TromboneChat

Anyone have any opinions about the Courtois ACB550H bass trombone? Thanks! Saw one on sale for a good price.

Not my favorite horns. Supposed to be Bach copies, but something about the blow just turns me off. Also, hagmanns, probably my least favorite valve to deal with on a bass.

For the price of the one you're talking about, I would think about it a little harder.

Fell in love with mine after the first note. Got me closer to the sound concept I was looking for and worked at it from there. Low C’s and B’s felt easier compared to my previous trombone which had rotors so it was happy days. It just needed a little work on centring the middle register but the persistence pays off.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:43 am Not my favorite horns. Supposed to be Bach copies, but something about the blow just turns me off. Also, hagmanns, probably my least favorite valve to deal with on a bass.

For the price of the one you're talking about, I would think about it a little harder.

I see, I saw one on Facebook marketplace for 2350 and I was just shocked on the price. Thanks for the input. What about the Getzen 3062AFR?

I'd choose the Getzen in playability, but they are awfully boring! I'd love one as a backup.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:59 pm I'd choose the Getzen in playability, but they are awfully boring! I'd love one as a backup.

What do you mean as in its awfully boring?

Ultra boring sound, heavy build. Not a subtle design.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:57 pm Ultra boring sound, heavy build. Not a subtle design.

Any horn that you would recommend for around 2500? Preferably used?

Do you mean the Getzen is boring or the Courtois?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:23 pm Do you mean the Getzen is boring or the Courtois?

He meant the getzen is boring

Uh, first, the Courtois is not a copy of a Bach, sorry. Second, the Hagman valve system is among the best there is and of all the manufacturers that use Hagman, Courtois was the first and they have been doing it a long time. Look at the wrap. Third, my experience with the bass is they are easier to play and sound more like tenors above the staff than other brands, so they blend and don't sound woofy. Lastly- sound. The bells have plenty of color and overtones and are easy to play soft. What else do you need to know? Sound bytes?

Well, courtois tends to put the model name they are aping in their model number (420, 440, etc). And since Pollard was involved and played a Bach beforehand, I assumed it was bachy.

Hagmanns may have been around for a while... Doesn't meant they're good!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:25 am Well, courtois tends to put the model name they are aping in their model number (420, 440, etc). And since Pollard was involved and played a Bach beforehand, I assumed it was bachy.

Hagmanns may have been around for a while... Doesn't meant they're good!

Well...Paul played Edwards for a long time in between. I haven't found the Courtois I've tooted on to be particularly like Bachs.

Hagmanns can be mechanically finicky, but when they are set up and maintained well - and the right instrument is built around them - I like the way they feel and sound a lot.

That's true. The slide is very not bachy. I'll have to check the bell throat on my friend's horn next chance I get with my 50 tuning slide as well.

Still haven't played a really great hagmann set... I'm sure they're out there.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:50 am That's true. The slide is very not bachy. I'll have to check the bell throat on my friend's horn next chance I get with my 50 tuning slide as well.

Still haven't played a really great hagmann set... I'm sure they're out there.

They are. I play a Hagmann custom tenor and a Hagmann custom bass. Both built in the Servette Music shop in Geneva. Where Hagmanns where developed and where M. Hagmann works.

I assure you, those valves work like I have seen no other valves work and they sound great. I oil them maybe once a month even with heavy playing. They never freeze or seize or whatever. They flat out work. The most easy to maintain valves I have ever had. For something like 15 years.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of the Courtois line is modeled after other instruments. The AC420 is definitely Bach 42 Derived, and the AC440 is Conn 88H derived.

The 550 definitely has some "Bach-like" construction aspects, like the tuning slide style, double radius slide end bow, and that brass connector nut, which is just like on the 420 (but not the 440 or 502).

So the AC550BH is the stock Hagman bass today that replaced the AC500BH (which was also good and had the placque resonators that people thought were too heavy which I love). Paul took a liking to the 550BH and tweeked, hence the 551. Previously the AC500 was a standard rotor called the orchestra model- some of them are still floating around. They were all developed with players in Europe. Just for you historians, the Bach resemblance goes back several years ago thanks to a guy named Michel Becquet, who decided that Courtois should start making horns with more appeal for the western market. The AC440 is produced primarily to sell in the UK market as players want the Elkhart Conn thing. That horn is very good BTW and is modeled after a 1960 Elkhart. So, Paul and Weston decided to tweek the tenor and bass 420 and 550 into the 421 and 551 models called NEW YORK under the CREATION series. The standard models are still out there and are quite good. (420BO, BT, BH). This fall there will be a release of the new PARIS model under the CREATION series (Michel Becquet and Fabrice Millicher). That will bring the solid one sheet sterling bell back with some special appointments. To follow will be the Amsterdammer (Jorgen van Rijen), and Berliner (Stefan Shultz), which will round out the CREATION series. Those guys take forever to finish a project because they are so busy and in demand allover the place.

Kyle 4261 is the bass trombonist with the famous Halle orchestra and he won that job on his Courtois bass. He sounds amazing and even survived being a student of mine.

Chris

Back when I owned an Elkhart 88H I had a chance to play it back-to-back with an AC440. The 440 had a better-feeling valve (newer), but it didn't necessarily play any differently. The biggest difference was in the articulations. My Elkhart could give you a tremendous snap if you asked for it- the 440 was much more diffuse. I'd say the Elkhart had more front, and the 440 had more core. The 440 didn't give nearly as much feedback to the player, either.

Still, the 440 was a better horn than the Gen II 88Hs, which I find a bit soulless.

Well there are reasons. First a soldered rim versus the 88 unsoldered is why the 88 gives you more feedback, whereas the 440 gives you more volume. My experience with the 440 is that it is a cleaner articulation and somewhat brighter timbre more so than my '63 88 and '59 8H. In the end it is a very good even "up to date" Elkhart feel but maybe with more security, finesse and power. I learned a good lesson from John Marcellus about the 440 which got me thinking about it.

So if I understand correctly there is going to be a 440 with sterling available in the fall?