For techs : 2B bell on 607 II

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:23 am

Hello

I'm having 2 trombones now in the idea of making one out of these 2.

- King Tempo from the 60's, nickel 2B bell.
- King 607 II, .525 bore (w/F)

First modification i'll make is to convert the F wrap to Eb wrap, to make it smooth to phrase fast in the mid-low register. Don't need the very low Es, Eb etc... anyway. This is easy to make.

The other thing, i thought about fitting my Tempo bell on the 607 bell section. Cause i reaaally love it. (Maybe it won't fit with the larger bore or leadpipe design of the 607 ?) Technically, how do you techs would proceed ?

The Tempo bell is narrower than the 607 and will be loose in the bigger tuning slide receiver. I want to use the tuning slide of the 607 as it's in good condition... My Tempo's tuning slide is dented all the way and has no brace anymore, which is a must have on the 607 for the rigidity of the bell section. I'd also fit the Tempo main flare brace on the 607 to keep the same "solder position" on the flare (see what i mean ?)

1) Keep the original 607 big tuning slide receiver and adapt somehow the Tempo flare in there ?
2) Use the Tempo tuning slide receiver and modify somehow the 607 tuning slide so it fits in ?
3) Modify the end on the Tempo flare (the one that goes into the tuning slide receiver) to enlarger it and make it fit in the 607 tuning slide receiver ? (This sounds terrible...)
4) Make a new tuning slide with the 607 tuning slide receiver on the bottom and the Tempo one on the top ? But how ?

What do you guys recommend ?

Thanks

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:32 am

If I were attempting this I'd just take it to my tech and tell them I wanted to swap the 607 bell out for the tempo bell and have them work it out.

They'll probably "simply" unsolder the 607F bell and then use that part to fit the tempo bell. Can't guarantee it'll work but it wouldn't be too hard to reverse if it didn't. If they're unsoldering and working with your F tubing, they'll have to do some of that anyway.

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:50 am

Thanks !

Correction i meant G-wrap instead of F wrap. I just shorten it to get a minor third down.

I'm used with modifying or repair my trombones myself and i have the gear for it. I'm just a bit puzzled facing that problem, cause simply unsoldering the 607 bell will not make the Tempo bell fit in there... The Tempo is smaller in diameter and will fit loose in the tuning slide receiver. That's the problem

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon May 22, 2017 8:54 am

When I say "that part" I mean they would then solder the 607F tuning slide receiver onto your tempo bell.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon May 22, 2017 9:00 am

If you're saying that the 607F tuning slide receiver is larger than the tempo bell, then that's possible. It is an assumption though. They might have to adjust the diameter a little bit. My techs have adjusted bells that were both larger and smaller than the tuning slide receiver (Edwards bass bell -> Shires and Bach 42 bell -> Shires, respectively). In the case of the latter they indicated they expanded the opening of the bell and in the case of the former they removed some material from the receiver itself on a lathe until it fit.

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:54 am

Thanks for you feedback

I'd be interested in the technique involved to expand the bell end ?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 23, 2017 7:33 am

Unfortunately if they elaborated I've forgotten. I suspect they put a dent ball in it. If the smaller bell is longer, they may also elect to cut the top material off until the expanse is correct which would serve the secondary purpose of also having a bell of the appropriate length for the horn.

ttf_stanzabone · Post by **ttf_stanzabone** » Tue May 23, 2017 10:22 am

I had a situation very like this. It was an older Tempo that I bought from eBay (the slide was... disappointing) and a 3B with a trashed bell. I had in mind to simply fit the 3B slide to the Tempo bell section, But when I picked up the new Frankenhorn the tech said he had some issues getting the two to work together & eventually did about what you describe, removing the bell flare from the Tempo & soldering it in place on the 3B bell stays. I ended up with a horn with about the same basic specs as a Bach 16M, with the 3B's .509 slide section & more open neck pipe topped off by the nickel screamer of a bell from the Tempo. It's a quite interesting result, although a bit different from what I first had in mind.

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Tue May 23, 2017 12:31 pm

That's for sure pretty much my idea jap

I really love my nickel Tempo screamer as you call it, but the Tempo slide i have is such in poor condition (leadpipe corroded like hell and broken in 3 parts, which are moving in there, messing with my intonation...) and i'd like to switch to something bigger anyway.

Did you have a 2B like or 3B like Tempo bell ?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 23, 2017 12:45 pm

Kind of like the opposite of the JJ setup. Its a cool idea, I might have to keep my eyes out for a tempo bell section.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Tue May 23, 2017 3:12 pm

Quote from: lou2cv on May 23, 2017, 12:31PM
I really love my nickel Tempo screamer as you call it...

Sorry--I'm grumpy about this one. I've inspected many Tempo bells, and not one was actually nickel. They were all nickel plated. If you believe the plating makes a difference, then more power to you. However, the fact is that every Tempo I've ever seen has had a rather thick brass bell with a thick nickel coating that has been lacquered. I don't see why they would be "screamers," as compared to other King brass bells of similar dimensions, and I would imagine that the extra mass of the plating would deaden more than liven. My opinion is that any exceptional auditory properties are probably due to something other than the nickel. And despite the curved brace, a Tempo bell is has little in common with a 2B bell. A 2B slide on a Tempo bell doesn't produce the sound of a 2B. Like I said--grumpy.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 23, 2017 4:16 pm

That's interesting. I had a tempo a while ago that I gave a pretty aggressive satin finish to and it didn't give way to brass at all. It must be very thick plating. It did play quite bright though. Obviously its a small horn so it makes sense in some ways. Though when I play something heavier, I have a tendency to play consistently bright in a way that on a more 'responsive' horn that is lighter, maybe with red brass as well, I find it easier to back off. SO its probably a function of its heaviness is what causes me to perceive it as bright. At least that's a hypothesis.

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Wed May 24, 2017 9:32 am

Hey guys, thanks for your reviews

In fact yes, the Tempo bell is not "sterling" nickel, just nickel-plated. But definitely thicker. I've had a 2B before and i can tell the difference. With the same slide and mouthpiece, the Tempo bell sounds way brighter and is opening up literally forever before the sound cracks if you push lot of air through the horn. NOT the case of the 2B bell which gives up pretty quickly. I play regulary in salsa bands and the Tempo is absolutely the hamer !

I know that's purely a matter of personal taste and style, but i'm in love with this Tempo bell sound. I like clear and bright sound rather than dark and mellow tone. That's why i'd like to keep it !

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Sun May 28, 2017 5:22 am

Does anyone have experience with this kind of setup ? Medium bore trombone with smaller bell ?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun May 28, 2017 5:50 am

No experience, but I think it would produce quirky intonation and feel in the high range, maybe not what you'd expect. I'd be interested to hear how it ends up if you do it.

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Sun May 28, 2017 5:58 am

Thanks for your input Doug

I'll try it, and let you know. Anyway if it's not matching my expectations, i can still come back to the original setup.

ttf_TNTBONE · Post by **ttf_TNTBONE** » Sun May 28, 2017 6:08 am

Matt, you have had some interesting mods done. I am attempting to convert my 36G bell to fit Shires bell mounting components. The Shires bell end tuning slide receiver's inner diameter is narrower than the Bach bell OD. Would you mind providing your tech's contact info? Thanks, Greg

Quote from: Matt K on May 22, 2017, 09:00AMIf you're saying that the 607F tuning slide receiver is larger than the tempo bell, then that's possible. It is an assumption though. They might have to adjust the diameter a little bit. My techs have adjusted bells that were both larger and smaller than the tuning slide receiver (Edwards bass bell -> Shires and Bach 42 bell -> Shires, respectively). In the case of the latter they indicated they expanded the opening of the bell and in the case of the former they removed some material from the receiver itself on a lathe until it fit.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Sun May 28, 2017 8:52 am

Quote from: TNTBONE on Yesterday at 06:08 AMMatt, you have had some interesting mods done. I am attempting to convert my 36G bell to fit Shires bell mounting components. The Shires bell end tuning slide receiver's inner diameter is narrower than the Bach bell OD. Would you mind providing your tech's contact info? Thanks, Greg

Todd Clontz is at Rosso Music in Baltimore. How far away are you?...

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun May 28, 2017 10:35 am

Quote from: TNTBONE on Yesterday at 06:08 AMMatt, you have had some interesting mods done. I am attempting to convert my 36G bell to fit Shires bell mounting components. The Shires bell end tuning slide receiver's inner diameter is narrower than the Bach bell OD. Would you mind providing your tech's contact info? Thanks, Greg

Sure, I'll check my records when I get home this weekend. I believe my 36 bell was mounted in Pittsburgh at Hollis and Germann. I also had a 42 mounted (same bell different flare) by Albert Houde (Baltimore Brass/houde custom brass).

I'm a little surprised about the size of the receiver. I may have been remembering the problem backwards and it may have been that the Bach WAS bigger than the Shires.

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:37 pm

Some news

The Tempo bell appears to be longer than the 607 bell. And slightly smaller in diameter too. I cut the extra lenght off and now it's fitting perfectly in the receiver. Still have to do the G attachment modification tomorrow though...

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:17 pm

Quote from: lou2cv on Jun 04, 2017, 02:37PMSome news

The Tempo bell appears to be longer than the 607 bell. And slightly smaller in diameter too. I cut the extra lenght off and now it's fitting perfectly in the receiver. Still have to do the G attachment modification tomorrow though...

post pictures when you're done! (You'll have to upload them somewhere else though, this sites sotrage is full)

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:54 am

Yes !

I'm just a bit struggling to calculate how much tube lenght i should remove and how - King wrap is not so easy to modify !

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:37 am

So

Trombone is finished, and works perfect ! Really keen on practicing now...

ttf_stanzabone · Post by **ttf_stanzabone** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:53 am

Quote from: lou2cv on May 24, 2017, 09:32AMHey guys, thanks for your reviews

In fact yes, the Tempo bell is not "sterling" nickel, just nickel-plated. But definitely thicker. I've had a 2B before and i can tell the difference. With the same slide and mouthpiece, the Tempo bell sounds way brighter and is opening up literally forever before the sound cracks if you push lot of air through the horn. NOT the case of the 2B bell which gives up pretty quickly. I play regulary in salsa bands and the Tempo is absolutely the hamer !

I know that's purely a matter of personal taste and style, but i'm in love with this Tempo bell sound. I like clear and bright sound rather than dark and mellow tone. That's why i'd like to keep it !

Oh yes, I was a bit brief on my previous post. Definitely a plated bell on the old Tempo. I tried playing it in a few concert band rehearsals, but it wasn't really ideal for that, at least in that section & group. Also, Doug's note about the intonation is something to be aware of. My other horn at the time was an 88h, so it was a big change to trade off between the two.

lou2cv's story sounds familiar; I believe the tech that did the work on mine went thru the same process. The final product looks very cool. Congrats & enjoy!

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:23 am

Interesting, I was wondering how you would wrap the G attachment. I thought you might take the upper brace out and make one longer tube but that makes sense how you did it there.

Let us know how it plays. There are enough of each of these horns lying around with various broken components that someone else might try something similar in the future!

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:08 am

Yes, i first thought about laying one wrap aside and keep just one, but it appeared easier to do it like this. And it looks cool too i think

The tuning slide is a bit short, approx. 1.5cm of lenght, but it's enough.

The horn plays pretty fine, i just notice a short difference in the sound feeling - the typical feel that a valve gives. Intonation changed a liiiiittle bit also, suprisingly in the middle register, bewteen

and

Gotta practice a bit to get used to it. Anyway it plays very fine, i'll try it out in some Salsa settings and see if it's still hammering the hell out of the dancefloor

By the way, would you guys recommend to lube the rotor with the Yamaha purple silicon lube ? Seems to work well so far, but i'm not sure that the thing remains clean.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:16 am

Most of us seem to like Hetman's (8 or 9, I think).

I have a sample of Mobil Velocite 10 that I got from the walls of an empty 20 liter container at a former place of employment. That sample goes a long way. But I wouldn't recommend buying a 20 liter container for personal use, unless I was supplying all the rotor trombones in France.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:52 am

I use hetman piston on my rotors, I've been told its the same as the lightest hetman rotor oil but I don't know that for sure. Its worked fine on all the rotaries I've sued it on but I put it on just about every time I play, though I don't play every day now that I'm in a different career.

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:58 pm

Ok thank you for your tips

Played my first salsa gig today and was pretty much OK, noticed no difference in the horn response or feeling after the modification ! Still sizzling.

ttf_lou2cv · Post by **ttf_lou2cv** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:58 pm

Ok thank you for your tips

Played my first salsa gig today and was pretty much OK, noticed no difference in the horn response or feeling after the modification ! Still sizzling.