Flexibility Advice: a change in mouthpiece?

ttf_weezerfan4427 · Post by **ttf_weezerfan4427** » Wed May 31, 2017 6:24 pm

Hello! I am in need of some feedback regarding flexibility. As I have dedicated this summer's practicing to honing my flexibility/lips slurs around the trombone, I have noticed that I am having continued difficulty ironing out some of the "blips" when moving from the 4th to 6th partials (Bb - F). No matter how slowly and patiently I take it, I seem to have some small bumps when moving up and down through the registers. I am curious if this simply requires more work and time, or if a change in mouthpiece would facilitate my progress.

I currently play on a GB 4GS, which is the rim size of a 4G but cup size of a 5G. I recently moved up to this size from a GB 5G. In doing some experimenting, I did notice that the lip slurs seemed smoother when I played on my Bach 5G that I have, which is why I am curious to hear other's opinions regarding a mouthpiece change. Would this be advisable?

If so, what are recommendations for a change? I am looking for something around the size of a 4, but I really enjoy the tone production and rim comfort of the Greg Black mouthpieces. I have heard some good things about the New York series, as well as the Giddings and Webster mouthpieces. The problem is that I am not in a place to dump the money into trying so many out.

Any advice is appreciated. Thank you for reading and have a great day!

Josh

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed May 31, 2017 6:43 pm

From what I'm reading, you need help from an embouchure expert. Don't throw any money into another mouthpiece until you do.

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Wed May 31, 2017 8:44 pm

Do you mean slurring from Bb 4th to F 6th you bump into D 5th? Welcome to the club. There seem to be three basic mechanisms going on and they are ALWAYS working together. One is you shrink the aperture. Two is you use more air. And three is your tongue moves from an ah toward an ee for the slur. You can try to practice these independently. To skip the D seems to require a momentary lull in the air while the other mechanisms go to work across the D.

It's too complicated to think about, though. You just have to try and retry and retry.

However, for adjacent partials, the three mechanisms just plain old work. Tongue prolly better than the others, but try everything.

ttf_weezerfan4427 · Post by **ttf_weezerfan4427** » Wed May 31, 2017 9:13 pm

I plan on asking professors about embouchre issues, but I understand what you mean, Bailey, about the lull in the air. I've experienced that but I was unsure if that is the correct way to do it.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed May 31, 2017 10:14 pm

It could be mouthpiece but first try to practice with having the sound or pitch in your ear. And right air volume/ use. If you set up your Skype on the computer you could try a call to Doug Elliott and see what he suggest.

Leif

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:57 am

Bruce is exactly right on this one. I had a similar problem until I studied with Doug Elliott. I played a lot of pieces in the 4G and 5G rim/cup depth sizes. He handed me a piece with his XT104N rim on it and my flexibility immediately opened up like this:

(He also revealed to me that I was doing a number of things incorrectly for my physiology, which was actually more useful over the long run as I corrected those issues.)

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:23 am

Have a Skype lesson with Doug Elliott !

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:42 am

Quote from: weezerfan4427 on May 31, 2017, 09:13PMI plan on asking professors about embouchre issues, but I understand what you mean, Bailey, about the lull in the air. I've experienced that but I was unsure if that is the correct way to do it.

If you have an embouchure issue, you should know that not all professors are equally knowledgeable. Doug Elliot has made a careful study of your precise problem and would be the go to guy.

But here's what I've been told is correct about lip slurs.
1. Steady air. Do NOT use a blip in air to assist, either an increase or decrease in flow. Keep it steady.
2. Don't pop the change to the new note. The feeling should be that you gliss into it.
Many people, maybe most, do those two things wrong.

ttf_weezerfan4427 · Post by **ttf_weezerfan4427** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:18 pm

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 01, 2017, 08:42AMIf you have an embouchure issue, you should know that not all professors are equally knowledgeable. Doug Elliot has made a careful study of your precise problem and would be the go to guy.

But here's what I've been told is correct about lip slurs.
1. Steady air. Do NOT use a blip in air to assist, either an increase or decrease in flow. Keep it steady.
2. Don't pop the change to the new note. The feeling should be that you gliss into it.
Many people, maybe most, do those two things wrong.

Thank you for the advice. I will take this to the practice room.

Does anyone know what Doug Elliott charges for a Skype lesson?

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:28 pm

Quote from: weezerfan4427 on Jun 01, 2017, 02:18PMThank you for the advice. I will take this to the practice room.

Does anyone know what Doug Elliott charges for a Skype lesson?

He's quite approachable- you should just get in touch with him and find out.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:36 pm

You could practice more too.

Lip slurs and flexibility are all about shedding wood. It's about finding the right balance between air, mouthpiece pressure, the manipulation of your corners, and jaw position.

The above has 95% to do with shr3dding w00d. The remaining 5% is equipment. The wrong equipment can make equipment 100% of the issue. The right equipment can make equipment 20% of the issue.

I am all about getting the right mouthpiece, but issues with lip slurs from Bb to D to F sounds like practice is the solution. Not necessarily "you need to put in the time!" but more of "you need to play and then think about it, make an adjustment, test it out, and think about that". An embouchure expert could take a lot of the time required out of that, but time spent thinking about what is going on when you play and trying to diagram it out is not wasted time.

I made a quantum leap in my playing the day I felt I was "on" and drew an image of what I felt was going on with my embouchure and air.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:27 pm

The wrong size mouthpiece OR wrong mechanics can make everything difficult, and more practice only makes you better at doing the wrong stuff.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:33 pm

Practice makes permanent!

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:30 pm

Whoops! Apparently not being able to lip slur with a 5G means you need a new mouthpiece or advanced teachings. I revise my advice to "don't practice or try to figure it out on your own". What was I thinking?

I'll just show myself out... oh whoops, just set off the emergency exit alarm... it's the other door...

ttf_weezerfan4427 · Post by **ttf_weezerfan4427** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:40 pm

Harrison,

I understand what you're meaning by practicing more, and I appreciate your insight. I do feel that I've put in a really large amount of time on this without making any progress, and wanted to see if it could have been a larger mechanical error or an equipment issue. I will continue to work diligently on slurs, but love to hear other's opinions on equipment and mechanics. Thanks.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:46 pm

Really, what others have said about someone like Doug taking a look at your playing could be the ticket (I even had that in my first post). I have a feeling that the "break" you describe between partials might be stemming from something fundamental that you've practiced into permanence. I do doubt that it's a mouthpiece solution kind of thing. 4Gs and 5Gs are something that should not inhibit lip slurs.

Practicing mindlessly will make flaws more permanent, not that you are doing that. Experimenting with a critical mind while you are practicing can teach you a lot. I question the teacher who discourages that. How much have you thought about the mechanics and jaw position when you are practicing?

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:37 pm

I think Harrison's advice is very good. As he and others have said, getting in contact with someone like Doug (who has a fantastic reputation for this sort of thing) would be ideal, but failing that I think it would have to be just reassessing how you are practicing the problem.

There is a difference between "playing" trombone and "practicing" trombone.

It is possible that when someone sees you play and can hear the problem they might advise a mouthpiece change but really it would surprise me. I dont believe for a second that if you have a core issue in your technique on the instrument, moving up or down a mouthpiece size will solve it. It might change the issue, but definitely not fix it. Also, simply playing through exercises in the same mindset with the same approach wont change anything.

Why not go into the practice room now, and write on a piece of paper "my problem is not mouthpiece related". Stick it on the wall and face it while you play. Do some extreme experiments. Practice slurs with flutter tongue, practice crescendos through slurs, practice diminuendos through slurs. Practice gissing between notes trying to match that to lip bending notes. Tighten your corners, loosen your corners etc...... in between each exercise, stare at the message you stuck to the wall. Try weird things as well as normal things. Worst thing that can happen is you doscover something that definitely doesn't work. Best thing that can happen is you find something you never knew was so useful and it changes your playing for the better.

I guarantee that if you go into the room with that mindset and commitment to try everything to improve, you will learn things about your playing that you were unaware you were capable of and will also learn where your weaknesses are, but more importantly, how to address them. That will teach you SO much more than buying a new mouthpiece.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:32 am

Quote from: weezerfan4427 on May 31, 2017, 06:24PMHello! I am in need of some feedback regarding flexibility. As I have dedicated this summer's practicing to honing my flexibility/lips slurs around the trombone, I have noticed that I am having continued difficulty ironing out some of the "blips" when moving from the 4th to 6th partials (Bb - F). No matter how slowly and patiently I take it, I seem to have some small bumps when moving up and down through the registers. I am curious if this simply requires more work and time, or if a change in mouthpiece would facilitate my progress.

I currently play on a GB 4GS, which is the rim size of a 4G but cup size of a 5G. I recently moved up to this size from a GB 5G. In doing some experimenting, I did notice that the lip slurs seemed smoother when I played on my Bach 5G that I have, which is why I am curious to hear other's opinions regarding a mouthpiece change. Would this be advisable?

If so, what are recommendations for a change? I am looking for something around the size of a 4, but I really enjoy the tone production and rim comfort of the Greg Black mouthpieces. I have heard some good things about the New York series, as well as the Giddings and Webster mouthpieces. The problem is that I am not in a place to dump the money into trying so many out.

Any advice is appreciated. Thank you for reading and have a great day!

Josh

Josh...are you using the Remington flexibility studies? If not, you should. They are brilliant, and they really concentrate on eliminating the "bump" that others have mentioned when crossing over a partial that is in the middle of two other partials like the 5th partial D between 4th partial Bb and 6th partial F. Like numbers 2 + 5 here. They can be varied in many ways. Great stuff.

S.

P.S. It's not about your m'pce; it's about your air steadiness and coordination in your physical playing system. Also know as "time." Bet on it. I must have a hundred m'pces lying around, and with very few exceptions I can play these exercises pretty much equally well on any m'pce that is a fairly common size for a given horn.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:13 am

For your sized horn, I believe that the Brad Edwards book is also excellent.

Some - like me - might tend to do a bit better on certain rim styles vs others. My flexibility is more difficult on a Dennis Wick Heritage mpc rim style than on a Bach. But as far as rim sizes are concerned, I don't really notice a difference on flexibility exercises between a Bach 12C and a Bach 7C. Maybe it's just me, though. Or maybe those two sizes just happen to match nicely with the slotting on my two principle horns and YMMV.

Anyway, I think you really ought to be getting one-on-one in-person instruction from your teacher on this, rather than trying to tie together a mixed-bag of well-intended instructional posts.

...Geezer

ttf_weezerfan4427 · Post by **ttf_weezerfan4427** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:34 pm

After doing some textbook reading and inquiring locally, I am finding that I am essentially applying too much pressure and moving the jaw too much, making it more difficult for myself to achieve slurs of wider intervals. This was created by my early development of using the mouthpiece to create the necessary pressure for the upper lip to vibrate.

I noticed this by buzzing the mouthpiece, then removing it only to find that I would have a very small opening in the aperture but no lip vibration. Textbook reading helped me to understand that I needed to utilize a balance of both chin and cheek muscle contraction to have the corners of the embouchre set up the vibration of the lips. It looks like I will be doing some heavy embouchre work this summer. I appreciate all of your insight through your analytic comments.

Yes, practice makes permanent.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:56 am

Quote from: weezerfan4427 on Jun 03, 2017, 05:34PMI am finding that I am essentially applying too much pressure and moving the jaw too much, making it more difficult for myself to achieve slurs of wider intervals. This was created by my early development of using the mouthpiece to create the necessary pressure for the upper lip to vibrate.

I noticed this by buzzing the mouthpiece, then removing it only to find that I would have a very small opening in the aperture but no lip vibration.

Yes, practice makes permanent.

So, I am unconvinced that buzzing (especially buzzing incorrectly) is a useful tool for embouchure development or for anything really. Done correctly. ... it works for some people. However, to buzz or not to buzz isn't a debate I want to start. Let's leave it at that and take a look at what you've said in your post.

You describe using the mouthpiece to create the buzz. The mouthpiece by itself has almost no resistance so you must create resistance to get a buzz to happen. You can create this with mouthpiece pressure or with chop tension, but either one is not indicative of the actual resistance of the horn, and either one would create issues when translated to your instrument.

I would caution against using just the mouthpiece alone to diagnose problems that are going on when you are playing the trombone, especially if you are trying to self diagnose. Sam Burtis, who advocates using the mouthpiece and has thought about it and practiced and taught to the point where he wrote an entire book about it (and other things) can self diagnose with the mouthpiece, but most of us probably shouldn't do this. You remove too many factors when you take away the trombone.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:29 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 04, 2017, 06:56AM The mouthpiece by itself has almost no resistance so you must create resistance to get a buzz to happen.

One dimensional thinking.

QuoteThe mouthpiece by itself has almocest no resistan
Uh, compared to what? The .25 opening in the mouthpiece has less resistance than the 8 inch opening at the bell? My measurements (admittedly long ago, and not precise, feel free to make your own) indicate 12/13's of the entire resistance of the horn occurs before the air enters the horn- it's in the embouchure and mouthpiece. I did these measurements by inserting the mouthpiece into a tee-fitting into the horn, and measuring differential pressure at that point.

Secondly, resistance to what? Air flow? Well, feed it less air. Problem solved. In fact, better than problem solved; control of air flow is critical to playing.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:54 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 04, 2017, 05:29PMOne dimensional thinking.
Tim. That was mean. How mean spirited of you

. I will keep my reply informative and light spirited, so that we can have a friendly and thought inspiring discussion that doesn't stray too far from what the OP wanted to know about. A lot of the stuff below applies here to the OP's question in a roundabout way.

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 04, 2017, 05:29PM Uh, compared to what? The .25 opening in the mouthpiece has less resistance than the 8 inch opening at the bell?

Well, if you want to be "one-dimensional" about it, yeah, I guess .25" is less than .547" in the bore (or .500, or .525 or whatever. They are all bigger). However, the diameter of the mouthpiece throat, or whatever the smallest area you need to squeeze air through is just one factor of the resistance on a trombone. Let's take a look at something that has been studied scientifically a great deal more than brass instruments have -- BALLISTICS!

So, believe it or not, if you take the same cartridge (let's say a 5.56 NATO M855 round) and fire it through a 26" barrel, the muzzle velocity will be about 300 feet/sec higher than if you fired it through a 14" barrel. Why is this? Shouldn't the friction of the longer barrel slow the bullet down as it heads out on it's trip (which would also be added resistance, but it's different from the point I'm trying to make)? Well, as it turns out, the barrel is full of air already. When the round goes off, and the bullet starts moving, it creates a pressure wave against the air already in the barrel. The longer the barrel, the more air, the more pressure builds up, and the faster the bullet goes. And that 300f/s is from only a difference of 12".

What does this have to do with a trombone? Well, think about this. Buzzing a mouthpiece is like chambering a round without a barrel attached. Sure, the throat is .25" wide, but it's also only .25" long. The rest of the mouthpiece opens up over 2" until the tube ends, and you enter infinity (the room). So, in total, you have about 3" of tube worth of air that you have to move when you buzz a mouthpiece. A trombone by itself has something like 8 to 12 feet of tubing that is slightly wider in diameter, let's say .547". When you try to buzz a note, you are also moving a pressure wave through 8 to 12 feet worth of air. It doesn't matter that the bell opening is 8". All that matters is that the 8 to 12 feet of tubing is full of air and is .547" in diameter for that entire length. That air will resist your pressure wave, help you to create a buzz, and it's all done via resistance. Adding all that tubing onto the mouthpiece creates a LOT more resistance that the mouthpiece alone, and forces you to create the resistance at your face, throat, diaphragm, whatever, when you buzz the mouthpiece by itself.

So to answer your question "Uh, compared to what?" -- 3" of tube with a chokepoint of .25" has significantly less resistance than 8 to 12 feet of tubing with the same .25" chokepoint and a .547" diameter. The chokepoint is there to make you move air quickly. Once it's sped up, it goes through with little resistance unless the rest of the trombone is attached.

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 04, 2017, 05:29PMSecondly, resistance to what? Air flow? Well, feed it less air. Problem solved. In fact, better than problem solved; control of air flow is critical to playing.
https://youtube.com/v/CMBOyjKxcEQ

Problem not solved. Again, keeping this objective and light hearted, if we take a look at your video that you posted a while back, we can see that you barely use any air at all. I agree that air control is very important to playing the trombone, but that doesn't mean "don't use any air at all". Your video can show us why you believe the trombone doesn't offer any resistance. It's because you are not creating any sort of pressure wave through the bore of the instrument. In ballistics terms, you are chambering a .22lr round in a .308 bore rifle and pulling the trigger. If you instead got rid of the tension in your throat, neck, chops, and diaphragm, and sent tons of air into the bore of the trombone, it would push back on you and create the buzz. From your perspective, I can see exactly why you think the way you do. You have yet to unlock the benefits of throat size, bore size, and leadpipes, etc, because you are not sending enough air through the instrument for the unique resistances of any of those factors to have an effect.

Trying to bring this back into what the OP was asking about, I guess it relates a lot. Lip slurs are a lot easier when your trombone is pushing back on you. If you are pushing air in, and the horn is pushing back, all it takes is very miniscule shifts in the aperture of your embouchure to move up or down through the partials. Have you tried using more air?

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:00 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 05, 2017, 07:54AMTim. That was mean.

Trying to bring this back into what the OP was asking about, I guess it relates a lot. Lip slurs are a lot easier when your trombone is pushing back on you. If you are pushing air in, and the horn is pushing back, all it takes is very miniscule shifts in the aperture of your embouchure to move up or down through the partials. Have you tried using more air?

Apologies. I didn't intend meanness.

Actually, yes, I took the comments about air to heart and I've been moving more, or at least paying attention to the right amount. Part of that is a strength thing, and I'm getting better.

But back to flexibility. Who's one of the most flexible trombonists out there? Ah, could it be Watrous? He doesn't use much air, and his resistance appears to be at his lips.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:08 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 05, 2017, 08:00AM
But back to flexibility. Who's one of the most flexible trombonists out there? Ah, could it be Watrous? He doesn't use much air, and his resistance appears to be at his lips.

Now there we go! This ^. On the surface of it, if you just slice any one of Waltrous' notes in half and look at what's inside, I feel like I don't really like the tone or the sound. I think Waltrous is definitely a player who relies on the microphone, and he has mastered microphone technique. I had heard about a masterclass he gave where an auditor asked him "How come you play with such a tiny sound that you need the mic inside your bell?", and he answered something like "How come you don't sell tons of records like I do every year?"

Taken as a whole, however, with his musical expression and ideas while improvising, Waltrous is fantastic -- it doesn't matter that he doesn't come close to JJ's sound. Waltrous sounds like Waltrous, and that's a great thing. I wish I had what was in his head, but my improv chops are a huge joke.

And he is flexible! You make a good point about that one. I have no idea how his flexibility relates to his air stream.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:48 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 05, 2017, 08:08AMNow there we go! This ^. On the surface of it, if you just slice any one of Waltrous' notes in half and look at what's inside, I feel like I don't really like the tone or the sound. I think Waltrous is definitely a player who relies on the microphone, and he has mastered microphone technique. I had heard about a masterclass he gave where an auditor asked him "How come you play with such a tiny sound that you need the mic inside your bell?", and he answered something like "How come you don't sell tons of records like I do every year?"

Taken as a whole, however, with his musical expression and ideas while improvising, Waltrous is fantastic -- it doesn't matter that he doesn't come close to JJ's sound. Waltrous sounds like Waltrous, and that's a great thing. I wish I had what was in his head, but my improv chops are a huge joke.

And he is flexible! You make a good point about that one. I have no idea how his flexibility relates to his air stream.

I played a great deal w/Bill in his NYC Wildlife Refuge band. I think that his flexibility is entirely a function of airstream control combined with aperture control, and I further think that the fact that he can freebuzz extraordinarily well is a great deal of this secret. He plays a slightly-opened-up-at-the-backbore NY Bach 11C, and he also plays a single-bore (.508) Bach 16 with an opened-up gooseneck...as open-blowing a smallbore Bach as it is possible to make. So...he is providing the resistance mostly at the chop and back of the tongue. His physical "resistance" is not stressed too much because he has such great control of his air. Less air means less necessary resistance to that air.

Combine that with an entirely elegant ear, et voilà.

Bill Watrous.

S.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:21 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 05, 2017, 07:54AM
[edit]...the diameter of the mouthpiece throat, or whatever the smallest area you need to squeeze air through is just one factor of the resistance on a trombone. Let's take a look at something that has been studied scientifically a great deal more than brass instruments have -- BALLISTICS!

So, believe it or not, if you take the same cartridge (let's say a 5.56 NATO M855 round) and fire it through a 26" barrel, the muzzle velocity will be about 300 feet/sec higher than if you fired it through a 14" barrel. Why is this? Shouldn't the friction of the longer barrel slow the bullet down as it heads out on it's trip (which would also be added resistance, but it's different from the point I'm trying to make)? Well, as it turns out, the barrel is full of air already. When the round goes off, and the bullet starts moving, it creates a pressure wave against the air already in the barrel. The longer the barrel, the more air, the more pressure builds up, and the faster the bullet goes. And that 300f/s is from only a difference of 12".

What does this have to do with a trombone? Well, think about this. Buzzing a mouthpiece is like chambering a round without a barrel attached. Sure, the throat is .25" wide, but it's also only .25" long. The rest of the mouthpiece opens up over 2" until the tube ends, and you enter infinity (the room). So, in total, you have about 3" of tube worth of air that you have to move when you buzz a mouthpiece. A trombone by itself has something like 8 to 12 feet of tubing that is slightly wider in diameter, let's say .547". When you try to buzz a note, you are also moving a pressure wave through 8 to 12 feet worth of air. It doesn't matter that the bell opening is 8". All that matters is that the 8 to 12 feet of tubing is full of air and is .547" in diameter for that entire length. That air will resist your pressure wave, help you to create a buzz, and it's all done via resistance. Adding all that tubing onto the mouthpiece creates a LOT more resistance that the mouthpiece alone, and forces you to create the resistance at your face, throat, diaphragm, whatever, when you buzz the mouthpiece by itself.

So to answer your question "Uh, compared to what?" -- 3" of tube with a chokepoint of .25" has significantly less resistance than 8 to 12 feet of tubing with the same .25" chokepoint and a .547" diameter. The chokepoint is there to make you move air quickly. Once it's sped up, it goes through with little resistance unless the rest of the trombone is attached.

[edit]...I agree that air control is very important to playing the trombone, but that doesn't mean "don't use any air at all". Your video can show us why you believe the trombone doesn't offer any resistance. It's because you are not creating any sort of pressure wave through the bore of the instrument. In ballistics terms, you are chambering a .22lr round in a .308 bore rifle and pulling the trigger. If you instead got rid of the tension in your throat, neck, chops, and diaphragm, and sent tons of air into the bore of the trombone, it would push back on you and create the buzz. From your perspective, I can see exactly why you think the way you do. You have yet to unlock the benefits of throat size, bore size, and leadpipes, etc, because you are not sending enough air through the instrument for the unique resistances of any of those factors to have an effect.

Trying to bring this back into what the OP was asking about, I guess it relates a lot. Lip slurs are a lot easier when your trombone is pushing back on you. If you are pushing air in, and the horn is pushing back, all it takes is very miniscule shifts in the aperture of your embouchure to move up or down through the partials. Have you tried using more air?

Something I normally do not do, I just did. For the sake of simplicity and my own ear drums, I edited Harrison's post to prequel my reply. I hope I did not alter his contextual meaning!

Anyway. WOW! I really like your analogies!!!!!!! Something to think about!

...Geezer

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:46 am

He's wrong though.

He picked an isolated case where the math works out.

Take the .22LR instead. It maximizes velocity in about 14 inches. Put it in a 20 inch barrel, and you lose about 150 feet per second. It's a little quieter though. (I didn't look up the exact figures, this is from memory. It's pretty close though.)

Take a black powder rifle. There's a reason they have very long barrels. It depends a bit on caliber and projectile, but you need 30 inches to burn it all for .50 roundball.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:22 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 06, 2017, 08:46AMHe's wrong though.

He picked an isolated case where the math works out.

Take the .22LR instead. It maximizes velocity in about 14 inches. Put it in a 20 inch barrel, and you lose about 150 feet per second. It's a little quieter though. (I didn't look up the exact figures, this is from memory. It's pretty close though.)

Take a black powder rifle. There's a reason they have very long barrels. It depends a bit on caliber and projectile, but you need 30 inches to burn it all for .50 roundball.

Details. Details. Details. The mental concept is pretty nice. Mostly, I learn more from metaphor, anecdote or analogy than actual facts. Facts can get in the way and usually end up being wrong eventually anyway. Societies are usually built on what gets eventually proven to be antiquated science.

OBTW; the above is not a political statement. It is a philosophical statement.

...Geezer

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:39 am

I fail to see the acoustical analogy between a gun barrel and a trombone, especially as the flares are so different.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:44 am

Quote from: oslide on Jun 06, 2017, 09:39AMI fail to see the acoustical analogy between a gun barrel and a trombone, especially as the flares are so different.

That's okay. I fail to see the wisdom in the "faster air" meme that is usually touted on a discussion of this topic. Dif'rent concepts for dif'rent minds.

I don't have a problem with the concept behind that meme; focusing the embouchure, arching the tongue, blowing a whistle as opposed to fogging a mirror, etc. I mostly have a problem with the more introverted among us who crack the door open, whisper "faster air" and then slam the door shut before anyone can ask what that meme means.

...Geezer

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:07 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 06, 2017, 08:46AMHe's wrong though.
nope. I'm not.

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 06, 2017, 08:46AMHe picked an isolated case where the math works out.

Take the .22LR instead. It maximizes velocity in about 14 inches. Put it in a 20 inch barrel, and you lose about 150 feet per second. It's a little quieter though. (I didn't look up the exact figures, this is from memory. It's pretty close though.)
This just means that after a certain length the barrel's resistance will exceed the maximum pressure that a standard .22lr can create in the chamber and the bullet will begin to slow down again. The 14" barrel will be faster than a 5" barrel, though. In any case, you still are supporting what I'm saying about resistance through a long tube .

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:27 am

But you're still obsessing over resistance to air flow, and I'm not sure at all that this is the resistance we feel.

It is quite possible to play the trombone without any air going down the tube, as we've discussed before. What does that do to flexibility, I wonder?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:53 am

An exhaust pipe is a far better and more relevant analogy. Smaller pipes may seem like they would have more resistance, but they flow better because the greater velocity of the flowing air helps "acoustically" to pull exhaust out of the cylinder with each pulse of the exhaust valve opening. Exactly like the pulses of the lip vibration. If the pipe (bore size) is bigger, the flow velocity isn't there and it takes more power to push the exhaust out. It's a balance between size of engine and size of exhaust to get the greatest efficiency. Part of the same reason high range is easier on smaller horns.

At this point I've lost the original point, and you guys have gotten far away from the intent of the OP's topic.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:52 pm

Yes.

The OP asked about difficulty in a slow slur of a fifth.

But my brain went to fast flexibilities, because I'd just seen somebody doing one much faster than I can.

And it went downhill from there.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:55 pm

Quote from: weezerfan4427 on May 31, 2017, 06:24PMHello! I am in need of some feedback regarding flexibility. As I have dedicated this summer's practicing to honing my flexibility/lips slurs around the trombone, I have noticed that I am having continued difficulty ironing out some of the "blips" when moving from the 4th to 6th partials (Bb - F). No matter how slowly and patiently I take it, I seem to have some small bumps when moving up and down through the registers. I am curious if this simply requires more work and time, or if a change in mouthpiece would facilitate my progress.

I currently play on a GB 4GS, which is the rim size of a 4G but cup size of a 5G. I recently moved up to this size from a GB 5G. In doing some experimenting, I did notice that the lip slurs seemed smoother when I played on my Bach 5G that I have, which is why I am curious to hear other's opinions regarding a mouthpiece change. Would this be advisable?

If so, what are recommendations for a change? I am looking for something around the size of a 4, but I really enjoy the tone production and rim comfort of the Greg Black mouthpieces. I have heard some good things about the New York series, as well as the Giddings and Webster mouthpieces. The problem is that I am not in a place to dump the money into trying so many out.

Any advice is appreciated. Thank you for reading and have a great day!

Josh

Well, taken literally, we certainly fulfilled THAT part of his request! lol

A good instructor will not only watch you play and then tell you what to either do or not do; he will be ready, willing and able to demonstrate as well. Mine does and then there is clearly no doubt as to how I should proceed. Then it is up to you to immediately put horn to face - in his presence - and see if that is what he meant. If you don't have an instructor like that, you should find one, even if you have to go a distance.

...Geezer

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:29 pm

Brass guys talk about resistance as if it's something they push against and can see like the diameter of a mouthpiece throat.

Meanwhile there's the resistance of the vibration, which will require them to take the root of negative one in order to sort it out. Every discontinuity in the pipe will throw up a reflection, changing not only the sound (the forment) but the feel of the system experienced as this vibratory reactance.

Bruce?

weezerfan is probably wondering what the heck happened to his request for help...

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:42 pm

I do fluid flow in pipes and ducts, not movement of sound waves

(And they are NOT the same thing.)

A change in mouthpiece should be done with the help of a savvy teacher and not just because you can't his [insert note here]. Most often the problems like this are much more on the "soft side" than the "hard side" (to use some Burtis terminology).

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:13 am

Sure.

Measure a quart of water.

Pour it through a mouthpiece.

Record the time it takes.

Compare to other mouthpieces.

But that only measures resistance to flow, which is probably not what we perceive as resistance in general.

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:18 am

Quote from: baileyman on Jun 08, 2017, 07:29PMEvery discontinuity in the pipe will throw up a reflection, changing not only the sound (the forment) but the feel of the system experienced as this vibratory reactance.

This makes me wonder... Should a basic part of the QA process for modern trombone building include the use of a borescope to inspect the horn from the inside?

--Andy in OKC

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:20 am

Quote from: afugate on Jun 09, 2017, 05:18AMThis makes me wonder... Should a basic part of the QA process for modern trombone building include the use of a borescope to inspect the horn from the inside?

--Andy in OKC

No. Discontinuities are unavoidable. Every bend, every change of diameter, every spit valve, etc.

You could do a swept frequency measurement of the impedance curves, and compare that to your standard curve from a good trombone.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:20 am

Quote from: afugate on Jun 09, 2017, 05:18AMThis makes me wonder... Should a basic part of the QA process for modern trombone building include the use of a borescope to inspect the horn from the inside?

--Andy in OKC

No. Discontinuities are unavoidable. Every bend, every change of diameter, every spit valve, etc.

You could do a swept frequency measurement of the impedance curves, and compare that to your standard curve from a good trombone.