Shires pre-bankruptcy?

[Dennis]

And Dennis, you're correct on some of your suppositions but not others.

Steve's role under the Eastman ownership was not administrative, yes. It was R&D and artist relations. I don't think he had much to do with the euphoniums, though I'm not sure about that. The last big project he worked on was the Alessi model, which was finalized and introduced shortly before he left.

During the time I was working there - and managing aspects of the production schedule - bells were never the bottleneck to my memory. Valve sections - which are much more complicated to manufacture - were most often what we were waiting for to get instruments out the door.

Steve is now living in Vermont, where he has a basement workshop in his home. He's building French horns under the name Stephens Horns, and because he is a single-man shop he's outsourcing many parts, many of which are made to his specification for his designs. His non-compete clause for trumpets and trombones has just expired, and he is gearing up to make trombones in a similar fashion. He actually subbed into the Vermont Symphony with me in December, playing a trombone that he finished assembling just a couple of days before. He sounded great on it.

Thanks for the correction, Gabe.

I'd forgotten that Shires made their valves in-house. That is unusual in a small-scale manufacturer. Even Vincent Bach didn't make rotary valves in-house until the move to Elkhart. I'm not sure if Bach built their own piston valve blocks prior to Elkhart or not.

[Bach5G]

So I want to buy a Shires trombone. Do I buy a new S.E. Shires Co. Inc Joseph Alessi model or do I buy a “Steve’s Trombone”?

[Posaunus]

So I want to buy a Shires trombone. Do I buy a new S.E. Shires Co. Inc Joseph Alessi model or do I buy a “Steve’s Trombone”?

Perhaps it depends on whether you want it soon, or are willing to wait a year or two and pay $6,000-$8,000+ for one of Steve's new creations.
I bet it'll play like a dream!

[Bach5G]

So I want to buy a Shires trombone. Do I buy a new S.E. Shires Co. Inc Joseph Alessi model or do I buy a “Steve’s Trombone”?

Perhaps it depends on whether you want it soon, or are willing to wait a year or two and pay $6,000-$8,000+ for one of Steve's new creations.
I bet it'll play like a dream!

Assume $5750, roughly on par with an Alessi/Shires, a bit more than M&W, and an 8 month wait vs. off-the-shelf.

[Posaunus]

Perhaps it depends on whether you want it soon, or are willing to wait a year or two and pay $6,000-$8,000+ for one of Steve's new creations. I bet it'll play like a dream!

Assume $5750, roughly on par with an Alessi/Shires, a bit more than M&W, and an 8 month wait vs. off-the-shelf.

You got a quote from Steve?

If I had the $$$, and if I had a place to play it (and if I were a better trombonist), I wouldn't hesitate to place an order. These trombones will become collector's items!

[Bach5G]

No. “Assume”. I estimated $5750 after looking at prices from Shires and M&W (who, I think, are also running a small shop building their own designs). For discussion purposes.

[JohnL]

That's a classic look; like something from the 1920's.

Or is it actually from the 1920's? Was any information posted beyond what's seen here?

[Burgerbob]

He's posted a couple other things as well. It's all his make.

[ArtL]

That's a neat instrument; TIS, bow guard, nice wrap, what looks to be a very large throated bell (maybe it is just the lighting). Clever placement of the bow over the valve...

[TheBoneRanger]

Assume $5750, roughly on par with an Alessi/Shires, a bit more than M&W, and an 8 month wait vs. off-the-shelf.

Predicting the price and lead time for a product that we haven’t even seen yet. The forum at its best!!

Andrew

[harrisonreed]

The french horns are over $10k, I believe. That might give you a ballpark on the trombones

[CalgaryTbone]

The french horns are over $10k, I believe. That might give you a ballpark on the trombones

A lot of professional model French Horns go for over $10,000. They are almost always more expensive than comparable trombones.

Jim Scott

[Bach5G]

https://store.paxman.co.uk/paxman-model ... 2x19419194

$10,800 USD.

A Conn 8D about half that at B&W. An 88H is about $3200.

[JohnL]

That's a neat instrument; TIS, bow guard, nice wrap, what looks to be a very large throated bell (maybe it is just the lighting). Clever placement of the bow over the valve...

I don't think the intent was to hide the valve. It looks like the same horn he played for a video posted to the Stephens Custom Horns Facebook page, and there's no attempt to hide the valve there.

It looks a lot like a 1920's 14H or 70H. Most of us have to be content with dreaming of owning an instrument like that or, if we're lucky, buying a vintage one and living with the quirks, both original and age-related. Steve Shires, on the other hand, just sits down at his workbench and builds a whole new instrument.

[harrisonreed]

The french horns are over $10k, I believe. That might give you a ballpark on the trombones

A lot of professional model French Horns go for over $10,000. They are almost always more expensive than comparable trombones.

Jim Scott

Yes, exactly. So, by extrapolation, you take the cost of, say a Conn 8D vs an 88H ($5300 vs $3200), and you might get an idea of what Steve is charging for that trombone. I wasn't trying to imply that the trombone would cost the same as his horn.

Should be about $6100, using that method.

[jjenkins]

I'd forgotten that Shires made their valves in-house. That is unusual in a small-scale manufacturer. Even Vincent Bach didn't make rotary valves in-house until the move to Elkhart. I'm not sure if Bach built their own piston valve blocks prior to Elkhart or not.

Matthew Walker (M&W) manufactures his valves in-house, too.

[slipmo]

I will end the speculation for everyone. This is in fact a Stephen's trombone, model Brass Ark, a collaboration between the two of us. It is based on one of my 1916 Conn Symphony models and my 14H and was inspired by both of these trombones and I can say that the sonic DNA of both are captured well in this new creation. The bell and branch are red brass while the body tubing is phosphor bronze. The valve is a new Caidex rotary.

This particular "Brass Ark model" will be available in bell tuning or tuning in the slide versions.

Production will be limited. Stephen's trombones will be available at The Brass Ark. I will post an update there soon with pricing and specs/models available.

[Posaunus]

I will end the speculation for everyone. This is in fact a Stephen's trombone, model Brass Ark, a collaboration between the two of us.

It's beautiful, Noah. Great visual representation of Steve Shires' craftsmanship. Congratulations to both of you.

I presume no "E-pull?"

[slipmo]

indeed, No E pull on this one. If someone really wanted E, we could make one of those cool coiled tuning slides like on some old Conn models with similar wraps.

Thank you!

[Posaunus]

If someone really wanted E, we could make one of those cool coiled tuning slides like on some old Conn models with similar wraps.

Thank you!

Noah,

I like that it's now "we!" You and Steve will make great partners. A creative force, for sure. Can't wait to see what's next!

[LowBrassJunkie]

Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.

Yeeeeeeah, that's a bad take.

[Burgerbob]

[LowBrassJunkie]

Its incredible how many people on this forum have the audacity to hop on here and spew as much nonsense as they do. A slim number of people here have actually worked for a trombone manufacturer of any size, yet many of you speak as though you have the full picture because of something you read online, or from what you overheard at a convention. Until you are a part of the daily operations, business decisions, manufacturing decisions, or even choosing what case to use, you don't get to state many of the things being written here as fact.

You DON'T know what happens behind closed doors during artist negotiations. You DON'T know why a financial decision is made, and just because one brand is stenciling another does not "put them in their pocket", its just a business transaction. Its fair to argue about what era of production is best from a brand, because that is subjective. But this conversation is too over the top with misinformation and bad takes to be taken seriously without actual fact from the source themselves. And that's the problem, someone is going to read something here and believe it as fact.

Brands come and go, thats the way the world works. There will be big ones, and there will be small ones.

And on top of that, the blatant hypocrisy alone is something to marvel at. But that's for another time. Go practice.

[Bach5G]

“Blatant hypocrisy”?

[Jimkinkella]

It's almost like Noah loves old Conns....
Fantastic nickel bowguard!

To the original question, if it works for you, play it.

I remember Harley Davidson being owned by a bowling ball / nuclear reactor / cigarette company.
There are still some amazing bikes from that era.

If a particular technician / artist's vibe is your thing, go for it.
I've played some Minicks that I just didn't like.
Some of his other horns were fantastic.

Every piece is a little different.
Some things are a bit more consistent than others (to Gabe's comment on the guy spinning bells) (or a particular machine shop spinning and polishing mouthpieces) but for better or worse all of these things are a bit different than the next.
There are no Bach 5G pieces the same as the next.

The Chinese shops are capable of amazing work, it's all about what someone is asking them to do.

For students it's reasonable to recommend a decent to good larger manufacturer, but as individuals that tend to like weird stuff, gotta play the thing in person.
My opinion only

If you dig a horn, buy it!
If you don't, don't.

[ZacharyThornton]

Its incredible how many people on this forum have the audacity to hop on here and spew as much nonsense as they do. A slim number of people here have actually worked for a trombone manufacturer of any size, yet many of you speak as though you have the full picture because of something you read online, or from what you overheard at a convention. Until you are a part of the daily operations, business decisions, manufacturing decisions, or even choosing what case to use, you don't get to state many of the things being written here as fact.

You DON'T know what happens behind closed doors during artist negotiations. You DON'T know why a financial decision is made, and just because one brand is stenciling another does not "put them in their pocket", its just a business transaction. Its fair to argue about what era of production is best from a brand, because that is subjective. But this conversation is too over the top with misinformation and bad takes to be taken seriously without actual fact from the source themselves. And that's the problem, someone is going to read something here and believe it as fact.

Brands come and go, thats the way the world works. There will be big ones, and there will be small ones.

And on top of that, the blatant hypocrisy alone is something to marvel at. But that's for another time. Go practice.

What are your qualifications to say others know nothing? You are anonymous, do you know how the music retail business works?
Not saying I know everything, but I have been in it for almost two decades from all the sides. But I am smart enough to be myself and say nothing.

[harrisonreed]

Its incredible how many people on this forum have the audacity to hop on here and spew as much nonsense as they do. A slim number of people here have actually worked for a trombone manufacturer of any size, yet many of you speak as though you have the full picture because of something you read online, or from what you overheard at a convention. Until you are a part of the daily operations, business decisions, manufacturing decisions, or even choosing what case to use, you don't get to state many of the things being written here as fact.

Said the person who doesn't know where to order a valve paddle from.

Look, this whole thread is nonsense. I took my jab only because I've seen Shires go from marketing trombones through word of mouth and shop visits, to hour long "interviews" with professionals that amount to flogging Q series horns. I don't think China taking over brass development from one of the best in the business is a good thing because the innovation will eventually stop. It hasn't happened yet, but that's where it's pointing.

Shires makes great trombones. If the advertisements are to be believed, the Q series are Chinese made/partially made copies that are just as good as the best Shires trombones. I think it's still permissible in society to not be happy about that.

[Bach5G]

I don’t think innovation is going to stop because Eastman bought SE Shires Co Inc. out of bankruptcy.

[harrisonreed]

I don’t think innovation is going to stop because Eastman bought SE Shires Co Inc. out of bankruptcy.

You caught me as I was editing my post to qualify that. It hasn't happened yet. We got the twin valve, for sure (whoopee). It may never happen. In perfect world, we get better and better Q models, until they are indistinguishable from the custom horns other than the massive discount. And then, seriously, why would you buy a custom series? I don't doubt that they will become indistinguishable. But how can that be a good thing for innovation?

[Bach5G]

But, meanwhile, as SE Shires Co Inc perfect their Q series, makers like Getzen/Edwards, M&W, Rath, Instrument Innovations, Willson and others will continue to innovate. Shires may become like Yamaha.

[Burgerbob]

But, meanwhile, as SE Shires Co Inc perfect their Q series, makers like Getzen/Edwards, M&W, Instrument Innovations, Willson and others will continue to innovate.

Or go out of business, like usually happens.

[Bach5G]

To be replaced by new innovators. Remember in the late 80s, Bach and Conn were pretty much the only game in town. The trend over the past 40 years has been towards innovation not the opposite.

[GabrielRice]

Why so much darkness?

Eastman purchased the Haynes flute company, which had stagnated into near irrelevance after being one of the great American flute makers decades ago. They poured money into the business, buying new equipment, moving to a larger facility outside of Boston, and hiring some excellent designers. Haynes is back. Professional flutists are taking them seriously again.

So far Eastman has a better record of respecting the brands they buy and invest in than other companies that have done the same.

Q series are not just cheaper versions of the custom series made elsewhere. There are design and material differences, though the modular framework is compatible.

As I said before, this is nearly identical to the incredibly successful model of Fender/Squier guitars and basses. 3-4 price point ranges based on the same design concepts with quite a lot of parts compatibility between them, so that you can bring in customers at various stages of their careers and aspirations. And while Fender dominates the market - in a way that Shires/Eastman is not even approaching - there is plenty of worthy competition.

[GabrielRice]

And then, also like Fender, the founder and original innovator of the company is no longer there and is continuing his R&D under a different name. Maybe he will move on from Stephens Horns at some point and start a third company...also like Leo Fender...who left us some more iconic designs at Ernie Ball/Music Man and then G&L.

[ZacharyThornton]

I think you are too close to see why some people are scared Mr. Rice. You are an amazing musician and person that I respect you greatly.

[Matt K]

Had to move a post. Warned the user. We do not allow specific, targeted name calling. Please keep it civil.

[ZacharyThornton]

Oof. Did someone do something that dumb?

[WilliamLang]

it does feel like shires is trying to corner the market a little (getting the young and rising players early, co-opting some of the summer festivals) but that's what companies do. also, in the end, it's trombones. there are more than enough good horns already existing in the world to let basically everyone have something close to what they want. i'm more curious what people do with them then what the horns actually are.

with that said, i have a really really old shires red brass bell that i love very much and will never get rid of, unless my kid wants to seriously play trombone in the future!

[Tbarh]

I will end the speculation for everyone. This is in fact a Stephen's trombone, model Brass Ark, a collaboration between the two of us. It is based on one of my 1916 Conn Symphony models and my 14H and was inspired by both of these trombones and I can say that the sonic DNA of both are captured well in this new creation. The bell and branch are red brass while the body tubing is phosphor bronze. The valve is a new Caidex rotary.

This particular "Brass Ark model" will be available in bell tuning or tuning in the slide versions.

Production will be limited. Stephen's trombones will be available at The Brass Ark. I will post an update there soon with pricing and specs/models available.

Wow... This is exciting News.. I have a couple of questions.. My 1920 large symphony has a bigger taper than later 8H/88H's... Will this Model also have this taper?.. The Big brace at the back is not original to similar old Conns... How does that "come in to play"?.. The opera wheel is back??

Trond

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, what was that about innovation? STEVE is still at it. The Stephen's trombone looks cool! I'm curious about the specs on the bell and the slide. "Steve post-bankruptcy" is more like it.

[Matt K]

Also an interesting consideration is how popular horns are that have no innovation by definition, because they were made 60-90 years ago.

Also how there hasn't been mention of Butler, which [ur=https://thelasttrombone.com/2018/11/20/ ... not-a-toy/]Doug Yeo[/url] indicated:

We are witnessing one of the most significant developments in trombone design and manufacturing since the invention of the F-attachment in 1839.

Frankly, in my opinion, trombone actually has an absurd amount of innovation relative to other instruments. There isn't a company making trumpets, for example, with modular setups with 4 piston alternatives, for example. Ironically, the french horn was originally the target of the thayer valve but we hoovered that up too!

[Kbiggs]

Also an interesting consideration is how popular horns are that have no innovation by definition, because they were made 60-90 years ago.

[Bach5G]

Assume $5750, roughly on par with an Alessi/Shires, a bit more than M&W, and an 8 month wait vs. off-the-shelf.

Predicting the price and lead time for a product that we haven’t even seen yet. The forum at its best!!

Andrew

Did you not read “assume”? Did you miss “Fir discussion purposes”?

Weighing in on a post you misread, misunderstood, or simply ignored. The forum at its best!!

[TheBoneRanger]

Predicting the price and lead time for a product that we haven’t even seen yet. The forum at its best!!

Andrew

Did you not read “assume”? Did you miss “Fir discussion purposes”?

Weighing in on a post you misread, misunderstood, or simply ignored. The forum at its best!!

Assume does not mean “guess.”

“For discussion purposes” does not imply “unless you disagree with my thoughts.”

Andrew

[CTBrass]

This is an interesting discussion, for sure. It’s very easy these days to become preoccupied with equipment and the various innovations and multitude of options. However, I know and have played many times with someone who plays in two symphony orchestras, and honestly has one of the best sounds I’ve ever heard and he plays an Elkhart Conn 88H. Huge beautiful sound despite the stereotype that conns can get “edgy” when played at louder volumes. It’s interesting to pursue all of these options and innovations, but at the end of the day as someone else stated here, the only think that matters is finding a horn that speaks to you, and then pursuing excellence with it.

[Posaunus]

I absolutely agree with CTbrass. You can produce a marvelous sound with almost any "professional" level trombone - especially a Conn 88H !

We all have different preferences; it's up to us to find the equipment that works for us, and to make the best of it.

[CheeseTray]

An important fact that hangs in the background regarding the health and ongoing viability of these high-end instrument/equipment businesses is the size of the market for custom horns and mouthpieces. That market is too small and too large at the same time. Certainly, it is small enough to significantly inhibit the economies of scale necessary to keep pricing competitive while meeting demand. The market is too large because, in its start-up form, a shop cannot always afford to purchase precision machinery to scale up production, or alternatively, have a large enough income stream to afford top level craftsmen capable of executing production by hand.

These businesses rise to prominence because of the masterful quality of their builds, but then quickly hit a wall in their ability to meet the demand created by the quality of their work (and the buzz it generates). The business owner is now in the position of being profitable - but not profitable enough to hire (and/or train) other artisans to meet burgeoning demand. (The fact that Steve Shires felt the need to personally spin bells to meet his brand standard illustrates this point.) Eventually, the shop gets perennially behind on filling orders and community grousing and dissatisfaction ensues. (Think Shires, Greg Black, etc.) Edwards dodged this bullet by growing out of Getzen; an established mass production company with the resources to support a custom off-shoot and an experienced, built-in management team to foster its growth.

But most custom brands don't begin this way. Ultimately, they get 'hung' by a market big enough to exceed the capacity of a cottage industry sized business, but too small to support any real scaling up, and then end up languishing between the proverbial rock and hard place without viable options.

The commercial environment is a mismatch of the level of skill required to create a superior, labor-intensive-to-produce product; the size of the market consuming it; and the base pricing expectations set by readily available, mass-produced alternatives (which, though not as good, are certainly suitable for most of the consumer base.)

Professional players will always modify instruments to suit them, but as a market, they alone are too small to drive significant investment and development of new products - they stick with what works once they get it because reliability is everything to a professional; if you trust it, stick with it. However, the models developed for them and their endorsements drive the second order demand (by students, avocational players with disposable income, and high-performing amateurs) large enough to justify production. Sadly, there just aren't many reasonable options available for a small business to grow into the right-sized sweet spot.

I suspect Doug Elliott would be able to offer some interesting insights on all of this as a result of negotiating this terrain for so long. I've heard that talented precision machinists are rare birds that come with a high price.

[Posaunus]

Excellent analysis, CheeseTray.

[MrHCinDE]

CheeseTray, there are certainly enough examples which have gone the way you describe so I’d agree with your analysis in those cases and that what you describe can, and does, occur.

On the other hand, I’d like to be optimistic that there is still a chance for small to medium high quality makers.

What are your thoughts on the likes of Rath, Thein, Lawler, Schmelzer, Kromat, Inderbinen, Schagerl etc.? What future do you see for them? Are they and others all doomed in the long run in your view?

One problem could be that some, but not all, may struggle in the long term if they are very reliant on a small number (perhaps even one or two!) of individual craftsmen but even in those cases, until those craftsmen retire without passing their knowledge on I would like to think that they will carry on making and selling quality products without reaching the point of customer dissatisfaction. Hopefully many of them have or will also pass their knowledge on to the next generation so they can keep those companies going or go on to form their own companies in the future.

Some of the examples I listed are priced very much at the higher end, but still seem to be selling horns so there seems to be enough market to sustain them. Others are actually not that much more expensive than the ‘professional’ models from the larger scale competitors.

[Bach5G]

I’m waiting for the day Eastman buys King/Conn/Bach.

Maybe the future is Eastman and Yamaha on one hand and a bunch of small makers (Steve Shires, Mick Rath. Matthew Walker and others) on the other.