TromboneChat

I currently play (mostly) a 1965 (or so) Elkhart Conn 88H. The horn is very well-traveled, and the slide, that has had numerous minor repairs over the years is starting to become noticeably worn, including a spot where the plating is wearing off the inner slide. I started thinking of buying a new slide when I ran across a couple of advertisements for several varieties of new Conn 88H slides, both single-bore and dual-bore. For several reasons, I was particularly interested in the SL2547 slide, a .525/.547 dual-bore slide. The first site where I encountered these slides stated clearly that they were compatible with ALL versions of the 88H. Upon further investigation, however, I was told that Ralph Sauer said categorically that the new slides were Gen-2 slides and they were definitely NOT compatible with the old 88Hs. No reason was given. Now, I consider Ralph Sauer to be pretty much an authority on most things 88H, but I would like to get the full story on the matter of slide compatibility. Does anyone know the details?

I've used all the new slides with my '68 Elkhart 88h. My regular rig is my '68 bell with my SL2525 slide. There may be something very subtle to find fault with this arrangement, but I really like it.

I don't see a problem. I'm not Ralph Sauer.

The original 88H slides are different than the Gen 2 slides for sure (there's even subtle variation between early and current Gen 2 slides). Amongst other things, the biggest differences are the original Elkhart slides had different leadpipes, were a slightly different length and had a different tenon that went into the receiver on the bell section. You can play a new Gen 2 slide on an original 88H, but in my experience it will alter the intonation significantly. I've tried it before and found myself pulling out my tuning slide much farther than usual and the partials felt different. I wouldn't recommend mixing and matching those, but it can be done in a pinch.

If it played the same there would be no point in using it, I'd just use my original Elkhart slide.

The only new slide I actually use is the 2525. The others made a difference I didn't think was a good one.

If you're trying to get a straight replacement for the original slide, the other answer is probably more to the point. But if you're looking for a different color, the new slides work, you just have to decide if you like the new color.

The 2525 on an Elkhart bell gives you something lighter in sound and more nimble. Its actually brighter than my 79h, but also a bit more diffuse with the larger bell. It works, you just have to decide if you like it or not.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:34 am If it played the same there would be no point in using it, I'd just use my original Elkhart slide.

The only new slide I actually use is the 2525. The others made a difference I didn't think was a good one.

If you're trying to get a straight replacement for the original slide, the other answer is probably more to the point. But if you're looking for a different color, the new slides work, you just have to decide if you like the new color.

The 2525 on an Elkhart bell gives you something lighter in sound and more nimble. Its actually brighter than my 79h, but also a bit more diffuse with the larger bell. It works, you just have to decide if you like it or not.

I was answering the original question posted, not critiquing your set-up. Technically speaking the Gen 2 slides have different tenons that go into the bell receiver so it's not a perfectly compatible fit. The gaps will be different. Plus the slides overall are different lengths. It can certainly be done and people do it, but it's something to be aware of.

Anyone know if the make a wide slide for current models?

I don't think they've ever offered a wide slide version for the 88H outside of a custom job. Maybe some of the 88HTG Greenhoe variants did? They'd probably make you one if you special ordered it. I'd like to see them offer it as a standard option.

I have a Conn 8H modified. Elkhart bell, convertible, with silver plated OE Thayer, and a Gen 2 slide. I actually love the newer slide. The leadpipe taper works better for me and I love the weight, the balance is a little different, don’t need a counterweight like most Elkharts require for me. I think if I was only doing orchestral work I’d use an Elkhart slide, but if you are also doing horn section stuff or jazz and want a big sound, the Gen 2 slide works best. Need to get my hands on a .525 one!

How much difference would a leadpipe change make in a new slide?

As with any horn...a lot! The stock SL4747 slide comes with 3 leadpipes: standard Gen 2, vintage Remington Elkhart style and a Marcellus pipe designed with John Marcellus. They're all quite different from one another. I also find the the slides w/interchangeable leadpipes in general play differently than the ones with fixed leadpipes. But that's just me.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:34 am If it played the same there would be no point in using it, I'd just use my original Elkhart slide.

The only new slide I actually use is the 2525. The others made a difference I didn't think was a good one.

If you're trying to get a straight replacement for the original slide, the other answer is probably more to the point. But if you're looking for a different color, the new slides work, you just have to decide if you like the new color.

The 2525 on an Elkhart bell gives you something lighter in sound and more nimble. Its actually brighter than my 79h, but also a bit more diffuse with the larger bell. It works, you just have to decide if you like it or not.

Thanks for your very helpful reply. I completely agree that the entire point of considering the new slides is trying to take advantage of a different, hopefully improved, color.

I guess it might have been helpful to include what I'm looking for in a new slide, besides eliminating the slowly increasing drag of my poor, dinged up, original slide. When I purchased the 88H, I was a student at the Conservatory in Cincinnati. The 88H was THE horn of choice there. It was an excellent choice given the amount of orchestral music played at the school. I have no real complaints, not then and not now. After I left the Conservatory, I was playing jazz, some club work, but mostly playing lead in a number of big bands including lots of very high, very soft, pretty stuff. The 88H with its original, large-shank Remington mouthpiece was surprisingly good at that, tho' I did have to work a bit on switching between a broad sound suitable for club/solo work and the more edgy sound suitable when playing over a section of smaller bore horns.

Originally, I was just planning to send my slide off to B.A.C. to have the slide FIXED/RESTORED to (hopefully) like-new condition. Whatever that took. In the process, I discovered that there were new slides! I am NOT an experienced, knowledgeable hardware guy, having played this horn for most of my life, but a very experienced friend whose opinion I respect suggested that I just MIGHT like the additional clarity I could pick up with a dual-bore, (.525/.547) slide. To that end, I borrowed and played his Courtois dual-bore (.525/.547) horn for a week. I liked the sound. It was a little prettier and clearer, but I disliked that the horn was much heavier than my 88H. That experience led me to think the SL2547 might be worth investigating. The BIG problem, of course, is that there don't seem to be any available to try -- to verify the compatibility, to check the sound difference, etc. I believe that if I KNEW that the slide was compatible with my horn, I would likely take the risk and give it a try. Hence: my initial note here.

Thanks again for your reply. You've definitely given me excellent information to ponder! As for your NOT being Ralph Sauer: so few of us are!!!

I can vouch for what hyperbolica reports above. The SL2547 handslide works very well with an Elkhart '68 bell section.

The newer slide is probably only an 1/8th of an inch shorter than the original slide. The materials the new slide is made of are different than the original slide, for sure. Rose tubes, and the nickel silver crook are gone, as the new slide has a yellow crook and gold brass tubes (maybe they are 80/20 copper/brass? Dunno, but they are darker than yellow brass).

Regardless, the horn sounds great with the SL2547, with no fitment problems, or funky intonation side effects. Works very well with the small shank "T" leadpipe and a ss Schilke 51C4.

FEWeathers wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:57 amThe newer slide is probably only an 1/8th of an inch shorter than the original slide. The materials the new slide is made of are different than the original slide, for sure. Rose tubes, and the nickel silver crook are gone, as the new slide has a yellow crook and gold brass tubes (maybe they are 80/20 copper/brass? Dunno, but they are darker than yellow brass).

Regardless, the horn sounds great with the SL2547, with no fitment problems, or funky intonation side effects. Works very well with the small shank "T" leadpipe and a ss Schilke 51C4.

Are you sure it's a yellow brass end bow? Maybe that's for the SL2547 only? The standard ones still has the nickel silver crook, though Conn sometimes used a golden lacquer, which made everything look darker.

Nickel silver crook and gold brass outer tubes is still standard on all the 88H slides

Well, the SL2547 isn't a "standard slide," but an optional one. As reported, the slide crook on my SL2547 is not nickel silver,



Here's another angle,




Plays, and sounds, great.

Ahh... I see. The confusion isn't about the end crook, it's the slide tubes. Look at the color of them compared to the bell and tuning slide.

Your slide has Yellow Brass Outers with a nickel silver end bow. And yes Conn has had 88H horns with yellow brass outers before. The lacquer on the SL2547 slide is slightly more yellow than that on the other slide, so it's hard to tell, but I'm almost certain that's a yellow brass slide.

I've seen many 88H slides like that before, but it's not actually yellow brass. The variations in color are probably due to the different lacquer formulas used through the years and also different sources of metal. Happens on the bell sections as well sometimes. I have an 88H from around 2000 that has the same coloring on the slide and the bell is much less red looking than the newer ones.

Perhaps a true metal expert could weigh in, but that's what I've always been told by techs and people who work at Conn.

Thanks to ALL of you folks (guys and gals) for weighing in on the subject of the new Conn 88H slides. All of your comments have been informative and helpful. Based partially on what I've read here, I've decided to go ahead with the purchase of an SL2547. My one BIG concern was that early on in my investigation of the slide, the question of compatibility was raised. That appears NOT to be a problem.

I'm considering buying the new slide from Pro Winds Online Store (https://www.prowinds.com/product/8634/573). They have a 15% off, Labor Day sale on right now, so I can save more than $150 on an already very good price. Anyone have any thoughts or experiences with Pro Winds they'd like to share?

Dillon's is selling a used one that looks nice: https://www.dillonmusic.com/used-conn-s ... pipes.html

They're a good place to buy from in general.

What castrubone says. Pick up the one from Dillons, and have it in a few days. It could be months if you order through ProWinds, as they have none in stock.

FEWeathers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:28 pm What castrubone says. Pick up the one from Dillons, and have it in a few days. It could be months if you order through ProWinds, as they have none in stock.

You folks are just too good! I've ordered from Dillions.
Thanks again for ALL the help and advice.

castrubone wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:06 pm I've seen many 88H slides like that before, but it's not actually yellow brass. The variations in color are probably due to the different lacquer formulas used through the years and also different sources of metal. Happens on the bell sections as well sometimes. I have an 88H from around 2000 that has the same coloring on the slide and the bell is much less red looking than the newer ones.

Perhaps a true metal expert could weigh in, but that's what I've always been told by techs and people who work at Conn.

I would compare the color of the end bow to the color of the cork barrels on that slide. Also if you look inside the outer slide, it's usually pretty easy to tell whether it's Yellow or Rose brass. I'm more certain on the end bow being Nickel than the slide tubes mind you. Even if the end bow was yellow brass, the ferrules and fittings should be nickel silver, so there would be a color difference.

Compare it to the cork barrels? Behold!




(Last pic from my lyin' eyes. Have a great long weekend, folks. )

My new SL2547 slide arrived from Dillon Music this morning and it does not disappoint. As several people in this thread suggested above, the slide fits my '65 88H perfectly. There are no tuning problems or pitch irregularities. The new slide is a fraction of an inch shorter than my old one, but that causes no problems.

There were a couple of surprises:
1) The new slide came with H, T, and X leadpipes. I had assumed (always a problem!!!) that the X, large shank leadpipe would accommodate my old Remington mouthpiece. It does not. The taper is wrong. So I'm starting out using my small shank Remington mouthpiece, the one that I use on the rare occasions that I play my old 6H. Ugh!

2) The horn with the new slide seems a bit stuffy. I suppose that might be partly because of the new slide, but it almost certainly is compounded by the small-shank mouthpiece.

3) The new slide uses cork bumpers rather than springs. Not a big deal, but it'll take a day or two to get used to.

4) The new slide is a bit heavier and tighter than my old one. It moves very smoothly but not nearly as quickly or easily as my old slide. I hold the slide between my thumb and first two fingers, and I often tend to take my thumb off of the slide bar when moving the slide both in or out (i.e. I lightly toss the slide). It will take a little time to adjust to the heavier, tighter slide that is not quite as responsive as my old one.

Thanks to EVERYONE for your willingness to share your thoughts, knowledge, and guidance on this topic. It's been extremely helpful!!!

I have an Elkhart 8H bell I bought from Dillon a few years back. It came with a 90s era 2547 slide (marked “ML” instead of 2547). Works great on the Elkhart bell or on a much newer Greenhoe Conn 88htg. My slide was just old enough that it had a Remington receiver on the X pipe. Since it’s a 2 piece leadpipe, I had it swapped out for a Morse receiver. I still have the Remington receiver if you’re interested. I’ve used the 2547 slide in quintet and in orchestra (on the rare occasions I play tenor in an orchestra) and might prefer it to the stock 4747 slide I have. FWIW, mine has a nickel crook slightly obscured by that lovely orange tinted lacquer.

Reviving this very informative thread with an add on question: we learned that modern generation 2 Conn slides do fit modern 88H and Elkhard 88H bells. Do they also fit other bells, like 50H or 78H? Or even other brands, like Bach, Olds, Benge or others? I would like to learn with which other bells they can be mated without need for modifications.

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:51 pm Anyone know if the make a wide slide for current models?

If you customize a wide slide for an 88H, it doesn't work well. The bell section would need to be altered to account for the affect a wider/longer slide has on the overall length and how the partials line up.

I have an Elkhart/Minick 88h with a widened slide (Shires Crook) and I have had no problems playing it in tune. If you remove the springs, that will pretty well compensate for the extra 1/4 “ in the crook.

It's not really about playing it in tune, per se, but the way the partials will line up. Everybody is different. I know it gave Getzen some head scratching when they tried putting a narrow slide on their bell section for Bousfield.

marccromme wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:39 pm Reviving this very informative thread with an add on question: we learned that modern generation 2 Conn slides do fit modern 88H and Elkhard 88H bells. Do they also fit other bells, like 50H or 78H? Or even other brands, like Bach, Olds, Benge or others? I would like to learn with which other bells they can be mated without need for modifications.

It doesn't work with a 78/79h. I doubt it fits the 50h.
The sl slides fit 525/547/562 to the 88h bell. So they also fit 62/70/72...etc...

Are you looking for a rough friction fit or perfect nut thread fit?

Both informations, friktion fit or exact nut thread fit are valuable.

The Conn sl slides also fit to the Conn 52H bell.

ConnBone18 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:43 am The Conn sl slides also fit to the Conn 52H bell.

Nice, thanks for the info

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:50 pm How much difference would a leadpipe change make in a new slide?

I put a Bach 42 pipe in my 8HT slide and it radically changed the sound for the better.

And my 2 cents on the original post, i haven't had an issue using my 8H slide on an older 8H/88H bell thus far. I have had an issue using a 100H slide on my 6H bell. Im sure theyre are circumstances in every case that may or may not allow for a good fit.

marccromme wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:39 pm Reviving this very informative thread with an add on question: we learned that modern generation 2 Conn slides do fit modern 88H and Elkhard 88H bells. Do they also fit other bells, like 50H or 78H? Or even other brands, like Bach, Olds, Benge or others? I would like to learn with which other bells they can be mated without need for modifications.

32H, 50H, 78H, and 79H will interchange with each other but not interchange with the 8H/88H. Also, the later 50H horns are .525" bore instead of .522". I am not sure about other brands that might work.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:21 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:50 pm How much difference would a leadpipe change make in a new slide?

I put a Bach 42 pipe in my 8HT slide and it radically changed the sound for the better.

Can you expand on how it improved the sound and blow? Is this a common thing for a Bach pipe to work well in an 88h?

Rusty wrote: ↑Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:50 am

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:21 pm

I put a Bach 42 pipe in my 8HT slide and it radically changed the sound for the better.

Can you expand on how it improved the sound and blow? Is this a common thing for a Bach pipe to work well in an 88h?

It made the sound more focused and even. The stock pipe in my 8H never seemed centered. The 42 pipe just seemed to even everything up. All of my Conns have Bach pipes in them and the difference is positive.