TromboneChat

I got the impression that not many horns were moving at ATW a few years back. A few dozen of one model? Hmmmm

"...on vacation at ATW ...."

That's a good one...

Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic the Conn valve is probably going to play more open on the Bach than one of Bach's stock rotors?

Hobart wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 4:00 pm Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic the Conn valve is probably going to play more open on the Bach than one of Bach's stock rotors?

I love the irony as well. Also, greetings from the other side of the state!

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 4:04 pm

Hobart wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 4:00 pm Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic the Conn valve is probably going to play more open on the Bach than one of Bach's stock rotors?

I love the irony as well. Also, greetings from the other side of the state!

Not a surprise to me at all. Bach used the same rotor on the 36 and 42. It's great on the 36 but is woefully small on the 42. It's the reason we have the Thayer and all those other newer valves. Conn had a larger valve on the 88H, as did King on the 4B, Holton on all their horns, Yamaha on their large bore horns, etc. I never thought about valve size with my King 4B -- it just worked.

Hobart wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 4:00 pm Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic the Conn valve is probably going to play more open on the Bach than one of Bach's stock rotors?

The Conn rotor always played more open than the post Mt. Vernon/extremely early Elkhart (Marsden) 42 valve.
The Conn Rotor used now is a descendant of the King/Benge rotor that first appeared on the 88h during the UMI era. But even the old Elkhart/Abilene 88h rotor played more open than that Selmer era designed 42 valve.

I'm not sure how that would be "ironic" in any case

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 6:30 pm I'm not sure how that would be "ironic" in any case

I took it as "to open up the blow on a Bach, put on a Conn valve", which I agree with.

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:30 am

I took it as "to open up the blow on a Bach, put on a Conn valve", which I agree with.

I mean, it is a bit strange, but "ironic?"

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:34 am

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:30 am I took it as "to open up the blow on a Bach, put on a Conn valve", which I agree with.

I mean, it is a bit strange, but "ironic?"

I believe this is what Aristotle termed the Morissette Conundrum

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:51 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:34 am

I mean, it is a bit strange, but "ironic?"

I believe this is what Aristotle termed the Morissette Conundrum

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:34 am

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:30 am

I took it as "to open up the blow on a Bach, put on a Conn valve", which I agree with.

I mean, it is a bit strange, but "ironic?"

It's the opposite of what you'd expect, the line Conn-Selmer pushes the most has to borrow parts from the underdog Conn, which they've gutted in the last few years, to make a well-playing horn.

I'm wondering why they didn't do this sooner. It wouldn't be hard to make the stock 42 play a little bit better by replacing the smaller Bach rotor with correct-sized ones they make for other trombones finished in the same shop as Bach.

Well, at the time the 88H Gen 2 was designed and released, it was the top dog at Conn-Selmer.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 12:18 am Well, at the time the 88H Gen 2 was designed and released, it was the top dog at Conn-Selmer.

An extra impressive feat given that Conn-Selmer didn't even exist at the time

spencercarran wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:03 am [quote=Burgerbob post_id=148989 time=<a href="tel:1621664283">1621664283</a> user_id=3131]
Well, at the time the 88H Gen 2 was designed and released, it was the top dog at Conn-Selmer.

An extra impressive feat given that Conn-Selmer didn't even exist at the time
[/quote]


I believe at the time it was still UMI. What I would like to know from those who were around back when the Gen II came out:

Did they make a lasting impression in the USA? Was that considered an instrument usable in the professional scene ? What were the reactions to its release/relaunch ?

I graduated from college in 2014 and I do not need 5 fingers to count the people I met in professional settings using Conns here. In Germany I met a few people who use the GENII but it is not super common.

The GenII I got in 2004 is awesome. I know many who used them in a professional setting but really the Shires and Edwards are dominant. Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money) Edwards (they like how they play), or Rath (see Edwards)

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:11 pm The GenII I got in 2004 is awesome. I know many who used them in a professional setting but really the Shires and Edwards are dominant. Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money) Edwards (they like how they play), or Rath (see Edwards)

Pretty sure John Sipher in Utah plays one currently.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:11 pm Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money)

I would love to hear even one instance of this happening

tombone21 wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 7:24 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:11 pm Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money)

I would love to hear even one instance of this happening

Ralph Sauer

tombone21 wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 7:24 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:11 pm Most of those who were known to play Conn are on Shires (money)

I would love to hear even one instance of this happening

I don't think it's fair that you left out the rest of the quote. There are even more who dipped out to go to Edwards and Rath. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I believe (but don’t know for sure) that the San Diego Symphony section has a history of using Conns, I believe the Lindberg version though.

I’m pretty sure in that video, Ralph Sauer details how his horn came to be. Shires wasn’t his first choice. He approached Conn after his 8H bell got crunched for a 2nd time and they refused to develop some sort of Connprimise with Sauer. I believe Ian Bousfield also approached Conn about developing an artist model, with the same results.

I only used half your quote because of the way you posit that players could only be drawn to Shires for financial reasons, when they have by far the largest roster of artists and the top players coming from both sides of the Bach-Conn spectrum. Edwards can keep blowing their xenophobic dog whistle with their “eVeRy PaRt mAdE iN tHe UsA” rhetoric on social media while their players continue to move over to Shires. Whatever you gotta do to stay relevant I guess, it must be a business thing I could never possibly understand.

tombone21 wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 12:24 pm I’m pretty sure in that video, Ralph Sauer details how his horn came to be. Shires wasn’t his first choice. He approached Conn after his 8H bell got crunched for a 2nd time and they refused to develop some sort of Connprimise with Sauer.

So, oddly enough, they DID do a bunch of work with Ralph to make a custom instrument. I have played one of the prototypes (a forum member owns it) and it's an AMAZING horn. I'm not exactly sure why the project fell through in the end.

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:35 pmI believe at the time it was still UMI. What I would like to know from those who were around back when the Gen II came out:

Did they make a lasting impression in the USA? Was that considered an instrument usable in the professional scene ? What were the reactions to its release/relaunch ?

I graduated from college in 2014 and I do not need 5 fingers to count the people I met in professional settings using Conns here. In Germany I met a few people who use the GENII but it is not super common.

By the time Gen II hit the market in the mid-90s the boutique/custom makers were probably grabbing enough attention from orchestral pros. I believe UMI (and later Conn-Selmer) were always primarily focused on the "advanced student" market. Most of my high school were on Gen II Conns.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 1:29 pm

tombone21 wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 12:24 pm I’m pretty sure in that video, Ralph Sauer details how his horn came to be. Shires wasn’t his first choice. He approached Conn after his 8H bell got crunched for a 2nd time and they refused to develop some sort of Connprimise with Sauer.

So, oddly enough, they DID do a bunch of work with Ralph to make a custom instrument. I have played one of the prototypes (a forum member owns it) and it's an AMAZING horn. I'm not exactly sure why the project fell through in the end.

It feel through because Eastman also made him an amazing horn and put his name on it. That company is very good at attracting talent.

What would you rather have, a beautiful horn that meets all your specifications, has your name on it, has a nice custom case, and gives you a $50 (total guess) kickback every time someone buys one? Or a one off prototype that is amazing and probably won't become an artist model line because you don't have 90 solo CDs?

I don't know that Yamaha gives kickbacks. Walt Barrett used to say that even though he was a Yamaha Artist, he didn't get any special deals on instruments.

Probably the only benefit would be sponsorship to music events.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 4:15 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 1:29 pm

So, oddly enough, they DID do a bunch of work with Ralph to make a custom instrument. I have played one of the prototypes (a forum member owns it) and it's an AMAZING horn. I'm not exactly sure why the project fell through in the end.

It feel through because Eastman also made him an amazing horn and put his name on it. That company is very good at attracting talent

Pretty sure the Sauer horn was developed before the Eastman purchase.

UMI/Conn Selmer has had an up and down relationship with developing artist horns; most famously, JJ Johnson called UMI in the mid 80’s to get a new horn when he was about to do his comeback; apparently no one at UMI seemed to know who he was or that he had been a King endorser/player for nearly 30 years and didn’t accommodate him. Yamaha was happy to oblige and give him whatever he wanted.

In the ensuing years, they have had Jiggs Wigham, Christian Lindberg, Massimo LaRosa and now Peter Steiner as endorsing artists with special models, so it’s obvious they are mindful of artist relations.
Conn-Selmer is in a different situation than Edwards or Shires: they are mostly legacy brands that players professional and non professional have certain associations and expectations. They really can’t change the 42 or the 88h that much before they are no longer representative of those designs. Aside from the specific Alessi and Sauer models and a couple of others, Shires is mostly offering their modular options, which is kind of the point of their business model, isn’t it? After all, what is the “Shires sound” or the “Edwards sound” anyway? Joe Alessi sounds pretty close on his Shires to how he sounded on his Edwards, )I assume he worked with them to make a horn that sounded pretty similar to his Edwards), but he sounds very different than when he was playing his Bach. Of course, much of that is probably attributable to his evolution as a player. There are so many variations and options with the modular brands, it might be a little harder to define a brand sound than with Bach or Conn.

Is the front bell brace on this in a different position? It looks closer than a 42B, but not as close as a 42.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:26 pm Is the front bell brace on this in a different position? It looks closer than a 42B, but not as close as a 42.

Cheers,
Andy

Same as A47 spacing

StevenHolloway wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 3:18 pm IMO Steiner made the wrong move switching to Bach just like Alessi made the wrong move switching to Shires. Maybe it was a better business deal, but it wasn’t a better deal for their sounds...

https://tchaikovskycompetition.com/en/news/313.htm
Well, perhaps Peter noticed that Aleksey Lobikov plays a Bach?

I tend to agree that Peter's sound with Thein had a special and expressive quality that hasn't appeared yet in his recordings using Bach horns. But, as long as our top trombone representatives keep creating, sharing, and commissioning great music, I'm happy! On that note, I recommend everyone check out both Peter's and Aleksey's fantastic performances from the 2019 Tchaikovsky competition (videos are posted on youtube), if you haven't yet.

As for the Bach Artisan trombones, I'm excited to try some of their new options. Bach seems determined to produce their best trombones yet as a brand - lets all just hope it comes true!
Even so, Bach's top-shelf Artisan line pricing definitely makes it difficult to choose Bach when we can spend similar money to instead commission a master craftsman like Matthew at M&W to build a custom horn of similar specs that is assembled with unsurpassed precision, care, and expertise. I personally appreciate and try to support that kind of expertise, especially since the value of our profession as musicians is tied to this premise.

This is the A47X with the new F-attachment, differing from the Steiner model only in the bell. Fixed brass vs. LW gold brass with screw flare.

Got to try one of these at the fmea conference and was really disappointed. Sound wasn’t that great and response was a little dull, even worse on the screw bell model. Valve was kinda stuffy, not super stuffy but not that easy to get in and out of the valve register.

I tried the Steiner model the other day at Schmidt Music. Apparently they already have a buyer for it. The horn seemed great, but it wasn't for me. It was pretty heavy. Also I have big hands, but that horn has the smallest space for the left hand that I can remember ever trying. The linkage basically was resting on the back of my thumb. The horn did sound great. And it was really open feeling while playing. To open for me though.

I can see while people will like it. But I just ordered a custom Shires and it was cheaper than this ones msrp. For that price I would go Shires or Edwards any day if the week, but that's just my opinion.

I played thee Steiner models today at The FMEA Conference in Tampa.
1 Gold brass bell with screw Bell option
1 yellow brass bell -no screw bell option
These were 2 of the most vibrant horns I`ve ever played
The sound was nice & dark but it lit up when needed.
You could feel the horn vibrate in your hands while you played it.
Easy upper range.. The case looked like a Cronkite Travel bag, the 2 piece model, Leather and denim
This was one of the best .547 horns I`ve ever played. That`s just my opinion

If it makes any difference, wycliffe apparently had close to the same remarks about response. He actually preferred the intermediate that was on the far right, can’t remember the model number.

I fell in love with the shires chicago model that was on display. And changed my mind about the shires euphonium, i really enjoyed it. That new conn 88h is also amazing, great response and a lovely singing high range, sound was great but not really for me.