Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:23 pm

Quote from: BassBoneFL on Jun 23, 2015, 12:18PMHey Ben

Sorry I missed you yesterday at the factory. Steve, Sam and Jim were most hospitable in your absence. Was a fun visit. Valves are working like new, found a great leadpipe for my commercial set up, drove Sam crazy practicing all day, Gabe stopped by for some duets and Steve gave me some great beers for the trip home. All in all a great day.

Hope our paths cross soon.

H

I'm so sorry I missed you, it's always great seeing and hearing you! Glad that you were met with good hospitality and found some nice tweaks for your commercial set-up. Next time we meet the beers are on me!

Cheers,
Ben

ttf_slidemasterc · Post by **ttf_slidemasterc** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:04 pm

Quote from: sabutin on Jun 09, 2015, 10:24PMEconomics enter here. And time as well because as they say, time is money. Given total freedom to experiment I suppose that all talented players could come up "the perfect" equipment. But there is no total freedom. Even the richest trombonist in the world has to buckle down and prove the pudding in performance. If it fails...especially if his various attempts continue to fail...eventually that player is going to be replaced by someone whose choices are overall more successful.

So it goes.

Y'pays yer money and y'takes yer chances. Take too long? You lose. Rush it and fail? You lose again. Juuuusssst right? With any luck...you win.

Life on the free market.

Bet on it.

S.

So, when selecting a new instrument, is it better to satisfice or maximize? Satisfice as in come up with a horn that is good enough realizing that you will never be able to quite get it perfect.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:24 am

Quote from: slidemasterc on Jun 26, 2015, 01:04PM
So, when selecting a new instrument, is it better to satisfice or maximize? Satisfice as in come up with a horn that is good enough realizing that you will never be able to quite get it perfect.

Neither. It's best to come up with something that frees you to get on with the business of making music and improving the way YOU play the instrument. The flesh, thought and emotion parts of the equation are the ones that are never perfect, in the sense that they are always changing. Once you've settled on an instrument, it's perfect.

ttf_Babcockbone · Post by **ttf_Babcockbone** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:58 pm

I am recently a convert to Shires, and I love my horn! (Sadly I loved my old horn too. But thanks to Delta and the TSA its in trombone heaven)
My question is:

I have an Axial Flow valve on my horn because the Shires dealer I went to did not have any Trubore valves. I have played them on a friends horn and I find that valve to be superior (in my opinion and with the way that I play) to the Axial valve, not to mention, far easier to maintain. If I were to try getting one on a college graduates budget, and explaining the situation to someone at Shires, could they swap my valve out so I can get exactly what I wanted originally?

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:21 pm

Quote from: Babcockbone on Jun 27, 2015, 07:58PM could they swap my valve out so I can get exactly what I wanted originally?

Watch the classifieds - TruBores show up once in a while, and you can get them cheaper used if you're on a budget.

Later if you decide you're really hooked on the TruBore, you can sell the axial.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:57 pm

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jun 27, 2015, 06:24AMNeither. It's best to come up with something that frees you to get on with the business of making music and improving the way YOU play the instrument. The flesh, thought and emotion parts of the equation are the ones that are never perfect, in the sense that they are always changing. Once you've settled on an instrument, it's perfect.

The whole point of equipment finesse is to get your mind OUT of the equipment and into the headspace of creating music.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:59 pm

Quote from: Babcockbone on Jun 27, 2015, 07:58PMI am recently a convert to Shires, and I love my horn! (Sadly I loved my old horn too. But thanks to Delta and the TSA its in trombone heaven)
My question is:

I have an Axial Flow valve on my horn because the Shires dealer I went to did not have any Trubore valves. I have played them on a friends horn and I find that valve to be superior (in my opinion and with the way that I play) to the Axial valve, not to mention, far easier to maintain. If I were to try getting one on a college graduates budget, and explaining the situation to someone at Shires, could they swap my valve out so I can get exactly what I wanted originally?

We are a factory, and as such deal only in new instrument and do not take trades.

However, some of our dealers do take trades toward new components (sometimes used too). A quick bit of research will probably reveal which ones will work best for your needs.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:56 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 28, 2015, 09:59PMWe are a factory, and as such deal only in new instrument and do not take trades.

However, some of our dealers do take trades toward new components (sometimes used too). A quick bit of research will probably reveal which ones will work best for your needs.

Is it poaaible to convert a heavier weight bell to a lightet weight?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:04 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Jun 29, 2015, 02:56AMIs it poaaible to convert a heavier weight bell to a lightet weight?

No.

And Yes.

When a bell is made, part of what makes up it's weight is the thickness of the metal that you start with. This metal is thinner or thicker in certain places depending on the processes used to make the bell. It is possible to make a bell lighter by removing metal (thinning), usually by buffing or sanding the bell.

But where and how you remove the metal will have a profound difference on how the bell responds. Moreover, you are not going to get it the same as you would starting with a thinner metal. I.e. you can remove metal to get the weight down to the same as a lightweight bell but they will most likely not play the same.

So yes, you can make a bell lighter, but it will not be the same as a bell that started life destined to be a "lightweight".

I hope that makes sense.

Ben

ttf_Euphoni · Post by **ttf_Euphoni** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:56 pm

Hello Shires friends,

Two quickies about Shires products:

1. Why was the Marcus Bonna style Shires case discontinued?

2. Regarding the New Classic mpc.. how exactly is the rim shape different from the Vintage model?

Thanks!

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:19 pm

I also would like to pick Bens brain regarding bigger bells sizes (9" on tenor, 10.5" on bass)

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:23 pm

Shires bass bells play best for me when they are 10" marked. They aren't really 10" but more like 9 3/4". I tested five different of the same bell and always liked the 10".

ttf_SethMatrix · Post by **ttf_SethMatrix** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:40 pm

How can a tone ring/garland/kranz affect a bell if put on?

How does a screw bell modification affect a bell?

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:20 pm

OOOOOJJKKKKK

===============
DAN TRUITT sacramento state repair chairman --email pic of A N axial cone
which is less than perfet --duh perfect

so inquiring mind wantz 2 snow
wattaboudit ??????????????????????
flaky plating

--can it be fixed ???????
new cone

or new valve

or refit new cone to old casing or get an infinity valve from olsen

!!!!!!!!!!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:52 pm

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Jul 06, 2015, 05:19PMI also would like to pick Bens brain regarding bigger bells sizes (9" on tenor, 10.5" on bass)
Our standard sizes are what works best for 99.9% of our customers on tenor, and 95% of our American customers on bass.

Larger bells tend to have more "splash" in the sound, i.e. the have a bright characteristic to the sound that borders on the percussive side of things. This is all tempered, of course, by how the rest of the instrument is ordered, as well as the material and weight of the bell otherwise. Heavier bells tend to work better on the larger bass bells. I actually think of the larger bells often being more commercial in sound (tempered, of course, by how the rest of the instrument is ordered). Our German dealer often orders 10.5" bells in red brass, and those seem to work well for the style of music they are going for.

(FWIW, I play a 9" bell on my bass trombone 99% of the time. I find it to be quicker responding and more compact. Perfect for the commercial and jazz environments I usually find myself in.)

We do not usually do larger bells for tenors. Our mandrel does not allow us to make them reliably. Steve makes the determination personally if we can go ahead with it or not. I find the same "splashy" characteristic to be present, but more controlled than on the basses of similar weights. I would never recommend a lightweight 10.5" in bass bell. I wouldn't dissuade anyone from a 9" LW tenor bell, provided Steve was willing to make it.

As with my small bass bell, more tenor players are discovering the joys of an 8" tenor bell on a large bore instrument. More compact and singing, it proves to be a great solo bell, as well as lighter orchestral literature. Ken Thompkins of Detroit Symphony Orchestra has been using his 2RVE 8 quite often with great success.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:56 pm

Quote from: SethMatrix on Jul 06, 2015, 06:40PMHow can a tone ring/garland/kranz affect a bell if put on?

How does a screw bell modification affect a bell?

We do not make instrument with a garland/kranz. There have been a few bells we've had made in Germany for us that we've put Shires hardware on, but they are so different than our bells to begin with, an objective comparison is not really possible.

Screw bell collars add a significant amount of weight in a specific area of the horn. On the whole, I find these instruments to be a little more deliberate in their response while still retaining color. You loose a little bit of subtlety compared to a bell of the same spec, similar to bells of progressively heavier weight. Again, mileage may vary depending on the player and how the rest of the horn is spec'd out. I have heard no negative reports from customers that have had the conversion done. Some prefer it to standard spec and some use specific bells in specific halls (Blair Bollinger). The Ralph Sauer bell was designed with the screw collar, so I find that to loose nothing!

I hope that helps!

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:57 pm

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jul 06, 2015, 07:20PMOOOOOJJKKKKK

===============
DAN TRUITT sacramento state repair chairman --email pic of A N axial cone
which is less than perfet --duh perfect

so inquiring mind wantz 2 snow
wattaboudit ??????????????????????
flaky plating

--can it be fixed ???????
new cone

or new valve

or refit new cone to old casing or get an infinity valve from olsen

!!!!!!!!!!

Have him contact me directly at the factory!

[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:01 pm

Quote from: Euphoni on Jul 06, 2015, 01:56PMHello Shires friends,

Two quickies about Shires products:

1. Why was the Marcus Bonna style Shires case discontinued?

2. Regarding the New Classic mpc.. how exactly is the rim shape different from the Vintage model?

Thanks!

1.) We had delivery problems with the supplier and the quality of the cases started to fall. We've been very happy with the Pro-Tec cases we've been using since that time.

2.) It depends on the particular model/s you are comparing. Which or you interested in?

Thanks,
Ben

ttf_Euphoni · Post by **ttf_Euphoni** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:53 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 07, 2015, 02:01PM1.) We had delivery problems with the supplier and the quality of the cases started to fall. We've been very happy with the Pro-Tec cases we've been using since that time.

2.) It depends on the particular model/s you are comparing. Which or you interested in?

Thanks,
Ben

4MD

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:25 am

Quote from: Euphoni on Jul 07, 2015, 02:53PM4MD

I find the old 4MD to have a flatter rim contour (shallower arc) with a more defined bite as compared to the Vintage 4G. The new ones we are producing have a slightly rounder rim (slightly deeper arc) and a little softer bite into the cup.

I hope that helps.

ttf_bassclef · Post by **ttf_bassclef** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:58 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 08, 2015, 07:25AMI find the old 4MD to have a flatter rim contour (shallower arc) with a more defined bite as compared to the Vintage 4G. The new ones we are producing have a slightly rounder rim (slightly deeper arc) and a little softer bite into the cup.

I hope that helps.

Hi Ben,

Would you be able to provide the same comparison for the New Classic 1.5MD?

Thanks!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:39 am

Quote from: bassclef on Jul 09, 2015, 12:58PMHi Ben,

Would you be able to provide the same comparison for the New Classic 1.5MD?

Thanks!

The comparison remains almost the same for the new 1 1/4MD, though I think we nailed the weight even better. The new 1G and 1 1/4MD (the only new bass pieces right now) are really fantastic. Everyone that has tried them has been incredibly impressed.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:12 pm

Mr. Griffin:

I bought an used Shires 7.75 inch yellow bell 1YM, lightweight slide trombone. I play it with a Shires Vintage 11C.
And with a #2 brass lead pipe. I would like to mellow it out a little to get to the sound I want.
DJ Kennedy suggested to change the 11C mouthpiece to a Bach 11 (without the C) mouthpiece and get a copper or gold brass lead pipe.
In your experience, will this be in the right direction? I love the horn in all other respects, but I
am getting a sound that lacks the warmth I want.

Regards

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:32 pm

Quote from: louilou on Jul 10, 2015, 02:12PMMr. Griffin:

I bought an used Shires 7.75 inch yellow bell 1YM, lightweight slide trombone. I play it with a Shires Vintage 11C.
And with a #2 brass lead pipe. I would like to mellow it out a little to get to the sound I want.
DJ Kennedy suggested to change the 11C mouthpiece to a Bach 11 (without the C) mouthpiece and get a copper or gold brass lead pipe.
In your experience, will this be in the right direction? I love the horn in all other respects, but I
am getting a sound that lacks the warmth I want.

Regards

Short answer:

Yes. This would probably be all "in the right direction." The Shires 11Cs that I have played have always seemed to me to be a little lacking in the sound department. A little too bright, a little too...simple...in an overtones sense. Maybe a little too far in that direction if you combined them, though.

Longer answer:

The lightweight slides are also a little too "simple" sounding for my tastes, especially at volume. But...more complex sounds can be harder to handle in terms of control and endurance. It's all a set of compromises, and only you can make these decisions. Older Bach m'pces...especially NY versions...are models of complexity in terms of sound. Later ones not so much. 11 m'pces? Often they are so dark as to be unusable in certain mainstream big band situations. Some 11Cs, however...again especially NY models...seem to hit the Goldilocks mean. Not too bright, not too dark...juuuusst right.

Leadpipe alloys? Brass is the Goldilocks mean for me. Lighter alloys are too bright and heavier are too...dull.

For me.

Like I said...it's all a set of compromises, and only you can make the decisions.

Try everything; use what works.

For you.

Later...

S.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:37 pm

Thanks Sam. Experimenting and trying is the best way for me to fine tune these things. Regards.
Going back next week to review some of the things in the "American Trombonist" book. A lot of
wisdom and effective advice distilled in that book.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:56 am

Quote from: louilou on Jul 10, 2015, 09:37PM---snip---

Going back next week to review some of the things in the "American Trombonist" book. A lot of
wisdom and effective advice distilled in that book.

Thank you. I must say that my newer book is much better than that one. More complete; more thorough. Easier to use on lots of levels. Check it out.

S.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:38 am

Quote from: louilou on Jul 10, 2015, 02:12PMMr. Griffin:

I bought an used Shires 7.75 inch yellow bell 1YM, lightweight slide trombone. I play it with a Shires Vintage 11C.
And with a #2 brass lead pipe. I would like to mellow it out a little to get to the sound I want.
DJ Kennedy suggested to change the 11C mouthpiece to a Bach 11 (without the C) mouthpiece and get a copper or gold brass lead pipe.
In your experience, will this be in the right direction? I love the horn in all other respects, but I
am getting a sound that lacks the warmth I want.

Regards

Is this a nickel or brass lightweight slide?

(I'm going to guess nickel).

A lot of people try gold brass leadpipes, like them for a little while, and then leave them. Yellow brass is the default and works best for most of the people out there (at least 90%).

The mouthpiece is the simplest place to look and adjust. I'll have more suggestions once I have some more information.

I'm sure you understand, trying to adjust sound from afar (not in person) is incredibly difficult to do. We all have different ways of describing sound and use the same words to describe different things. "Mellowing" the sound could mean lessening upper overtones, or adding lower overtones, or thickening the sound with middle overtones, or broadening the sound, or focusing the sound, or...it goes on and on.

Try some different mouthpieces, a wide variety, and let me know what turns up. Also let us know what kind of slide and leadpipe are in the horn now.

Ben

ttf_Euphoni · Post by **ttf_Euphoni** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:51 am

Hello,

I am looking into buying this older model Shires 1G bell . It has very different engraving than any Shires I've seen and has Massachusetts spelled out on the bell.

I was wondering..

-when this bell would have been made (don't have the serial #)

-if this bell would have been made any differently than current 1Gs (flare shape, metal gauge, metal %s)

-if older shires bells are typically more or less desirable.

Thanks!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:34 am

I'm not Ben, but I have a similarly engraved Shires 1G bell placed on my Yamaha 682. It probably dates from the late 1990s, early in the Shires history. In fact, when I got my 1G bell people were paying in advance and waiting for 2 years to get delivery of their instruments.

The bell plays wonderfully.

It seems 1G bells have been supplanted in popularity by other Shires offerings, but I doubt they changed the original ones.

Ben can tell you more about the construction details. I would just say not to worry about whether it's a good bell.

One small detail: my bell developed a severe acid bleed around the bell wire which showed within a few months but has been stable ever since. It's now going on 20 years and the bell hasn't fallen apart; in fact it's as sturdy as ever.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:30 pm

Hello Ben and all - this is a great thread that just keeps going!

My questions:

1. Can you describe the basic playing differences between a type 1 and type 7 bell for your custom tenors?

2. I understand that the Dual-Bore rotor feels more open when the valve is activated, but does this setup affect the straight horn blow as well? Or would you say the straight horn blows exactly like the standard rotor?

3. In your observations, do you think the weight of the bell or the weight of the slide affects responsiveness more? For example, in search of a quicker, easier response, what combination might be more effective in most cases - standard weight bell with a light weight slide, or a light weight bell with a standard weight slide?

I understand that most details come down to the person that is playing, so I just want to get a feeling for your general observations with years of product testing.

Thank you!!!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:26 am

Glad you are enjoying the thread, I'll do my best to keep things moving with it! Onto your questions:

Quote1. Can you describe the basic playing differences between a type 1 and type 7 bell for your custom tenors?
I find the type 7 bells to have a more subtle flavor than the type 1 bells. The type 1 are very straightforward and direct, they present their inherent character to the player and audience. The type 7 bells are more subtle. They blend a little easier and their character is not quite as direct. The type 7 bells have become our most poplar for this reason, but I find some players with strong, solo-istic personalities really gravitate to the type 1 bells still (and the type 2 as well).

Quote
2. I understand that the Dual-Bore rotor feels more open when the valve is activated, but does this setup affect the straight horn blow as well? Or would you say the straight horn blows exactly like the standard rotor?
I need to address the first part of the statement before replying: One's personal experience with the valve is not another's. For some the Dual Bore valve is incredibly open and for others it is stuffier than other offerings. I prefer to describe the valve as more focused in the lower register that retains a true "tenor" sound. The nature of dual bore helps is lock into the harmonic more. This is not a valve for someone that wants the expansive sound and/or feel of an axial in the package of a rotor (our standard rotor does that wonderfully).

The feel of the horn is affected by anything that you hang off of it and this is true of different kinds of valves too, whether you are using them or not. I find the dual bore valve to retain a more focused feel than the standard rotor, whether you are using the valve or not.

Quote3. In your observations, do you think the weight of the bell or the weight of the slide affects responsiveness more? For example, in search of a quicker, easier response, what combination might be more effective in most cases - standard weight bell with a light weight slide, or a light weight bell with a standard weight slide?
The answer is an unequivocal "it depends", on what your definition of what a quicker, easier response is.

For some, it's how quickly the sound comes out of the bell after physically initiating the note (big shock: a lot of people perceive a specific time they want to experience this, and it's not always as quick as one might think). For some it's when the feel a response from the instrument. For some it's the quality of response the receive from the instrument (I think of this as "spring". For others it's how quickly it achieves a particular quality of sound.

Depending on what an individual wants based on the above (and more!) I will explore different options. I should note that material and size of different components affect "response" as much as weight of different components.

I don't mean to answer a question in nebulous fashion, but it's what is truly at the heart of the matter.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:35 pm

In my experience, the best way to a quicker, easier response is to make sure your embouchure system (lips, tongue, jaw, etc.) is absolutely ready to vibrate at the pitch you're thinking. And the air is there, of course.

I really don't mean that to be snarky.

If that's happening, many details about the instrument don't matter as much and you can simply be driven by the feedback that feels and sounds best to you from behind the bell. For some that's a heavy slide and a light bell, for others it's the opposite, for some it's everything as light as they can get it - or as heavy as they can get it - and for others it's everything in the golden middle.

I tend to be a middle guy myself.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:59 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 27, 2015, 08:26AM
I find the type 7 bells to have a more subtle flavor than the type 1 bells. The type 1 are very straightforward and direct, they present their inherent character to the player and audience. The type 7 bells are more subtle. They blend a little easier and their character is not quite as direct. The type 7 bells have become our most poplar for this reason, but I find some players with strong, solo-istic personalities really gravitate to the type 1 bells still (and the type 2 as well).
Precisely right.

I use my older type 1 bell as a dominant lead horn/solo horn. It is me, unalloyed and in your face.

I use my newer type 7 bell as more of a "blending" lead and solo horn. Not as dominant, overall more cooperative in a timbral sense. "Prettier" as opposed to "Holy SH!T!!!"

Both very useful; both very beautiful.

Like dat.

S.

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:16 pm

I've got an odd question...maybe.

I am about to start chemotherapy (again, this one is oral and should be much milder than the first batch I did in 2010-11) and am wondering if adding a counterweight to my Master Series might help further alleviate some fatigue I expect I will encounter because of the medicine?

I begin a performance degree in the fall and have already begun preparing for it but I expect that I will need all the physical help I can get if I'm to do it while going through treatment.

TL:DR - Will adding a counterweight to a Large Bore Tenor with Dual Bore attachment help balance the horn more or will it be too back heavy?

- Is this something that can be purchased from Shires as a separate part?

Thanks Ben!

Steve (Houston)

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:42 pm

As someone who plays primarily bass trombone, it's very difficult for me to play most large tenors without a counterweight. I would give it a try.

ttf_amichael · Post by **ttf_amichael** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:05 pm

I'm pretty sure I have a Shires removable counterweight and so they should be available.

But for more help, you might also try an ergobone or other horn support. Good luck with your treatment.

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:34 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 29, 2015, 12:42PMAs someone who plays primarily bass trombone, it's very difficult for me to play most large tenors without a counterweight. I would give it a try.

Ok...good to know. I used to have one on my Bach 42 back in the day but that was 15 years ago.

Quote from: amichael on Jul 29, 2015, 01:05PMI'm pretty sure I have a Shires removable counterweight and so they should be available.

But for more help, you might also try an ergobone or other horn support. Good luck with your treatment.

I have an Axe Handle on the horn right now...it helps alot. But what I am thinking of is that I could get even more weight off of the slide hand and free it up for movement rather than support. Normally I could hold the horn well with my left hand, but the more I play the more I feel my hand getting fatigued.

I think I want to try it...now to find one. I can't seem to find them on the Shires site. Anywhere else that might carry them individually?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:51 pm

Quote from: ah64pilot on Jul 29, 2015, 01:34PMOk...good to know. I used to have one on my Bach 42 back in the day but that was 15 years ago.

I have an Axe Handle on the horn right now...it helps alot. But what I am thinking of is that I could get even more weight off of the slide hand and free it up for movement rather than support. Normally I could hold the horn well with my left hand, but the more I play the more I feel my hand getting fatigued.

I think I want to try it...now to find one. I can't seem to find them on the Shires site. Anywhere else that might carry them individually?

http://seshires.com/trombones/tuning_slides/trombone_tuning_slides.html - $95

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:55 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 29, 2015, 01:51PM http://seshires.com/trombones/tuning_slides/trombone_tuning_slides.html - $95

Yeah, I found them right after I posted that...thanks!

I believe I still have to go to a 3rd party dealer to get one though. IIRC you can't order direct from Shires.

I show The Brass Exchange to have them...I'll try there.

Thanks!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:11 pm

You have an axe handle on the horn?!?!?

I'm not even sure what that is referring to, but it can't be good. Could you describe this further?

As for weight, it sound like you need two things: weight and balance.

The counterweight is going to ADD weight, but possibly improve balance. It's impossible for me to say for sure without saying more. Poor balance can cause a lot of fatigue that can manifest itself all the way up your arm into your back. This said, if weight is a concern, I'd be extremely reticent to add anything significant, even in the name of balance.

I should note that we make a hand brace that fits between your thumb and the palm of your hand. It became standard on all of our bass trombones this year. We make an aftermarket one that gets soldered onto your instrument for $125 (a tech needs to install it).

I have also suggested on MANY occasions for people with problems with weight: the ergobone. Yes, yes, it's not a Shires product. However it seems to be the single most effective tool for removing weight from the hands & arms. I've tried one at a show and found it to be a very useful tool. Most everyone balks, however; either because of the look or the cost. I for one don't understand that, especially if it's the difference between being able to play pain free or not.

Lastly, I am also very reticent to remove any weight from the slide in the name of movement. Weight is generally not the issue. It's alignment. Getting a good slide job paired with something else to take the weight out of your right hand (i.e. support with the left hand or somewhere else) willow your right arm to move freely. And the slide with it.

Furthermore, removing weight from a slide can drastically affect response and sound. If you like the way your horn plays, explore other options.

I hope this helps,
Ben

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:19 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 29, 2015, 02:11PMYou have an axe handle on the horn?!?!?

I'm not even sure what that is referring to, but it can't be good. Could you describe this further?

As for weight, it sound like you need two things: weight and balance.

The counterweight is going to ADD weight, but possibly improve balance. It's impossible for me to say for sure without saying more. Poor balance can cause a lot of fatigue that can manifest itself all the way up your arm into your back. This said, if weight is a concern, I'd be extremely reticent to add anything significant, even in the name of balance.

I should note that we make a hand brace that fits between your thumb and the palm of your hand. It became standard on all of our bass trombones this year. We make an aftermarket one that gets soldered onto your instrument for $125 (a tech needs to install it).

I have also suggested on MANY occasions for people with problems with weight: the ergobone. Yes, yes, it's not a Shires product. However it seems to be the single most effective tool for removing weight from the hands & arms. I've tried one at a show and found it to be a very useful tool. Most everyone balks, however; either because of the look or the cost. I for one don't understand that, especially if it's the difference between being able to play pain free or not.

Lastly, I am also very reticent to remove any weight from the slide in the name of movement. Weight is generally not the issue. It's alignment. Getting a good slide job paired with something else to take the weight out of your right hand (i.e. support with the left hand or somewhere else) willow your right arm to move freely. And the slide with it.

Furthermore, removing weight from a slide can drastically affect response and sound. If you like the way your horn plays, explore other options.

I hope this helps,
Ben

Hey Ben! The Axe Handle is made by Mike Olsen of Olsen Music Inovations. He is the guy who built the bullet brace for Edwards. The Axe Handle is his version of the Edwards Bullet Brace. He is a member here...very nice guy! And it works great! So there's that...I have it and it does help.

With regard to balance, I am not a small guy and the extra weight doesn't bother me at all. It's the balance of the horn that I am aiming at. My slide is [s]damn near[/s] perfect. I would not even consider taking weight off of the slide or having it worked on as a little Slide-O-Mix and this thing is slicker than snot. This Master Series has impressed even the most discerning performers...Thomas Hulten was indeed impressed with it. I really am just looking to get more weight off of my right hand.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:06 pm

I have an axe handle on my large bore Shires. It works very well, and fits better than the Bullet Brace due to clearance issues with the saddle for the trigger spring.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:47 pm

But it also clamps down on the horn which IMO deadens the horn as a whole. Try a brace gat doesn't and see how much better the horn sings!!

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:03 am

The Axe Handle and the Bullet Brace have similar clamps. I would expect any dampening effect to be similar. I don't notice a dampening effect with either brace - but that could be a comment on my playing rather than the brace.

ttf_Mahlerbone · Post by **ttf_Mahlerbone** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:24 am

Ben, I was wondering if you could give your general impressions of the S 1.0 and S 1.5 tuning slides. My .500 Shires is from 2002, so I'm assuming that I have the original tuning slide. Is that the 1.0? I read on the Shires website that the 1.5 is more popular because it gives the horn the more characteristic feel of the classic small bore instruments. That is exactly what I am looking for because I want a more compact sound, and currently my small bore Shires feels very open, even with a #1 leadpipe.

Also, how would the regular vs. seamed taper affect my decision on which tuning slide to get?

Lastly, I was wondering if I'd like a gold tuning slide. The yellow bell/gold tuning slide combo works very well for me on my large bore. I think I might like it on my small bore also.

ttf_SethMatrix · Post by **ttf_SethMatrix** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:39 am

what are some differences between a .562 slide and a .562/.587 dual bore slide?

I like the openness that the dual bore slide gives down low, but as I go into the mid and high range it makes the horn much harder to focus compared to a single bore slide.

I've thought that maybe a single bore slide with thayers would be a good combination, the openness of the thayers down in the valve range but still retain focus in the mid and high.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:42 am

Quote from: Mahlerbone on Jul 30, 2015, 09:24AMBen, I was wondering if you could give your general impressions of the S 1.0 and S 1.5 tuning slides. My .500 Shires is from 2002, so I'm assuming that I have the original tuning slide. Is that the 1.0? I read on the Shires website that the 1.5 is more popular because it gives the horn the more characteristic feel of the classic small bore instruments. That is exactly what I am looking for because I want a more compact sound, and currently my small bore Shires feels very open, even with a #1 leadpipe.

Also, how would the regular vs. seamed taper affect my decision on which tuning slide to get?

Lastly, I was wondering if I'd like a gold tuning slide. The yellow bell/gold tuning slide combo works very well for me on my large bore. I think I might like it on my small bore also.

Hi Jeff,

If your small bore tuning slide has no markings it is a standard SY, no number, which is the largest one we make. When the small bores first came out, they were mostly geared toward a larger feel. Since that time, we did come out with the SY1.0 and SY1.5 tuning slides, which make all the difference in the world when it comes to giving the horn more of a small bore feels, especially in terms of getting a more compact, dense sound out front. Of the two, the SY1.5 is the more compact and more popular with most players.

Gold brass is an interesting option, but most find that they prefer the yellow brass tuning slide on small bores. Doing a gold brass in any size would be a custom order only.

Seamed tuning slides on small bores are possible, but they don't settle in the same way they do on the large bores. The seamed tuning slides also tend not to have as much point to the front of the articulation as the drawn tuning slides do, which is usually the opposite of what people want in a small bore. Seamed small bore tuning slides would also be a custom order only.

I hope that helps!
Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:54 am

Quote from: SethMatrix on Jul 30, 2015, 09:39AMwhat are some differences between a .562 slide and a .562/.587 dual bore slide?

I like the openness that the dual bore slide gives down low, but as I go into the mid and high range it makes the horn much harder to focus compared to a single bore slide.

I've thought that maybe a single bore slide with thayers would be a good combination, the openness of the thayers down in the valve range but still retain focus in the mid and high.

Single or dual bore on bass is a personal choice based on many factors. For some, a dual bore slide locks in the notes more (especially when paired with dual bores). For others, they can experience a lack of center to the notes that you are experiencing. Certainly a B62 could possibly solve that issue, and it would be the first place I would look were you here at the factory.

The B62 slide does pair very well with all of our bass valves and is the standard slide with our Shires Custom Bass (with axial valves).

I hope this helps,
Ben

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:13 pm

I find exactly the same thing with dual bore bass slides (at least on Shires, which is what I know best) - I don't like the lack of focus to the articulations in the upper register. Some of it comes back if you go with a lightweight slide (as I did for a while), but I missed the density of sound I get with a standard weight slide.

Ultimately, I am so used to the feel of a single bore slide that I stick with it, even though I like the ease of production of a dual bore in the extreme low register.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:20 pm

I've had an interesting experience with Shires bass slide bores. I have only played single bore slides, and that's what's on my Shires. But a couple years back, I took the opportunity to try out a friends Shires with the same bell flare and tuning slide, but with tru bore valves (I have axials) and a dual bore slide. I was shocked to discover that the high register was MUCH easier for me on his instrument!

I tried out another dual bore slide on my bell section, and while it wasn't the same as with the true bores, the high register was still easier for me. i'm sticking with the single bore slide because I don't have money to throw at unnecessary equipment upgrades.