, though they do exist here.
Not really here to discuss her though, and I won't clarify any more personal points regarding her. I'm simply interested to know how the more established franchises (that I was quite sure frown on the kind of conflation she made) would counter the specific suggestion that she made.
So where do the various Christian branches stand on woo-woo scary ghosts? A thing or not a thing?
(time to watch some Vicar of Dibbley reruns)
Well, I don't really want to discuss my friend in this fashion - she is my friend after all! But having checked where she worships, it does seem to be an Anglican church, though one very keen on rock'n'roll-driven worship type stuff (I don't know the correct words, there's probably a better way of describing that). And she is neither a home-schooler nor anti-vaccinating - which as Byron correctly points out, are more US than UK phenomena, though they do exist here.
Not really here to discuss her though, and I won't clarify any more personal points regarding her. I'm simply interested to know how the more established franchises (that I was quite sure frown on the kind of conflation she made) would counter the specific suggestion that she made.
So where do the various Christian branches stand on woo-woo scary ghosts? A thing or not a thing?
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ttf_ronkny
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 04, 2015, 05:56AMSo where do the various Christian branches stand on woo-woo scary ghosts? A thing or not a thing?
I would have thought that woo-woo scary ghosts were more of a pagan thing than christian. The bible says that people have spirits, but that they "go to be with God" at death. Nothing is mentioned that I can think of, about disembodied spirits, aka woo-woo scary ghosts. So I would expect that there wouldn't be much official support for them.
But:
- the bible talks about demon possession, which may fit your criteria
- I've heard that the RC church still has a few exorcists on the payroll
- there's the bible story of the "Witch of Endor" talking to the dead in Samuel.
- I think there are proscriptions about dealing with spirits in the Law.
I would have thought that woo-woo scary ghosts were more of a pagan thing than christian. The bible says that people have spirits, but that they "go to be with God" at death. Nothing is mentioned that I can think of, about disembodied spirits, aka woo-woo scary ghosts. So I would expect that there wouldn't be much official support for them.
But:
- the bible talks about demon possession, which may fit your criteria
- I've heard that the RC church still has a few exorcists on the payroll
- there's the bible story of the "Witch of Endor" talking to the dead in Samuel.
- I think there are proscriptions about dealing with spirits in the Law.
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ttf_ronkny
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 04, 2015, 12:16PMI would have thought that woo-woo scary ghosts were more of a pagan thing than christian. The bible says that people have spirits, but that they "go to be with God" at death. Nothing is mentioned that I can think of, about disembodied spirits, aka woo-woo scary ghosts. So I would expect that there wouldn't be much official support for them.
But:
- the bible talks about demon possession, which may fit your criteria
- I've heard that the RC church still has a few exorcists on the payroll
- there's the bible story of the "Witch of Endor" talking to the dead in Samuel.
- I think there are proscriptions about dealing with spirits in the Law.
No "ghosts" for RC's Exorcism still around.
But:
- the bible talks about demon possession, which may fit your criteria
- I've heard that the RC church still has a few exorcists on the payroll
- there's the bible story of the "Witch of Endor" talking to the dead in Samuel.
- I think there are proscriptions about dealing with spirits in the Law.
No "ghosts" for RC's Exorcism still around.
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ttf_bhcordova
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I believe that each diocese is required to have at least one priest designated as an exorcist.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 04, 2015, 05:56AM... rock'n'roll-driven worship type stuff (I don't know the correct words, there's probably a better way of describing that)
That sort of music is often called Contemporary Christian Music or CCM. Not really my preference, but its what the young'uns like to listen too and sing nowadays.
Putting together Ghosts and CCM I guess that your friend probably goes to a charismatic church.* They emphasise (over-emphasise IMHO) the Holy Spirit so there might be a denominational tendency to allow ghosts/spirits to be wandering around or it may just be an unofficial folk religion sort of thing. (Not meaning to be critical, "just saying")
* Do you want to know the difference between charismatic and pentecostal?
That sort of music is often called Contemporary Christian Music or CCM. Not really my preference, but its what the young'uns like to listen too and sing nowadays.
Putting together Ghosts and CCM I guess that your friend probably goes to a charismatic church.* They emphasise (over-emphasise IMHO) the Holy Spirit so there might be a denominational tendency to allow ghosts/spirits to be wandering around or it may just be an unofficial folk religion sort of thing. (Not meaning to be critical, "just saying")
* Do you want to know the difference between charismatic and pentecostal?
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 04, 2015, 02:19PMQuote from: MoominDave on Nov 04, 2015, 05:56AM ... rock'n'roll-driven worship type stuff (I don't know the correct words, there's probably a better way of describing that).That sort of music is often called Contemporary Christian Music or CCM. Not really my preference, but its what the young'uns like to listen too and sing nowadays.
I suspect what Dave's talking about are what's generally referred to as choruses or sometimes praise music (I think choruses may be old school and praise music the more popular contemporary term). CCM is an industry and genre of rock & roll, whereas simple, rock-based choruses are all about social worship--easy music just about everyone can sing with simple lyrics just about anyone can learn in one or two hearings. It's certainly not Mozart and the lyrics aren't up to Dillon or Chapman par, but that's not the point. It is however a major source of division in some churches--I'm sure many. A lot of churches manage it by having a separate chorus type service on Sundays and a more traditional one.
I suspect what Dave's talking about are what's generally referred to as choruses or sometimes praise music (I think choruses may be old school and praise music the more popular contemporary term). CCM is an industry and genre of rock & roll, whereas simple, rock-based choruses are all about social worship--easy music just about everyone can sing with simple lyrics just about anyone can learn in one or two hearings. It's certainly not Mozart and the lyrics aren't up to Dillon or Chapman par, but that's not the point. It is however a major source of division in some churches--I'm sure many. A lot of churches manage it by having a separate chorus type service on Sundays and a more traditional one.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: Baron von Bone on Nov 04, 2015, 04:26PMThat sort of music is often called Contemporary Christian Music or CCM. Not really my preference, but its what the young'uns like to listen too and sing nowadays.
I suspect what Dave's talking about are what's generally referred to as choruses or sometimes praise music (I think choruses may be old school and praise music the more popular contemporary term). CCM is an industry and genre of rock & roll, whereas simple, rock-based choruses are all about social worship--easy music just about everyone can sing with simple lyrics just about anyone can learn in one or two hearings. It's certainly not Mozart and the lyrics aren't up to Dillon or Chapman par, but that's not the point. It is however a major source of division in some churches--I'm sure many. A lot of churches manage it by having a separate chorus type service on Sundays and a more traditional one.
CCM is of 2 different types. One could really be called contemporary hymnody-- the Gettys and their friend Stuart Townsend come to mind here-- the Gettys are northern Irish transplants to the US and their music is generally well received by even most traditionalists. Sometimes it's accompanied by some sort of mild rock band, although Keith Getty is an accomplished pianist, and sometimes the Gettys have used Celtic type instrumentation--fiddles, etc-- picking up on their Irish roots. Many newer hymnals are now including their music.
Much of CCM is, as suggested, a form of Rock and Roll. Interestingly often churches that use it actually find less congregational participation than those who favor either traditional hymnody or the modern hynody of the likes of the Gettys and Townsend. Often it has become very band driven and even sometimes more of opportunity for aging baby-boomer rock star wannabes to play their favorite guitar riffs while the congregation listens. Sometimes it's supposed to be "for the sake of the young people," but it often pleases the aging baby-boomers more than some of the young people.
As you might guess, I'm really quite pleased with the contemporary hymnody and much less enamored with much of the Christian rock. My classical organist trained brother calls it 7-11 music-- 7 words repeated 11 times, but I show my prejudices in repeating that.
I suspect what Dave's talking about are what's generally referred to as choruses or sometimes praise music (I think choruses may be old school and praise music the more popular contemporary term). CCM is an industry and genre of rock & roll, whereas simple, rock-based choruses are all about social worship--easy music just about everyone can sing with simple lyrics just about anyone can learn in one or two hearings. It's certainly not Mozart and the lyrics aren't up to Dillon or Chapman par, but that's not the point. It is however a major source of division in some churches--I'm sure many. A lot of churches manage it by having a separate chorus type service on Sundays and a more traditional one.
CCM is of 2 different types. One could really be called contemporary hymnody-- the Gettys and their friend Stuart Townsend come to mind here-- the Gettys are northern Irish transplants to the US and their music is generally well received by even most traditionalists. Sometimes it's accompanied by some sort of mild rock band, although Keith Getty is an accomplished pianist, and sometimes the Gettys have used Celtic type instrumentation--fiddles, etc-- picking up on their Irish roots. Many newer hymnals are now including their music.
Much of CCM is, as suggested, a form of Rock and Roll. Interestingly often churches that use it actually find less congregational participation than those who favor either traditional hymnody or the modern hynody of the likes of the Gettys and Townsend. Often it has become very band driven and even sometimes more of opportunity for aging baby-boomer rock star wannabes to play their favorite guitar riffs while the congregation listens. Sometimes it's supposed to be "for the sake of the young people," but it often pleases the aging baby-boomers more than some of the young people.
As you might guess, I'm really quite pleased with the contemporary hymnody and much less enamored with much of the Christian rock. My classical organist trained brother calls it 7-11 music-- 7 words repeated 11 times, but I show my prejudices in repeating that.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 04, 2015, 02:19PM* Do you want to know the difference between charismatic and pentecostal?
Sure!
The internet tells me that Pentecostalism is a subset of Charismatic Christianity - the latter being a general term for all the "Hallelujah! I am healed! The Holy Spirit is working in me! Now I'm going to wobble my head all over the place with my tongue hanging out..." stuff (*). Fair enough?
(*) Apologies if that phrasing is a bit disrespectful...
Sure!
The internet tells me that Pentecostalism is a subset of Charismatic Christianity - the latter being a general term for all the "Hallelujah! I am healed! The Holy Spirit is working in me! Now I'm going to wobble my head all over the place with my tongue hanging out..." stuff (*). Fair enough?
(*) Apologies if that phrasing is a bit disrespectful...
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: John the Theologian on Nov 04, 2015, 05:32PM
Much of CCM is, as suggested, a form of Rock and Roll. Interestingly often churches that use it actually find less congregational participation than those who favor either traditional hymnody or the modern hynody of the likes of the Gettys and Townsend. Often it has become very band driven and even sometimes more of opportunity for aging baby-boomer rock star wannabes to play their favorite guitar riffs while the congregation listens. Sometimes it's supposed to be "for the sake of the young people," but it often pleases the aging baby-boomers more than some of the young people.
Agree 100%. I am not a fan but I've run such a praise band at times when I was needed.
It does not bring young people back, IMO, young people are gone for different reasons so it doesn't matter. It makes old geezers like me cringe.
But there is a group of people that seem to derive enormous emotional satisfaction from meditating to a few repetitive words with their hands in the air, and I can't fault that.
What bothers me is the solo-istic nature of much of the songs, resulting in the audience becoming listeners rather than participants.
Much of CCM is, as suggested, a form of Rock and Roll. Interestingly often churches that use it actually find less congregational participation than those who favor either traditional hymnody or the modern hynody of the likes of the Gettys and Townsend. Often it has become very band driven and even sometimes more of opportunity for aging baby-boomer rock star wannabes to play their favorite guitar riffs while the congregation listens. Sometimes it's supposed to be "for the sake of the young people," but it often pleases the aging baby-boomers more than some of the young people.
Agree 100%. I am not a fan but I've run such a praise band at times when I was needed.
It does not bring young people back, IMO, young people are gone for different reasons so it doesn't matter. It makes old geezers like me cringe.
But there is a group of people that seem to derive enormous emotional satisfaction from meditating to a few repetitive words with their hands in the air, and I can't fault that.
What bothers me is the solo-istic nature of much of the songs, resulting in the audience becoming listeners rather than participants.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 05, 2015, 02:32AM
The internet tells me that Pentecostalism is a subset of Charismatic Christianity - the latter being a general term for all the "Hallelujah! I am healed! The Holy Spirit is working in me! Now I'm going to wobble my head all over the place with my tongue hanging out..." stuff (*). Fair enough?
No, that's wrong. Per polls reported in Christianity Today magazine, what distinguishes Charismatic Christianity is not possession by the Spirit, speaking in tongues, etc., but shared belief in prosperity gospel. 97% of Charismatics believe faith guarantees wealth, while 995 believe it guarantees health.
The internet tells me that Pentecostalism is a subset of Charismatic Christianity - the latter being a general term for all the "Hallelujah! I am healed! The Holy Spirit is working in me! Now I'm going to wobble my head all over the place with my tongue hanging out..." stuff (*). Fair enough?
No, that's wrong. Per polls reported in Christianity Today magazine, what distinguishes Charismatic Christianity is not possession by the Spirit, speaking in tongues, etc., but shared belief in prosperity gospel. 97% of Charismatics believe faith guarantees wealth, while 995 believe it guarantees health.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 05, 2015, 06:55AMBut there is a group of people that seem to derive enormous emotional satisfaction from meditating to a few repetitive words with their hands in the air, and I can't fault that.Yeah, it really does seem to be an emotional form of meditation. Not generally appealing to me personally, but I agree--good stuff for those who are into it ... and I'd take choruses over laughing meditation any day.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 05, 2015, 06:55AMWhat bothers me is the solo-istic nature of much of the songs, resulting in the audience becoming listeners rather than participants.That's just wrong ... making it about Me seems about the most counterproductive thing a performer could do in this case. Hard to imagine how such a performer could be either so oblivious to that, or so egocentric the dynamic wouldn't absolutely undermine the selfish joy of showing off.
Well ... youth can explain it of course--younguns are very often just that way until they grow up a bit--can't really fault that, it's just part of the contract--good to encourage the correction though.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 05, 2015, 06:57AMNo, that's wrong. Per polls reported in Christianity Today magazine, what distinguishes Charismatic Christianity is not possession by the Spirit, speaking in tongues, etc., but shared belief in prosperity gospel. 97% of Charismatics believe faith guarantees wealth, while 995 believe it guarantees health.That's new since I was a believer--new and pretty forked. In my day Charismatics were all about the "magical superpower" take on religion--the speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, prophecy, words of wisdom and all that kinda ... stuff. I'd have to say that would be a significant upgrade over prosperity (and conversely prosperity is a major downgrade from the "magical superpower" mindset).
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 05, 2015, 06:55AMWhat bothers me is the solo-istic nature of much of the songs, resulting in the audience becoming listeners rather than participants.That's just wrong ... making it about Me seems about the most counterproductive thing a performer could do in this case. Hard to imagine how such a performer could be either so oblivious to that, or so egocentric the dynamic wouldn't absolutely undermine the selfish joy of showing off.
Well ... youth can explain it of course--younguns are very often just that way until they grow up a bit--can't really fault that, it's just part of the contract--good to encourage the correction though.
Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 05, 2015, 06:57AMNo, that's wrong. Per polls reported in Christianity Today magazine, what distinguishes Charismatic Christianity is not possession by the Spirit, speaking in tongues, etc., but shared belief in prosperity gospel. 97% of Charismatics believe faith guarantees wealth, while 995 believe it guarantees health.That's new since I was a believer--new and pretty forked. In my day Charismatics were all about the "magical superpower" take on religion--the speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, prophecy, words of wisdom and all that kinda ... stuff. I'd have to say that would be a significant upgrade over prosperity (and conversely prosperity is a major downgrade from the "magical superpower" mindset).
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ttf_ronkny
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Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 05, 2015, 06:55AMAgree 100%. I am not a fan but I've run such a praise band at times when I was needed.
It does not bring young people back, IMO, young people are gone for different reasons so it doesn't matter. It makes old geezers like me cringe.
But there is a group of people that seem to derive enormous emotional satisfaction from meditating to a few repetitive words with their hands in the air, and I can't fault that.
What bothers me is the solo-istic nature of much of the songs, resulting in the audience becoming listeners rather than participants.
Going to church used to mean worshiping God. Now it's turned into entertainment because people have forgotten why they attend church. Attend a Latin Mass and you'll see what I mean.
It does not bring young people back, IMO, young people are gone for different reasons so it doesn't matter. It makes old geezers like me cringe.
But there is a group of people that seem to derive enormous emotional satisfaction from meditating to a few repetitive words with their hands in the air, and I can't fault that.
What bothers me is the solo-istic nature of much of the songs, resulting in the audience becoming listeners rather than participants.
Going to church used to mean worshiping God. Now it's turned into entertainment because people have forgotten why they attend church. Attend a Latin Mass and you'll see what I mean.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 05, 2015, 02:32AMSure!
The internet tells me that Pentecostalism is a subset of Charismatic Christianity - the latter being a general term for all the "Hallelujah! I am healed! The Holy Spirit is working in me! Now I'm going to wobble my head all over the place with my tongue hanging out..." stuff (*). Fair enough?
(*) Apologies if that phrasing is a bit disrespectful...
I won't tell your friend how disrespectful you are
Historically the Pentecostal movement developed around the beginning of the 20th C and had a strong emphasis on the gifts of the spirit as a sign of faith. aka magical superpowers.
The "gifts" are not really super powers, the more common ones are "speaking in tongues" which for the skeptical sounds like babbling and healing, which seems to be pretty selective and unevidenced.
The charismatic movement started around the 1960's with similar beliefs, but it was within existing mainstream churches.
Charismata was the NT Greek term used for the Gifts of the Spirit that the Pentecostals and Charismatics seek.
Interestingly they are one of the few branches of christian churches that are growing.
Comments about their current beliefs and practices sound right from what I've heard too.
The internet tells me that Pentecostalism is a subset of Charismatic Christianity - the latter being a general term for all the "Hallelujah! I am healed! The Holy Spirit is working in me! Now I'm going to wobble my head all over the place with my tongue hanging out..." stuff (*). Fair enough?
(*) Apologies if that phrasing is a bit disrespectful...
I won't tell your friend how disrespectful you are
Historically the Pentecostal movement developed around the beginning of the 20th C and had a strong emphasis on the gifts of the spirit as a sign of faith. aka magical superpowers.
The "gifts" are not really super powers, the more common ones are "speaking in tongues" which for the skeptical sounds like babbling and healing, which seems to be pretty selective and unevidenced.
The charismatic movement started around the 1960's with similar beliefs, but it was within existing mainstream churches.
Charismata was the NT Greek term used for the Gifts of the Spirit that the Pentecostals and Charismatics seek.
Interestingly they are one of the few branches of christian churches that are growing.
Comments about their current beliefs and practices sound right from what I've heard too.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Sounds like a Dunning-Kruger Ethos Effect kinda thing. Again here its about the humility to doubt ones own sterling and the openness and readiness to make corrections.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Religion Matters: Take 3
I wouldn't say Dunning-Kruger. Rather that when a child realises that they are held to be good at something when in reality there's no effect, they often tend to backslide a little, resting on their laurels. Once we're grown up, we hope to have improved our perceptions to the point where false praise doesn't affect us, though in reality it's hard to be immune to it.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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ttf_ronkny
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: Baron von Bone on Nov 11, 2015, 05:58AMThe toughest test of how serious any believer really is about honesty.
That's a narcissistic and ignorant perspective. Has nothing to do with honesty of the believer. And we all pretty much have the same God. He's just called different things in different religions. Educate yourself.
That's a narcissistic and ignorant perspective. Has nothing to do with honesty of the believer. And we all pretty much have the same God. He's just called different things in different religions. Educate yourself.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
You keep using that word ...
Anyway--looks like a potentially interesting thread on the Religious forums. I thought #8 was a joke at first, but I think the dude's serious. Many of the answers (so far most) really seem to demonstrate how people project their own perceptions and thoughts onto others more than anything (kinda like we see here from some forumites--some quite notably), which I think is a valuable demonstration ... although I suspect those who are more in need of such learnin' are also the least inclined to go there, which may have something to do with why they're more in need.
There's definitely some interesting stuff going on in there though (Tlaloc and St. Frankenstein seem to be in the thick of it, also lewisnotmiller ... so far--there's a lot of truth in post #42. In any case it's very refreshing to see disagreements in discussion actually substantively discussed by adult psyches:
Religious Affiliation in USA Continues to Decline. WHY?
Anyway--looks like a potentially interesting thread on the Religious forums. I thought #8 was a joke at first, but I think the dude's serious. Many of the answers (so far most) really seem to demonstrate how people project their own perceptions and thoughts onto others more than anything (kinda like we see here from some forumites--some quite notably), which I think is a valuable demonstration ... although I suspect those who are more in need of such learnin' are also the least inclined to go there, which may have something to do with why they're more in need.
There's definitely some interesting stuff going on in there though (Tlaloc and St. Frankenstein seem to be in the thick of it, also lewisnotmiller ... so far--there's a lot of truth in post #42. In any case it's very refreshing to see disagreements in discussion actually substantively discussed by adult psyches:
Religious Affiliation in USA Continues to Decline. WHY?
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Religion Matters: Take 3
As the text right after the graph says, the decline was mostly among mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics. What this likely reflects is that many of the adherents of these bodies were rather nominal in their religious professions-- my anecdotal experience strongly confirms that-- and because it is not socially as useful to belong to a religious body as it was a generation or 2 ago, they simply have adopted a "why bother" attitude and drifted away.
I also believe that the watering down of the faith by those who hold to liberal versions of the faith which always seek to adapt the faith to the culture eventually leads to declines such as these because if the beliefs of the church are little different from the secular culture around them, most eventually again adopt the "why bother" approach. Some studies have pointed in that direction, but the most important one is by Notre Dame sociologist of religion , Christian Smith, who pointed out that the faith system of most American youth, regardless of what religious body they belonged to, was what he coined as "therapeutic moralistic Deism," a belief system which says that God exists but asks few demands of us, but generally pats us on the heads because we're good boys and girls occasionally and is there to bail us out if we get into trouble, but has little else to do with us. His definition is actually a bit more sophisticated than that, but you get the picture.
In other words, Smith says most youths today believe that God primarily exists to help us out occasionally since we're such nice guys. This deity especially cares very little about the moral activities of this generation, particularly what they do in bed.
I also believe that the watering down of the faith by those who hold to liberal versions of the faith which always seek to adapt the faith to the culture eventually leads to declines such as these because if the beliefs of the church are little different from the secular culture around them, most eventually again adopt the "why bother" approach. Some studies have pointed in that direction, but the most important one is by Notre Dame sociologist of religion , Christian Smith, who pointed out that the faith system of most American youth, regardless of what religious body they belonged to, was what he coined as "therapeutic moralistic Deism," a belief system which says that God exists but asks few demands of us, but generally pats us on the heads because we're good boys and girls occasionally and is there to bail us out if we get into trouble, but has little else to do with us. His definition is actually a bit more sophisticated than that, but you get the picture.
In other words, Smith says most youths today believe that God primarily exists to help us out occasionally since we're such nice guys. This deity especially cares very little about the moral activities of this generation, particularly what they do in bed.
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ttf_drizabone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Just read an old discussion of reason and belief by Alister McGrath published by our ABC (which is our version of BBC or NPR, not the American ABC)
Some interesting quotes were
QuoteMajor premise: Reason is a reliable authority in matters of belief.
Minor premise: Reason itself tells us that it is a reliable authority in matters of belief.
Conclusion: Therefore reason is a reliable authority in matters of belief.
But what's the correct version?
Quote"The God in whom the nineteenth century ceased to believe was invented in the seventeenth century."
from Alasdair MacIntyre
And
QuoteIn the last two centuries, the writings of Karl Marx, Charles Darwin and Sigmund Freud have raised deeply troubling questions for rationalism. How can we rely on reason, if reason itself is biased, skewed and compromised?
Some interesting quotes were
QuoteMajor premise: Reason is a reliable authority in matters of belief.
Minor premise: Reason itself tells us that it is a reliable authority in matters of belief.
Conclusion: Therefore reason is a reliable authority in matters of belief.
But what's the correct version?
Quote"The God in whom the nineteenth century ceased to believe was invented in the seventeenth century."
from Alasdair MacIntyre
And
QuoteIn the last two centuries, the writings of Karl Marx, Charles Darwin and Sigmund Freud have raised deeply troubling questions for rationalism. How can we rely on reason, if reason itself is biased, skewed and compromised?
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ttf_Radar
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: John the Theologian on Nov 04, 2015, 05:32PMCCM is of 2 different types.
Much of CCM is, as suggested, a form of Rock and Roll. Interestingly often churches that use it actually find less congregational participation than those who favor either traditional hymnody or the modern hynody of the likes of the Gettys and Townsend. Often it has become very band driven and even sometimes more of opportunity for aging baby-boomer rock star wannabes to play their favorite guitar riffs while the congregation listens. Sometimes it's supposed to be "for the sake of the young people," but it often pleases the aging baby-boomers more than some of the young people.
As you might guess, I'm really quite pleased with the contemporary hymnody and much less enamored with much of the Christian rock. My classical organist trained brother calls it 7-11 music-- 7 words repeated 11 times, but I show my prejudices in repeating that.
I can relate to the aging Baby-boomer rock star wannabe comments. My last church which I am now no longer a part of had a Praise Band which I (an aging baby boomer myself) did play for (Guitar/ bass guitar / drums depending on what was needed that Sunday). We did have both a contemporary and a traditional service, and I would participate in both every week. For me I didn't find the Contemporary service very worshipful, I did it to help out because my services were needed, but it was more of a performance for me that a worship experience. My experience with the contemporary service was that it didn't appeal to the teens and 20 somethings in the congregation (which we had few of), and had most of it's support from the over 40 to 60 year old crowd. It was in my opinion an unsuccessful attempt to try to reach younger adults that pretty much failed in our congregation (although it appears to have worked for others). Not saying we didn't pick up any younger families from it we did gain a few, but it also helped to alienate many older parishioners, and divided the already smallish congregation. When they started talking about going from two services to one "Blended" service that would be half traditional and half contemporary, I decided it was time to find a congregation who had a traditional worship style that better fit my concept of worship. The other deciding factor was we had a new younger minister who was very militant about making the change to one service and had an either you're with me or against me attitude.
Contemporary worship styles do appeal to some and don't appeal to others. There are a wide variety of churches with various styles of worship, and differing theologies and it isn't always easy to find a congregation that will meet all your needs. If you put in the effort, in most cases you can find a congregation that works to provide you a worship environment that feeds you spiritually, as well as I hope inspires you and provides you with opportunities to serve the greater community outside of the church walls. Worship style has become a divisive issue with many churches and denominations, as they struggle to try to remain relevant in changing times and cultures. There just isn't a one size fits all solution that is going to work for everyone. Me personally I still love the sound of a well played pipe organ, and singing for God's glory in the context of a traditional choir. The praise band experience just didn't work for me, if it works for someone else that's great.
Much of CCM is, as suggested, a form of Rock and Roll. Interestingly often churches that use it actually find less congregational participation than those who favor either traditional hymnody or the modern hynody of the likes of the Gettys and Townsend. Often it has become very band driven and even sometimes more of opportunity for aging baby-boomer rock star wannabes to play their favorite guitar riffs while the congregation listens. Sometimes it's supposed to be "for the sake of the young people," but it often pleases the aging baby-boomers more than some of the young people.
As you might guess, I'm really quite pleased with the contemporary hymnody and much less enamored with much of the Christian rock. My classical organist trained brother calls it 7-11 music-- 7 words repeated 11 times, but I show my prejudices in repeating that.
I can relate to the aging Baby-boomer rock star wannabe comments. My last church which I am now no longer a part of had a Praise Band which I (an aging baby boomer myself) did play for (Guitar/ bass guitar / drums depending on what was needed that Sunday). We did have both a contemporary and a traditional service, and I would participate in both every week. For me I didn't find the Contemporary service very worshipful, I did it to help out because my services were needed, but it was more of a performance for me that a worship experience. My experience with the contemporary service was that it didn't appeal to the teens and 20 somethings in the congregation (which we had few of), and had most of it's support from the over 40 to 60 year old crowd. It was in my opinion an unsuccessful attempt to try to reach younger adults that pretty much failed in our congregation (although it appears to have worked for others). Not saying we didn't pick up any younger families from it we did gain a few, but it also helped to alienate many older parishioners, and divided the already smallish congregation. When they started talking about going from two services to one "Blended" service that would be half traditional and half contemporary, I decided it was time to find a congregation who had a traditional worship style that better fit my concept of worship. The other deciding factor was we had a new younger minister who was very militant about making the change to one service and had an either you're with me or against me attitude.
Contemporary worship styles do appeal to some and don't appeal to others. There are a wide variety of churches with various styles of worship, and differing theologies and it isn't always easy to find a congregation that will meet all your needs. If you put in the effort, in most cases you can find a congregation that works to provide you a worship environment that feeds you spiritually, as well as I hope inspires you and provides you with opportunities to serve the greater community outside of the church walls. Worship style has become a divisive issue with many churches and denominations, as they struggle to try to remain relevant in changing times and cultures. There just isn't a one size fits all solution that is going to work for everyone. Me personally I still love the sound of a well played pipe organ, and singing for God's glory in the context of a traditional choir. The praise band experience just didn't work for me, if it works for someone else that's great.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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ttf_drizabone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: Baron von Bone on Nov 27, 2015, 09:26PMSpeaking of home grown terrorism ...
Its the same in Australia, although much lower figures.
And I'm sure that there are many more people killed by drivers in the States, just like here. But they mustn't be terrifying so don't count.
Its the same in Australia, although much lower figures.
And I'm sure that there are many more people killed by drivers in the States, just like here. But they mustn't be terrifying so don't count.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 27, 2015, 09:45PMIts the same in Australia, although much lower figures.
And I'm sure that there are many more people killed by drivers in the States, just like here. But they mustn't be terrifying so don't count.
Exactly.
We're wired to notice the special effects rather than the real numbers. That's not easy to overcome, but it's far more ... self-preservational. As with many of our physiological weaknesses it starts with awareness and acceptance. Then we can work realistically on avoidance and compensation. Most seem to prefer oblivion or even active denial when it comes to any of this sort of thing though, unfortunately, and that's amped up to 11 when religious doctrine/dogma is involved (and religious doctrine/dogma is often about justifying precisely these kinds of things--women as second class citizens, for an example we're doing relatively well on converting into history).
And I'm sure that there are many more people killed by drivers in the States, just like here. But they mustn't be terrifying so don't count.
Exactly.
We're wired to notice the special effects rather than the real numbers. That's not easy to overcome, but it's far more ... self-preservational. As with many of our physiological weaknesses it starts with awareness and acceptance. Then we can work realistically on avoidance and compensation. Most seem to prefer oblivion or even active denial when it comes to any of this sort of thing though, unfortunately, and that's amped up to 11 when religious doctrine/dogma is involved (and religious doctrine/dogma is often about justifying precisely these kinds of things--women as second class citizens, for an example we're doing relatively well on converting into history).
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ttf_drizabone
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 29, 2015, 02:19PMHey Byron,
how's this? http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html
I think it's cool, and learning about fallacies is an important tool in the critical thinking tool kit ... ?
I gather that's not a response to the post above it though, right? There's certainly nothing wrong with that--just want to make sure of the context here.
how's this? http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html
I think it's cool, and learning about fallacies is an important tool in the critical thinking tool kit ... ?
I gather that's not a response to the post above it though, right? There's certainly nothing wrong with that--just want to make sure of the context here.
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ttf_drizabone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
No, its not a response to anything. I just stumbled across it from another site visit, and thought it looked useful, but wanted to verify it.
I didn't realise that you had already posted it here.
I didn't realise that you had already posted it here.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 29, 2015, 03:09PMNo, its not a response to anything. I just stumbled across it from another site visit, and thought it looked useful, but wanted to verify it.
It's a good find, man--good to see where thinking starts to go astray rather than just fixing on the end result. The process is what it's all about, not the conclusions that the process produces. You can't check a conclusion based upon what the right conclusion is--it's the process that has to be scrutinized. It seems pretty common for many people to presume there's an error because they don't like a given conclusion, but that's just rehearsing a prejudice, as Sam Harris puts it. Where we correctly determine the soundness of an argument is through the soundness of the process and epistemology.
It's a good find, man--good to see where thinking starts to go astray rather than just fixing on the end result. The process is what it's all about, not the conclusions that the process produces. You can't check a conclusion based upon what the right conclusion is--it's the process that has to be scrutinized. It seems pretty common for many people to presume there's an error because they don't like a given conclusion, but that's just rehearsing a prejudice, as Sam Harris puts it. Where we correctly determine the soundness of an argument is through the soundness of the process and epistemology.
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ttf_drizabone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Sure, if you get the facts right and complete and then apply correct logic, you're going to get a right result even if its not what you want. But failed sanity checks based on experience can be a good indicator that you haven't got all of the facts or the process right.
It takes wisdom and humility to tell the difference.
It takes wisdom and humility to tell the difference.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 29, 2015, 05:53PMSure, if you get the facts right and complete and then apply correct logic, you're going to get a right result even if its not what you want. But failed sanity checks based on experience can be a good indicator that you haven't got all of the facts or the process right.
It takes wisdom and humility to tell the difference.
Couldn't agree more, but more than that, we're bias and investment machines, so as you point out wisdom and much more so humility are crucial to a sound process of developing real understanding rather than just the pretense of veracity attached to rehearsing our biases. That's all built into science and sound critical thinking. Unfortunately I'm not sure it's taught that way very often. Learning all about the mechanics and rules of logic is one thing, but being able to apply it functionally and invest in the process rather than in a particular result or range of results is quite another. As with violence we have to learn to resist our nature.
So I couldn't agree any more with you on that point, (Not sure what you're referring to re: sanity though--other than that it sounds like you're an old school (RPG) gamer--that would put a pretty problematic wrinkle in the process, no?) but I'd put intellectual humility ahead of wisdom because wisdom will grow out of it and it has to be in place for wisdom to happen. And what intellectual humility means is that we can subordinate our personal sentiments and biases and the conclusions we cherish in favor of the soundly processed understanding derived from sound epistemology and reasoning (arguably that we're so inclined--the we're internalized the tenet), and that we accept it's always going to be a probability and we always have to form our conclusions tentatively--contingent upon the indications of new information and/or improved processes of considering and analyzing it.
That may well be the biggest problem with sound critical thinking--it doesn't leave room for dogmatism and it's far from easy or certain, and frequent failure is a built in reality (constant correction of error and refinement of understanding). That makes it a pretty hard sell, even for most who recognize its value.
It takes wisdom and humility to tell the difference.
Couldn't agree more, but more than that, we're bias and investment machines, so as you point out wisdom and much more so humility are crucial to a sound process of developing real understanding rather than just the pretense of veracity attached to rehearsing our biases. That's all built into science and sound critical thinking. Unfortunately I'm not sure it's taught that way very often. Learning all about the mechanics and rules of logic is one thing, but being able to apply it functionally and invest in the process rather than in a particular result or range of results is quite another. As with violence we have to learn to resist our nature.
So I couldn't agree any more with you on that point, (Not sure what you're referring to re: sanity though--other than that it sounds like you're an old school (RPG) gamer--that would put a pretty problematic wrinkle in the process, no?) but I'd put intellectual humility ahead of wisdom because wisdom will grow out of it and it has to be in place for wisdom to happen. And what intellectual humility means is that we can subordinate our personal sentiments and biases and the conclusions we cherish in favor of the soundly processed understanding derived from sound epistemology and reasoning (arguably that we're so inclined--the we're internalized the tenet), and that we accept it's always going to be a probability and we always have to form our conclusions tentatively--contingent upon the indications of new information and/or improved processes of considering and analyzing it.
That may well be the biggest problem with sound critical thinking--it doesn't leave room for dogmatism and it's far from easy or certain, and frequent failure is a built in reality (constant correction of error and refinement of understanding). That makes it a pretty hard sell, even for most who recognize its value.
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ttf_drizabone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: Baron von Bone on Nov 29, 2015, 09:51PMNot sure what you're referring to re: sanity though--other than that it sounds like you're an old school (RPG) gamer--that would put a pretty problematic wrinkle in the process, no?
A sanity test or sanity check is a basic test to quickly evaluate whether a claim or the result of a calculation can possibly be true.
Quote...and that we accept it's always going to be a probability...
that's what you use your collection of dice for isn't it? d4, d6 d8, d10, d12 and d20 You do still have your dice and 3rd edition rules don't you?
A sanity test or sanity check is a basic test to quickly evaluate whether a claim or the result of a calculation can possibly be true.
Quote...and that we accept it's always going to be a probability...
that's what you use your collection of dice for isn't it? d4, d6 d8, d10, d12 and d20
You do still have your dice and 3rd edition rules don't you?-
ttf_drizabone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
At the risk of being called inconsistent, here's a linky to a cartoon, a satire even!
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/23/this-is-conservative-christian-logic-in-a-nutshell/
Feel free to discuss it and why I'll post it but not the Mo and Jesus ones
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/23/this-is-conservative-christian-logic-in-a-nutshell/
Feel free to discuss it and why I'll post it but not the Mo and Jesus ones
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 29, 2015, 10:38PMA sanity test or sanity check is a basic test to quickly evaluate whether a claim or the result of a calculation can possibly be true.Ah. I like it.
Doesn't pass the smell test.
Couldn't make it out of the gate (to even get into the race).
Not even wrong (because it doesn't even warrant consideration).
Never got off the ground.
Can't get through a proper BS filter.
On what planet is that true/the case/the deal/the way it works (etc)?
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 29, 2015, 10:38PMthat's what you use your collection of dice for isn't it? d4, d6 d8, d10, d12 and d20 You do still have your dice and 3rd edition rules don't you?I still have my 1st Edition rule book too, but I've gone through a few sets of dice--the first may be in the 1st Ed. box ... probably not though.
Doesn't pass the smell test.
Couldn't make it out of the gate (to even get into the race).
Not even wrong (because it doesn't even warrant consideration).
Never got off the ground.
Can't get through a proper BS filter.
On what planet is that true/the case/the deal/the way it works (etc)?
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 29, 2015, 10:38PMthat's what you use your collection of dice for isn't it? d4, d6 d8, d10, d12 and d20
You do still have your dice and 3rd edition rules don't you?I still have my 1st Edition rule book too, but I've gone through a few sets of dice--the first may be in the 1st Ed. box ... probably not though.-
ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Today's [Jesus & Mo] was spurred by Maryam Namazie's trending twitter tag #exmuslimbecause, and the backlash it has received.
Seems to be a mentality shared by many with non-Muslim religious franchises too ...
Seems to be a mentality shared by many with non-Muslim religious franchises too ...
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Her alleged motive clearly can't be true. It has to be something narcissistic or petty or otherwise nefarious, obviously, because people don't disagree with the radical religious right wing for good or valid reasons, only for the most vile and depraved and villainous motives, and of course they have to lie about that.
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ttf_MoominDave
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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ttf_bhcordova
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Religion Matters: Take 3
Quote from: drizabone on Nov 29, 2015, 10:38PMA sanity test or sanity check is a basic test to quickly evaluate whether a claim or the result of a calculation can possibly be true.
that's what you use your collection of dice for isn't it? d4, d6 d8, d10, d12 and d20 You do still have your dice and 3rd edition rules don't you?
3rd generation rules, I still have my 1st generation rules
that's what you use your collection of dice for isn't it? d4, d6 d8, d10, d12 and d20
You do still have your dice and 3rd edition rules don't you?3rd generation rules, I still have my 1st generation rules