TromboneChat

What are the components of the "Hartman" model trombone?

Quote from: tombone21 on Dec 28, 2014, 09:15AMWhat are the components of the "Hartman" model trombone?

Mr. Hartman plays a very specific instrument that took a long time to get to.  We made MANY components over MANY years trying to get it just right.  There's a lot of great things about this horn, and it suits the way Scott plays wonderfully.  When we built a second for him he played it for 5 minutes and was very pleased.  Anyone that knows Scott knows that he is very particular, so we took this as a great compliment!

The specs are:

Bell: TII 5GM T8
TS: TXS*
Valve: Dual Bore Rotor (w/Nickel Cap**)
Slide: TW47LWL w/1G leadpipe

* this is a custom order only and the intonation is quite different than any other Shires tuning slide.
** we no longer offer a nickel cap with the dual bore rotor, stay tuned if we offer Mr. Hartman's horn as an official model.

The result is a very focused, solo-istic instrument with a BUNCH of character.  Some parts of the sound are a touch Bach-like but it's a Shires through and through.

I hope that helps,
Ben

Is Shires going to be exhibiting at the Illinois Music Educators Association convention this year in Peoria? I'm planning on going up to see a student of mine who made All State in jazz. I figured while I was there, I might as well walk the hall and check out a few things.

Quote from: griffinben on Dec 28, 2014, 05:39PMMr. Hartman plays a very specific instrument that took a long time to get to.  We made MANY components over MANY years trying to get it just right.  There's a lot of great things about this horn, and it suits the way Scott plays wonderfully.  When we built a second for him he played it for 5 minutes and was very pleased.  Anyone that knows Scott knows that he is very particular, so we took this as a great compliment!

The specs are:

Bell: TII 5GM T8
TS: TXS*
Valve: Dual Bore Rotor (w/Nickel Cap**)
Slide: TW47LWL w/1G leadpipe

* this is a custom order only and the intonation is quite different than any other Shires tuning slide.
** we no longer offer a nickel cap with the dual bore rotor, stay tuned if we offer Mr. Hartman's horn as an official model.

The result is a very focused, solo-istic instrument with a BUNCH of character.  Some parts of the sound are a touch Bach-like but it's a Shires through and through.

I hope that helps,
Ben
Heard him on this just a couple of weeks ago.  The current combo sounds pretty great, both live in the huge hall and on the cans through the mics.  There were a lot of horns that were cycled through in the last decade.  This one sounds great. I should have asked him for a blow, but my tenor chops are miserable right now.

Cheers,
Andy

What is the most popular alto setup? Or, to put it another way, is there a standard setup that seems to work for almost anyone?

The horn guys website notes " we've found the most popular to be medium in red brass. We try to have all nickel slides in stock with a .485"/.495" bore", but the shires website doesn't list a medium weight red brass bell in the 'most popular' bells section.

It seems that the 85/95 nickle slide is the most popular slide option at any rate.

Quote from: lukeaar on Jan 10, 2015, 12:13AMWhat is the most popular alto setup? Or, to put it another way, is there a standard setup that seems to work for almost anyone?

The horn guys website notes " we've found the most popular to be medium in red brass. We try to have all nickel slides in stock with a .485"/.495" bore", but the shires website doesn't list a medium weight red brass bell in the 'most popular' bells section.

It seems that the 85/95 nickle slide is the most popular slide option at any rate.

There are definitely some options that are more popular than others and that work for a majority of people.  Generally it is either an A7YLW or A7GLW bell paired with either an A85/95 (yellow brass) or A85/95N (nickel) slide.  We also offer a valve (generally Bb) that winds up on about 60% (educated guess) of our horns.

I would say that I see more horns and players leaning toward the nickel slide with either the yellow or gold bell, but it all depends on what kind of sound and feel one wishes to achieve.  The nickel is brighter and narrower, the yellow wider and warmer.  I've been seeing more and more people pairing the nickel slide and yellow bell together for a bright, clear sound.

We have done red bells, mostly in Conn-like fashion, but these seem to be more special order than yellow or gold.

I hope that helps.


 

My friend has some questions regarding Shires bass trombones (as stated in another thread)

1) 1 bells vs 7 bells

2) HW bells

3) B78 single bore slides

4) A1, A2, A3 etc...which is the most annealed, with what effects.

5) TB...I believe that is a bronze bead wire instead of brass

6) HW slides

Please, answer the question in general terms. He knows his results may or may not be what you guys say.

Quote from: Bassmentbone on May 18, 2015, 03:26AMMy friend has some questions regarding Shires bass trombones (as stated in another thread)

1) 1 bells vs 7 bells

2) HW bells

3) B78 single bore slides

4) A1, A2, A3 etc...which is the most annealed, with what effects.

5) TB...I believe that is a bronze bead wire instead of brass

6) HW slides

Please, answer the question in general terms. He knows his results may or may not be what you guys say.



There's a lot here.  I'll address your questions by the numbers.

1.) 1 vs. 7 type bells.  Most modern bells come in one of two basic constructions, one piece bells (like a Bach) or 2 piece bells (like a Conn or King).  The distribution of metal results in different tonal characteristics, which have been discussed previously in this thread and on the forum in general (so I won't go into major details here).  The type 7 bells manipulate the metal in a way that more closely approximates a one piece bell, effectively blending the characteristics.  The type 7 bells have become our most popular by a large margin.

2.) HW bells.  Not exactly sure what you are looking for, so I will describe them generally.  When Steve started the company, heavy bells were in vogue, so our standard weight bells are actually quite heavy.  The HW bells are heavier still.  In general, a heavier weight will center more securely but may be slower to respond and has a more limited tonal palette, particularly at soft dynamics.  The trade off is that they have more tonal stability at really loud dynamics (i.e. resist brilliance more).  I have not seen much call for these bells on tenor trombone in my time at Shires (since 2012).

3.) B78 slides.  Generally not popular, special order only.  A case of bigger not necessarily being better, B78 slides need a strong player to get the most out of them.  They generally sound brighter and less focused than slides, and often the sound is not filled out in a character that people expect.  I only know of one person that successfully uses these slides, Gabrielle Malloggi of Orchestra del Maggio Musicale Fiorentino, and then it's only for certain occasions.  Everyone else gravitates to the B62-78.

4.)  You will forgive me if I do not reveal completely everything about annealing treatments.  In general, annealing will provide a slightly warmer sound and more timbral flexibility of lower overtones, sometimes at the expense of clarity/brilliance.  In general, I recommend these only to specific players.  A4 for tenor, A5 for bass, and only on particular models.

5.)  TB has been a bronze beadwire, yes.  It can provide some interesting color and articulation results, however it is not what most people gravitate towards.  I cannot think of a single instance where I have recommended this treatment.

6.) HW slides.  Again, not are what you are asking for.  We do not offer heavyweight slides, however the Bollinger slide incorporates some heavier elements.  I also cannot think of a single instance that I have recommended a slide heavier than our standard weight.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of these questions are regarding some of our more obscure options (or non-standard possibilities).  As an intellectual exercise, I appreciate the quest for knowledge which is why I have responded in kind to the best of my ability.  The comments that follow are not necessairly a response directly to you, but in general to all that want to consider the "what-ifs". 

In reality, I find people are often excited to explore unusual avenues for the sake of that possibility and are often frustrated with the results in the long run.

As of this year, we've been in business for 20 years.  There has been a lot of experimentation (which does continue) over these years and I feel we've done an excellent job responding to the needs of players worldwide.  During these two decades we've gained a lot of knowledge and an excellent understand the different elements of our instruments and how the y work together (or against each other!).  As a result, we have have combinations that we come back to over and over again for a simple reason: THEY WORK!  This isn't as much fun for the being different impulse, but it does result in some very fine instruments that people wind up being happier with over the long haul.

I hope this helps.
Ben

Great answer. Ben.

Again we get to the problem that you can't "spec" your way to the perfect horn.  Also, there is no combination of exotic elements that will take a poor player and make him a star.  The best combination is a "plain vanilla" horn and a lot of practice.

Quote from: BGuttman on May 18, 2015, 10:53AMGreat answer. Ben.

Again we get to the problem that you can't "spec" your way to the perfect horn.  Also, there is no combination of exotic elements that will take a poor player and make him a star.  The best combination is a "plain vanilla" horn and a lot of practice.

This is kind of a yes and no.

No, you cannot simply spec a horn which will give you abilities you do not have.

But yes, the right horn, no matter what age or level you are at, will allow you to best use the abilities you do have.  It does not behoove the player to be working against the instrument, and it can often serve as a detriment to progress or a complete deterrent to playing at all.  It matters not what brand or model it is as long as it works for the player (and indeed, at less advanced degrees of development there is certain to be a middle of the road instrument that will work for them).  So I do not want to discount the role an appropriate instrument serves.

An appropriate instrument, from a a student model to a Shires, will allow the player to best make use of their own abilities and grow further.

-Ben

I think what Bruce is trying to say is that, without going to the factory and being fitted, you can't decide on the parts you want and get exactly what you thought you would get.

For instance, this friend would order a heavy bell with A5 treatment, bronze bell wire, and a B78 slide, but not probably be satisfied with the instrument they got. Instead, they should go to the factory (or at least a shop with a good inventory) and go from there.

Quote from: griffinben on May 18, 2015, 10:33AMThere's a lot here.  I'll address your questions by the numbers.

1.) 1 vs. 7 type bells.  Most modern bells come in one of two basic constructions, one piece bells (like a Bach) or 2 piece bells (like a Conn or King).  The distribution of metal results in different tonal characteristics, which have been discussed previously in this thread and on the forum in general (so I won't go into major details here).  The type 7 bells manipulate the metal in a way that more closely approximates a one piece bell, effectively blending the characteristics.  The type 7 bells have become our most popular by a large margin.

2.) HW bells.  Not exactly sure what you are looking for, so I will describe them generally.  When Steve started the company, heavy bells were in vogue, so our standard weight bells are actually quite heavy.  The HW bells are heavier still.  In general, a heavier weight will center more securely but may be slower to respond and has a more limited tonal palette, particularly at soft dynamics.  The trade off is that they have more tonal stability at really loud dynamics (i.e. resist brilliance more).  I have not seen much call for these bells on tenor trombone in my time at Shires (since 2012).

3.) B78 slides.  Generally not popular, special order only.  A case of bigger not necessarily being better, B78 slides need a strong player to get the most out of them.  They generally sound brighter and less focused than slides, and often the sound is not filled out in a character that people expect.  I only know of one person that successfully uses these slides, Gabrielle Malloggi of Orchestra del Maggio Musicale Fiorentino, and then it's only for certain occasions.  Everyone else gravitates to the B62-78.

4.)  You will forgive me if I do not reveal completely everything about annealing treatments.  In general, annealing will provide a slightly warmer sound and more timbral flexibility of lower overtones, sometimes at the expense of clarity/brilliance.  In general, I recommend these only to specific players.  A4 for tenor, A5 for bass, and only on particular models.

5.)  TB has been a bronze beadwire, yes.  It can provide some interesting color and articulation results, however it is not what most people gravitate towards.  I cannot think of a single instance where I have recommended this treatment.

6.) HW slides.  Again, not are what you are asking for.  We do not offer heavyweight slides, however the Bollinger slide incorporates some heavier elements.  I also cannot think of a single instance that I have recommended a slide heavier than our standard weight.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of these questions are regarding some of our more obscure options (or non-standard possibilities).  As an intellectual exercise, I appreciate the quest for knowledge which is why I have responded in kind to the best of my ability.  The comments that follow are not necessairly a response directly to you, but in general to all that want to consider the "what-ifs". 

In reality, I find people are often excited to explore unusual avenues for the sake of that possibility and are often frustrated with the results in the long run.

As of this year, we've been in business for 20 years.  There has been a lot of experimentation (which does continue) over these years and I feel we've done an excellent job responding to the needs of players worldwide.  During these two decades we've gained a lot of knowledge and an excellent understand the different elements of our instruments and how the y work together (or against each other!).  As a result, we have have combinations that we come back to over and over again for a simple reason: THEY WORK!  This isn't as much fun for the being different impulse, but it does result in some very fine instruments that people wind up being happier with over the long haul.

I hope this helps.
Ben



Thanks Ben!

I have another favor to ask (as per my friend)

He now wanst to know what horn you'd suggest for him.

He curretly is playing a BII 1Y, B62, B2.5, BGC, inline trubores. He finds that the 1Y (maybe it isnt the bell)doesnt hold up to the loud dynamics well enough, and doesnt provide enough stability for him. He wants a very consistant sound from soft to loud, low to high. He says his high register is a little too bright and thought the A treatment would mellow that out some. Ben, what do you suggest?

He was looking to get a 7YHW with an 'A' treatment, turns out, there is only 1 treatment availible (in case there were varying degrees of it, he wanted a lesser). He likes the feel of a dual bore slide and the sound of a single, so he thought a B78 would solve his problem. He also said that when he put a bollinger slide on his horn, he really liked the sound, so he believes that a HW slide would give a HW bell the juice the bell needs to sound its best.

Please advise Ben.

Quote from: Bassmentbone on May 18, 2015, 02:10PMThanks Ben!

I have another favor to ask (as per my friend)

He now wanst to know what horn you'd suggest for him.

He curretly is playing a BII 1Y, B62, B2.5, BGC, inline trubores. He finds that the 1Y (maybe it isnt the bell)doesnt hold up to the loud dynamics well enough, and doesnt provide enough stability for him. He wants a very consistant sound from soft to loud, low to high. He says his high register is a little too bright and thought the A treatment would mellow that out some. Ben, what do you suggest?
I'll jump in here a little.

First of all, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me when people say they want a very consistent sound from soft to loud, low to high. Loud and soft ARE different sounds, as are low to high. I think what people often mean by that is that they want a sound that changes in a linear way - in other words, that the differences in tone color happen gradually as the dynamic changes, without any sudden changes that are hard to predict

I find that the least linear changes in tone color happen for me with the heaviest bells. I like the sound of a heavy bell very much at mezzo dynamics, but I have trouble getting them to focus the way I want in soft dynamics, and when I go above a certain loudness they very suddenly become shouty, ugly, crass, sheet metal-ripping sounds. And that shift happens in a very sudden way, like an on/off switch.

For me, the lightest bells (I played a BII 7YLW for a while) tend to get thin in loud dynamics, although the changes happen in a gradual way that I like, and they take a lot of work to focus in the upper register, strangely enough.

The most standard bass trombone bell from Shires now is the BII 7YM, which is essentially what's on the Bollinger model. Blair used to play different Edwards bells for different things - heavier for orchestra, lighter for solos, etc. - but the 7YM (or its version on the Bollinger) is an amazingly flexible bell that will do both extremely well. I play a BII 7GM, which feels more like home to me, but I like the 7YM a lot as well. There's no on/off switch to the tone color with these bells - they have a lot of life and color at all dynamics, along with excellent stability.

QuoteHe was looking to get a 7YHW with an 'A' treatment, turns out, there is only 1 treatment availible (in case there were varying degrees of it, he wanted a lesser).
I've never seen a 7YHW. When I started at Shires we saw a fair number of 1YHWs and 2YHWs, especially with the T7 bell wire. George Curran plays a BII 7Y A5, I believe - but George has always done well with heavier bells (he used to play a BII 2YHWT7), and the New York Philharmonic is the New York Philharmonic. Most of us don't play with such a large orchestra in Avery Fisher Hall, which quite simply needs the back of the orchestra to play very loud. George also plays a LW Greg Black 1G for a mouthpiece and a lightened Axial valve section, so the heavier bell is balancing things in a different way than what most people play.

If your friend really likes heavy bells, I would suggest the BII 2YHWT7, which is really the only heavy bell I've felt like I could make music with.

QuoteHe likes the feel of a dual bore slide and the sound of a single, so he thought a B78 would solve his problem. He also said that when he put a bollinger slide on his horn, he really liked the sound, so he believes that a HW slide would give a HW bell the juice the bell needs to sound its best.

Unless your friend is truly a beast with an enormous air capacity, I can't recommend a B78. Matt Guilford played one for a while - he's only a slightly taller than average man, but he's an exceptionally strong player and has always been a runner - and found it was just too much work. If he liked the Bollinger slide, he should buy the Bollinger slide.

In fact, from what you're describing, your friend should probably just buy a complete Bollinger model. It's not the instrument I would choose to play for myself, but as a complete system it's well-balanced and excellent. If he's used to a conventional Bb/F/Gb/D tuning, they can do that. Also from what you're describing, your friend might be better served with axial valves than with TruBores.

I used to play shires and have had the pleasure of working with Gabe on a set-up in the past. I figured I would ask my questions on the forum so others might benefit too.

After shires I moved to a greenhoe 42 with a newish bach yellow brass bell.  Its what I would call light and soft.  Bends and dents easily. I grew up on edwards. I admit I miss the axial flow valve but I much prefer the quick response of the greenhoe. I have heard many good things about the vintage new york. I have noticed a light weight axial on the site whats this about?


Thanks

Matt

Thanks Gabe...I'll pass your info on.

Quote from: trmbtrmb on May 18, 2015, 04:09PMI used to play shires and have had the pleasure of working with Gabe on a set-up in the past. I figured I would ask my questions on the forum so others might benefit too.

After shires I moved to a greenhoe 42 with a newish bach yellow brass bell.  Its what I would call light and soft.  Bends and dents easily. I grew up on edwards. I admit I miss the axial flow valve but I much prefer the quick response of the greenhoe. I have heard many good things about the vintage new york. I have noticed a light weight axial on the site whats this about?


Thanks

Matt

Hi Matt,

Ben will add to this I'm sure, but the light weight axial has no brace in the tuning crook loop, and it might have a shortened valve slide so that there's less overlapping tubing (I know that's true for the bass LW axials).

I haven't played a fully put together VNY model, but when I play tenor I play essentially the Chicago model, which is great. Ben and Sam (Glazier, not Burtis) tell me that the dual bore rotor is quickly becoming the valve of choice for the Chicago model.

Thanks Gabe! I noticed Colin Williams was playing a dual-bore rotor on their euro-tour.

Any reports on how the light weight thayers play?

QuoteThanks Ben!

I have another favor to ask (as per my friend)

He now wanst to know what horn you'd suggest for him.

He curretly is playing a BII 1Y, B62, B2.5, BGC, inline trubores. He finds that the 1Y (maybe it isnt the bell)doesnt hold up to the loud dynamics well enough, and doesnt provide enough stability for him. He wants a very consistant sound from soft to loud, low to high. He says his high register is a little too bright and thought the A treatment would mellow that out some. Ben, what do you suggest?

He was looking to get a 7YHW with an 'A' treatment, turns out, there is only 1 treatment available (in case there were varying degrees of it, he wanted a lesser). He likes the feel of a dual bore slide and the sound of a single, so he thought a B78 would solve his problem. He also said that when he put a bollinger slide on his horn, he really liked the sound, so he believes that a HW slide would give a HW bell the juice the bell needs to sound its best.

Please advise Ben.
Basically, what Gabe said.

Jumping in on a few more specifics...

I don't think I would suggest a heavyweight bell either.  It sounds like your friend needs some flexibility or give from the the bell.  A BII 7YM or BII 7Y A5 might be just the ticket.

The Bollinger slide, for various reasons, plays and responds like a smaller slide to me sensibilities; quick response, crisp articulation, responsive to air streams of a wide variety of air widths and speeds.  A straight B78 would have the opposite effect.

In all seriousness, your friend should look at going somewhere that has a wide variety of components to try out.  Either the factory, a well stocked dealer, or a festival.  The specifics (and curiosity) may only be satisfied in person.  Considering the cost of a new bass, an overnight trip from Canada is a drop in the bucket in exchange for years of worry free playing on an instrument with no compromises.

-Ben

QuoteAfter shires I moved to a greenhoe 42 with a newish bach yellow brass bell.  Its what I would call light and soft.  Bends and dents easily. I grew up on edwards. I admit I miss the axial flow valve but I much prefer the quick response of the greenhoe. I have heard many good things about the vintage new york. I have noticed a light weight axial on the site whats this about?

The Vintage New York is indeed a great horn.  I find it to have the large body of sound of a Bach paired with the clarity and projection of what you would expect from a Shires.  It also doesn't have the "funny" notes that a 42 will often have. It's available with either a yellow or gold brass bell and either a dual bore rotor or axial flow valve.

Regarding response, I would want to explore what you felt was slow responding.  If you mean the feel of spring,or how long it takes to feel the edges of the response in your body and chops, a rotor will always be quicker than an axial.  If you are talking about the time between when you initiate the note and when the instrument responds I think you will find that our Vintage New York is incredibly responsive.

Lightweight valve sections are not, to me, quicker responding.  They are a little larger feeling and give you a little bit larger tonal palette and bit broader sound and feel.  They are not as "locked in" as the standard weight.  I rather like them, myself, but it takes a clear idea of what you want to do to get the most out of them.  I would not look to one for a quicker response.

I hope that helps.
Ben

Is there plans for a vintage bass model?

Can you describe the difference between A5 and regular bass bells without revealing the annealing magic?

Thanks Ben. I will be in the USA starting end of June until August. Still in the process of gathering cash. Best idea is probably blindfold test. Will you be around late June and/or July? Thanks Matt

Quote from: griffinben on May 19, 2015, 06:30AMBasically, what Gabe said.

Jumping in on a few more specifics...

I don't think I would suggest a heavyweight bell either.  It sounds like your friend needs some flexibility or give from the the bell.  A BII 7YM or BII 7Y A5 might be just the ticket.

The Bollinger slide, for various reasons, plays and responds like a smaller slide to me sensibilities; quick response, crisp articulation, responsive to air streams of a wide variety of air widths and speeds.  A straight B78 would have the opposite effect.

In all seriousness, your friend should look at going somewhere that has a wide variety of components to try out.  Either the factory, a well stocked dealer, or a festival.  The specifics (and curiosity) may only be satisfied in person.  Considering the cost of a new bass, an overnight trip from Canada is a drop in the bucket in exchange for years of worry free playing on an instrument with no compromises.

-Ben

Much appreciated Ben!

Quote from: trmbtrmb on May 19, 2015, 11:35AMThanks Ben. I will be in the USA starting end of June until August. Still in the process of gathering cash. Best idea is probably blindfold test. Will you be around late June and/or July? Thanks Matt

Hi Matt,

I'll be here when you are ready!

Ben

Quote from: SethMatrix on May 19, 2015, 08:45AMIs there plans for a vintage bass model?

Can you describe the difference between A5 and regular bass bells without revealing the annealing magic?

I know of no immediate plans for a vintage bass, though we can put together something based on what you were looking for.  I find the Shires Custom to be a good alternative to a Bach 50, if that is what you mean.  We also do custom slides in Conn width, which go a long way toward bringing a similar feel and response.

The A5 treatment gives the bell a bit more give; it makes the sound and feel a bit more elastic with a tendency toward warmth.  This works extremely well with the standard weight bass bells and the 7Y in particular. It does give up some of the crispness of articulation that you find on an otherwise similar bell.  Not clarity, but it looses a little of the "T" at the front of the note (it get's rounded out a little bit).

Ben

This is my question (not my friends)

How does Shires go about caring for their slides/valves in the showroom?

By that I mean, how often are things lubed and cleaned.

Quote from: Bassmentbone on May 21, 2015, 07:18PMThis is my question (not my friends)

How does Shires go about caring for their slides/valves in the showroom?

By that I mean, how often are things lubed and cleaned.

We keep everything maintained as necessary.

Valves get oiled before use, and slides are evaluated before an appointment and get swabbed and/or re-lubricated as necessary.

Ben

Quote from: griffinben on May 22, 2015, 09:23AMWe keep everything maintained as necessary.

Valves get oiled before use, and slides are evaluated before an appointment and get swabbed and/or re-lubricated as necessary.

Ben

Rats, I was hoping it had something to do with little elves at night.

Quote from: sfboner on May 22, 2015, 10:25AMRats, I was hoping it had something to do with little elves at night.

I didn't say when it was done or who does it...

Quote from: griffinben on May 22, 2015, 09:23AMWe keep everything maintained as necessary.

Valves get oiled before use, and slides are evaluated before an appointment and get swabbed and/or re-lubricated as necessary.

Ben

So if someone was coming in to get fitted to a bass, would you lube ALL the valves and ALL the slides for bass?

Quote from: Bassmentbone on May 22, 2015, 01:58PMSo if someone was coming in to get fitted to a bass, would you lube ALL the valves and ALL the slides for bass?

No need to worry about that. Valves and slides don't generally sit for that long at the factory.

Does shires do hagmanns?

Quote from: bass trombone guy on May 22, 2015, 03:07PMDoes shires do hagmanns?


Shires does not fit Hagmann valves to our instruments.  We've tried a few times in the past and the experience was labor intensive enough that we cannot do so profitably.  Moreover, we do not make Hagmann valves, so we cannot warranty them. 

There have been some people that have had Hagmann valves retro fitted to their instruments.  The most successful of which I have seen was done by Rene Hagmann himself for Justin Clark.  If anyone were serious about adding them I would encourage them to go that route.

Ben

Quote from: griffinben on May 22, 2015, 04:00PMShires does not fit Hagmann valves to our instruments.  We've tried a few times in the past and the experience was labor intensive enough that we cannot do so profitably.  Moreover, we do not make Hagmann valves, so we cannot warranty them. 

There have been some people that have had Hagmann valves retro fitted to their instruments.  The most successful of which I have seen was done by Rene Hagmann himself for Justin Clark.  If anyone were serious about adding them I would encourage them to go that route.

Ben
Would you say they blow similar to the Shires Trubore when the valve is engaged?

I've played Shires trombones fitted with Hagman valves. I found they play much like the trubore, maybe a little more open. I had no problem having a local tech take the Hagman valves off of a  used Besson, and having them put on a Shires straight neckpipe. If you happen to have a Hagman valve this is a good route. If you don't I'd recommend buying the Shires trubore, it's a good valve.

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on May 22, 2015, 02:50PMNo need to worry about that. Valves and slides don't generally sit for that long at the factory.

Good to know!

Another question:

Take Mr.Bollinger. When he started coming to get fit to his signature model, did you guys already have valves with the second valve tuned to quarter tone G?

What if someone like Mr. Pollard came, do you have valve sets with the second valve tuned to G?

I believe I have the first bass Shires made with flat G tuning, made about 7 or 8 years ago.  It took them a few tries to get the length right.  When it first arrived, it was far too short, basically a G valve.  Then they made me a couple more, longer tuning slides, and the longest one was the correct length.  Even that one is a bit on the short side.  i need to pull the valve slide out about an inch to get F and C in 3rd position. 

It's quite different in appearance from the Bollinger model.  To make the 2nd valve branch shorter, they used a rather narrow tuning crook, and it sticks out a bit farther than the F branch.  I'll post a picture of it here later.

Quote from: SethMatrix on May 22, 2015, 04:15PMWould you say they blow similar to the Shires Trubore when the valve is engaged?

I actually find the Hagmann valves completely different than the Tru-Bores (and yes, I've played a conversion done both by us and Rene Hagmann).

I think of the Tru-Bores as having the breadth of sound of an axial while having the clarity of a rotor.  This is an oversimplification, but it gets to the heart of the matter very well.  Tru-Bores also have a very solid slot and feel.

To my sensibilities, Hagmann valves sit somewhere between axials and rotors.  They have a similar diffuse quality to the sound as axials (i.e. breadth of sound with a less intense core in the middle) but a similar engagement as a ported or vented rotor design, like a Greenhoe or Kanstul CR.  (I know they are very different, but the engagement of the note and slot of the note is larger and a bit more seamless.  There's less "edge" to the engagement and slot).  They also have a bit more personality in the middle overtones of the sound than axial flow valves.

We have done some experiments that can replicate this feel more, as well as bringing other component combinations that can also get closer to this feel when a customer so desires it.

Ben

Quote from: sfboner on May 22, 2015, 06:57PMI believe I have the first bass Shires made with flat G tuning, made about 7 or 8 years ago.  It took them a few tries to get the length right.  When it first arrived, it was far too short, basically a G valve.  Then they made me a couple more, longer tuning slides, and the longest one was the correct length.  Even that one is a bit on the short side.  i need to pull the valve slide out about an inch to get F and C in 3rd position. 

It's quite different in appearance from the Bollinger model.  To make the 2nd valve branch shorter, they used a rather narrow tuning crook, and it sticks out a bit farther than the F branch.  I'll post a picture of it here later.

Actually, the Bollinger model has the same Gb slide crook as normal bass axials, the legs are much shorter.

We currently only use a different slide crook ("short second valve branch") for G wraps, which can also be ordered with longer slides to put them in a flat G.

Ben

Quote from: Bassmentbone on May 22, 2015, 06:40PMGood to know!

Another question:

Take Mr.Bollinger. When he started coming to get fit to his signature model, did you guys already have valves with the second valve tuned to quarter tone G?

What if someone like Mr. Pollard came, do you have valve sets with the second valve tuned to G?

Valves with different tuning are custom order only.  Mr. Bollinger already had set his tuning system, so we were able to find a solution quickly.  Plus the afore mentioned quarter tone valve sections we made before.

If anyone was interested in valve sections with different tuning we could accommodate them with a firm commitment to the valves themselves.

Ben

Quote from: griffinben on May 23, 2015, 09:12AMActually, the Bollinger model has the same Gb slide crook as normal bass axials, the legs are much shorter.

We currently only use a different slide crook ("short second valve branch") for G wraps, which can also be ordered with longer slides to put them in a flat G.

Ben

Hi Ben -

I'm not sure if you didn't read my post thoroughly, I already said that this horn was quite different from the Bollinger model.  This instrument was made long before the Bollinger model, and was made before your employment at Shires.  I do believe (based on the number of attempts it took to get the length of the 2nd valve branch correct) that this was the first bass with flat G tuning they ever produced.  It must not have been clear yet that the 2nd valve branch could be made the same width as a Gb valve, thus the use of the narrow crook.  Here's a picture.

By the way, this is also an example of Shires being willing to go to great lengths to make the customer happy.  I had originally planned to just order a standard Gb valve and have a tech cut it down per the instruction in Bollinger's book, but Eric at Peninsula talked me into ordering it this way.  When I began negotiating the making of this horn, the people I spoke with were not familiar with "Bollinger" tuning, and it took a good bit of back and forth via email and phone before it was clear what I wanted.  I think they made four tuning crooks for this valve before the length was correct for flat G, and there was never a complaint on their end, nor was I charged anything extra over the standard price.

I remember this horn.

I was one of the people to play-test, but honestly the Bollinger tuning is so foreign to me that I can't tell when it's right.

I haven't been able to locate any Shires serial number charts.
I'm trying to date my Shires .500.
The serial number is 37XX.

The bell appears to be hand engraved.
Sherry Huntley?

Quote from: sfboner on May 23, 2015, 10:45AMHi Ben -

I'm not sure if you didn't read my post thoroughly, I already said that this horn was quite different from the Bollinger model.  This instrument was made long before the Bollinger model, and was made before your employment at Shires.  I do believe (based on the number of attempts it took to get the length of the 2nd valve branch correct) that this was the first bass with flat G tuning they ever produced.  It must not have been clear yet that the 2nd valve branch could be made the same width as a Gb valve, thus the use of the narrow crook.  Here's a picture.

By the way, this is also an example of Shires being willing to go to great lengths to make the customer happy.  I had originally planned to just order a standard Gb valve and have a tech cut it down per the instruction in Bollinger's book, but Eric at Peninsula talked me into ordering it this way.  When I began negotiating the making of this horn, the people I spoke with were not familiar with "Bollinger" tuning, and it took a good bit of back and forth via email and phone before it was clear what I wanted.  I think they made four tuning crooks for this valve before the length was correct for flat G, and there was never a complaint on their end, nor was I charged anything extra over the standard price.

Sorry, I did miss a word through the reading, my apologies for the contrary post!

I'm glad to hear about the customer service and that you got a horn that meets your needs!

Ben

mostly intellectual curiousity here:

1, if someone were to use a 47-62 slide for bass trombone (tw47-62 or tb47-62) what would you recommend in terms of leadpipe? (is there a vague rule?, obviously it depends on the player) Do you see this much at all?

2, can one get independent valves in F and G, then get additional tuning slides for bG and Gb? (i read that you offer a bollinger tuning slide for G valves, but is another available to lower the valve all the way to Gb?)

3, do you find any consistency regarding leadpipe choice? (tight or open for a player using an open mouthpiece, tight vs open for an open or tight horn, etc.,.)

4, how frequently do you sell non-yellow brass leadpipes? (gold brass, nickel, ss; obviously you can't give me sales figures, but I'm curious how often this is a final step to get a horn just right or how often people order these alone)

and thank you for doing this, this whole thread has been a fantastic read!

Can someone please talk about the 2R bell.  Their experiences with it, pros/cons, etc.  Good orchestral bell?

Thanks!

Quote from: CRWV1987 on Jun 01, 2015, 02:44PMmostly intellectual curiousity here:

1, if someone were to use a 47-62 slide for bass trombone (tw47-62 or tb47-62) what would you recommend in terms of leadpipe? (is there a vague rule?, obviously it depends on the player) Do you see this much at all?

2, can one get independent valves in F and G, then get additional tuning slides for bG and Gb? (i read that you offer a bollinger tuning slide for G valves, but is another available to lower the valve all the way to Gb?)

3, do you find any consistency regarding leadpipe choice? (tight or open for a player using an open mouthpiece, tight vs open for an open or tight horn, etc.,.)

4, how frequently do you sell non-yellow brass leadpipes? (gold brass, nickel, ss; obviously you can't give me sales figures, but I'm curious how often this is a final step to get a horn just right or how often people order these alone)

and thank you for doing this, this whole thread has been a fantastic read!


Happy to answer any questions I can!

1.) Leadpipe choice can be highly personal.  We've done some TB47-62 slides for people to use with basses; they generally gravitate toward leadpipes that are similar what they play on bass, in the 1.5-2.5 range.  The leadpipes then respond in a similar fashion to what they are used to, simply in a slightly smaller size.

2.)  The Bollinger is available in flat G (think G/Gb quarter tone) and Gb only.  G tuning is not available on the Bollinger model (at least not standard).  We can make a custom valve set with G tuning and then build tuning slides for that set in the other pitches you mentioned.  We could also do a valve set with similar lever geometry to the Bollinger but with G tuning on the second valve and whatever other slides one was interested in.  I should note that any valve section in a different tuning than standard would be a custom order only.

3.)  The vast majority of people play on a 2 leadpipe, no matter what the horn.  Next are the half sizes (1.5, 2.5) and then long lengths.  Some people do play 1 and 3, but they are more rare.

4.)  A lot of people like to try different leadpipe materials, but few play on them regularly.  Sterling geenrates the most interest, followed by gold brass and nickel.  When I first started at Shires, I would sometimes recommend a different material for variety's sake.  Since then I've learned more specific situations when a leadpipe material shift might be appropriate.  Even in those instances, and adjustment elsewhere on the instrument usually yields better results.

I hope that helps!

Quote from: Euphoni on Jun 01, 2015, 06:57PMCan someone please talk about the 2R bell.  Their experiences with it, pros/cons, etc.  Good orchestral bell?

Thanks!

It can be a good orchestral bell, but it is a rare choice these days.  The 2R needs to be set up with the right components to balance it well.  In general, red bells have a larger tonal palette than other materials, adding a lot more brilliance at louder dynamics and int he upper register and sounding much darker at lower dynamics and softer dynamics.  This tonal shift has largely fallen out of favor with the typical American orchestral player, who favor more tonal stability throughout registers and dynamics than red brass typically offers.  The 2R is also a standard weight bell, which is a bit heavier than most people want. It is not typical of American orchestras and I have only seen two in my time at Shires (and one was a repair!).


But, there are lots of variables. 

The rest of the horn can be set up in a way that gets the most out of the characteristics that a particular customer wants.  The player could also be playing in an ensemble or hall that would be very well suited to this specific bell (our gold and red brass bells continue to do very well with many of our European dealers).  And then there's the player: the greatest variable of them all.  Certain players may be looking for this exact set-up.  I would need to hear them in person and listen to other set-ups to come to this conclusion, but it is not outside the realm of possibility.

Caveat over, my general conclusion is that this is an excellent bell for someone desiring a solid feel paired with a wide tonal palette with little middle of the road, "typical" trombone sound.

I hope that helps.

Ben

Quote from: CRWV1987 on Jun 01, 2015, 02:44PM3, do you find any consistency regarding leadpipe choice? (tight or open for a player using an open mouthpiece, tight vs open for an open or tight horn, etc.,.)

I did find, on bass, that when I was using a 1.5 size mouthpiece, a more open leadpipe balanced the sound better.  I liked the Kanstul Minick OL a bit better for me the than the Shires B3.  Now I'm on a bigger mouthpiece, and the Shires B2 is just right.

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 02, 2015, 02:22PMIt can be a good orchestral bell, but it is a rare choice these days.  The 2R needs to be set up with the right components to balance it well.  In general, red bells have a larger tonal palette than other materials, adding a lot more brilliance at louder dynamics and int he upper register and sounding much darker at lower dynamics and softer dynamics.  This tonal shift has largely fallen out of favor with the typical American orchestral player, who favor more tonal stability throughout registers and dynamics than red brass typically offers.  The 2R is also a standard weight bell, which is a bit heavier than most people want. It is not typical of American orchestras and I have only seen two in my time at Shires (and one was a repair!).


But, there are lots of variables. 

The rest of the horn can be set up in a way that gets the most out of the characteristics that a particular customer wants.  The player could also be playing in an ensemble or hall that would be very well suited to this specific bell (our gold and red brass bells continue to do very well with many of our European dealers).  And then there's the player: the greatest variable of them all.  Certain players may be looking for this exact set-up.  I would need to hear them in person and listen to other set-ups to come to this conclusion, but it is not outside the realm of possibility.

Caveat over, my general conclusion is that this is an excellent bell for someone desiring a solid feel paired with a wide tonal palette with little middle of the road, "typical" trombone sound.

I hope that helps.

Ben





Something I've always wondered.. would a thicker gauge of red brass compensate at all for the amount/type of vibration that kind of metal gives off? (does that make sense?) Meaning, does it take more to get a little edge on a thicker red brass bell?  or does it get that sizzle with the same ease, but a different sounding sizzle?

Btw, the accompanying set up would be

-2R
-Dual Bore Rotor (nickel rotor)
-TW47
-Gold TS
-1.5L leadpipe