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Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:23 pm
by quiethorn
Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:13 am
Just measured; it's 3 1/8" (3.125") or 79.375 mm for the 356 slide I have.
Incidentally, the 356 is not as small as people think it is. Its very much a "medium" bore style instrument. The tuning slide is identical to the 548 I have, well at least they are interchangeable. They might not literally be identical. Same with the 646/645 slide I have. I don't know if the taper is different but I don't really notice a difference when I swap them out. The throat on the bell is larger than the Shires I have, although not by much. With some judicious buffing, I might be able to fit the Yamaha slide in the Shires receiver. It is narrower though, by a small amount.
THe bell itself is very Bach 36 like, although without the soldered bell bead. A bit on the heavy side too. A King 3B+ is likely to be substantially brighter than it even though it has a larger upper slide tube. But I don't have one to compare. The valve, as someone else measured awhile ago for me, is 547 though, so a touch smaller than the 36 valve, but possibly without the weird things Bach did with chokepoints etc.
The 356 slide on my YSL548 is really nice. A tad heavier/more covered than I'd prefer. But certainly a wonderful medium bore style instrument for someone looking for something lighter than a large bore but perhaps not as light as a small bore instrument.
This is awesome info. Thanks a lot. I'm perpetually in the market for a .525 (or in this case, .500/.525) horn. I don't have the money, time or space to be trying stuff out constantly, so getting good info like this is much appreciated. I always assumed the 356 was basically a 354 with an F-attachment and dual-bore slide.
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 pm
by Matt K
Yeah I kind of wish it were. I think it would be a good F small F attachment contender for the 3BF which is really the only stock horn I’m aware of with F attachment for that size.
I’m actually selling my 646 slide and the 356 bell. Feel free to pm me and I can get you the details pics etc. I have one other person who might be interested too that I have to respond to.
I could possibly be convinced to sell the 356 slide too… I quite like the 3BF I’ve found. Have some other assorted medium bore parts too.
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:51 pm
by JLivi
quiethorn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:23 pm
This is awesome info. Thanks a lot. I'm perpetually in the market for a .525 (or in this case, .500/.525) horn. I don't have the money, time or space to be trying stuff out constantly, so getting good info like this is much appreciated. I always assumed the 356 was basically a 354 with an F-attachment and dual-bore slide.
I know the Yamaha 356 has a good rep on this forum. I finally got the chance to try one out at a local music store. In my opinion this store has it over priced at $1000, but man can that horn play. I've played medium bore horns that play bigger than this one, but I was impressed with it. I don't have a use for it, but if I was looking for a budget horn with a valve, this is definitely one that would be at the top of my list. I only played it for about 10 minutes, so I didn't get a true feel for the horn.
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:04 pm
by ithinknot
Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 pm
the 3BF which is really the only stock horn I’m aware of with F attachment for that size
FWIW
https://www.kuehnl-hoyer.de/produkt/b-f ... ier-512-f/
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:25 pm
by Matt K
Ooh interesting. If I can ever go out in public again to an ATW or ITF I'll have to see if anyone has one on display. The Olds... not ambassador (or is it?) that had a 500/.510 or something weird is also on my list of things to try at some point.
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:51 pm
by Posaunus
Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:25 pm
The Olds... not ambassador (or is it?) that had a 500/.510 or something weird is also on my list of things to try at some point.
You're thinking of an Olds
Recording R20 with F-attachment. 0.495"/0.510" dual bore with "duo-octagonal" (16-sided) slides. Made until about the end of Olds production in Fullerton, CA in 1979. If in good condition, these are very nice trombones!
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:09 pm
by BGuttman
Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:51 pm
Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:25 pm
The Olds... not ambassador (or is it?) that had a 500/.510 or something weird is also on my list of things to try at some point.
You're thinking of an Olds
Recording R20 with F-attachment. 0.495"/0.510" dual bore with "duo-octagonal" (16-sided) slides. Made until about the end of Olds production in Fullerton, CA in 1979. If in good condition, these are very nice trombones!
There is also the Ambassador A-20 and the SuperStar. Both with similar slides to the R-20. SuperStar was the intermediate.
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:41 pm
by Posaunus
BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:09 pm
There is also the Ambassador A-20 and the SuperStar. Both with similar slides to the R-20. SuperStar was the intermediate.
Bruce is, of course, right. The Olds
Ambassador A20 and
Superstar V20 were both F-attachment trombones with 0.495"/0.510" dual-bore cylindrical slides (which Olds termed "large-bore"). I should have known this – my first trombone, in 8th grade, was an
Ambassador A20! Only the
Recording had duo-octagonal inner slides.
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:47 pm
by MusicParkRidge
I realize that I'm arriving late to this party, but:
1. An important consideration for me is where I put my left thumb. I have great difficulty if the thumb is NOT around the bell brace, as in the King horns and only a few others.
2. I'm seeing a "Besson 737 USA" model on eBay, and I swear that it's a twin of a King 607. Is it possible that these are the same horn??
-John S.
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:57 pm
by Burgerbob
MusicParkRidge wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:47 pm
I realize that I'm arriving late to this party, but:
2. I'm seeing a "Besson 737 USA" model on eBay, and I swear that it's a twin of a King 607. Is it possible that these are the same horn??
-John S.
Yup, that's 100% a King. Same case even. Very good horns btw, I just sold my 607 but ended up picking up a 608 (same thing with a rose bell) a day later!
Re: step up .525 bores
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:21 pm
by BGuttman
If the Besson deal falls through, some other horns that may meet your ergonomic needs:
Holton TR-150 or TR-680 (TR-680 is a flat-wrap and won't make an E pull; TR-150 is more conventional and you can pull the attachment to E)
older King 4B and 5B, all King 3B or 3B Plus with F (2125F).
There are lots of devices to make a more conventional F-attachment trombone work like you need. The Rest Bar and Bullet Brace come to mind.