TromboneChat

This may come across as a dumb question, but what is it about Greg blacks that make them sound the way do? How would you describe the sound? I would just like to hear people's thoughts about this.

I imagine that what makes them sound the way they do is approximately:

3.28% outer shape, incl rim width/shape, cup shape, and inner dimensions of the shank. Especially if the shank is the wrong bore size. If you tried using a large bore GB mouthpiece in, say, a king 2B, then this percentage would go up to nearly 100%.
2.76% mouthpiece weight distribution, determined by the outer shape and what the mouthpiece is made out of.
93.639% the player, their practice regimen, and the approach they take to playing not just the mouthpiece, but the entire system, with special emphasis on phrasing and musical taste.
.321% magic sauce

The percentages above assume that the mouthpiece is matched to the right trombone, and that we've taken the trombone out of the equation. Very scientific, you know.

As far as sound goes, I've heard people sound like Joe Alessi when playing Greg Black mouthpieces, and I've heard people sound like amateur musicians with not the greatest tone. Try as I might, I couldn't figure out a way to reconcile this disparity -- everyone should sound like Joe Alessi if they are on his equipment, right? Once I tried adding in the percentage for the effect the player had, overall, I think I was able to reconcile it.

I don't know, there might be up to 0.573% magic sauce.

It is likely the whole package - rim contour, mass in the right places , etc. that make GB mouthpieces sound the way they do.

You can take an accomplished player and set several mps in front of him/her and s/he is likely to sound good on all of them, but probably different on each one. Each one is likely to feel and respond differently to the player as well.

In the end, mouthpiece makers and those who study mps are probably the only ones who know for sure why a particular design is so good; GB has simply mastered a design that works for allot of people. I get your curiosity, but I doubt you'll ever find a satisfying answer.

bimmerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:30 pm I don't know, there might be up to 0.573% magic sauce.

There may be a variance bracket. These are all being worked on at large particle collider. I think.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:52 pm

bimmerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:30 pm I don't know, there might be up to 0.573% magic sauce.

There may be a variance bracket. These are all being worked on at large particle collider. I think.

It's definitely 500% magic sauce

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Schlitz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:44 am I’d say Greg wears a size 11, maybe 11.5. Standard D width.

Exactly.

The guy asked a serious question and most of what he's gotten are ridiculous answers. Don't you see that deters people from posting their questions? It is inquiries like his that can make for interesting discussions and make this forum grow. What you're doing doesn't contribute at all to making a rich and interesting site.

In the case of this question, I believe my answer does hit all the points. The outer shape and weight distribution are what affects the sound of a mouthpiece the most, after the ability of the player and acknowledging that a mouthpiece that doesn't actually fit the receiver will be affected the most. There really are pieces that just have plain old magic sauce.

My tongue in cheek manner of delivery answers the other side of the question -- it is a very broad question.

"Why do books published by Random House have plots that read the way they do?"

What mouthpiece? GB makes every conceivable size, weight, and inner shape of mouthpiece you can think of. What makes his 12C sound the way it does is different than what makes his NY 1.5 sound the way it does.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:35 am In the case of this question, I believe my answer does hit all the points. The outer shape and weight distribution are what affects the sound of a mouthpiece the most, after the ability of the player and acknowledging that a mouthpiece that doesn't actually fit the receiver will be affected the most. There really are pieces that just have plain old magic sauce.

My tongue in cheek manner of delivery answers the other side of the question -- it is a very broad question.

"Why do books published by Random House have plots that read the way they do?"

What mouthpiece? GB makes every conceivable size, weight, and inner shape of mouthpiece you can think of. What makes his 12C sound the way it does is different than what makes his NY 1.5 sound the way it does.

For me, the black mouthpieces just have lots of core to the sound. I just like to know what others think.

Mouthpiece makers/designers, just like instrument makers/designers, have a philosophy of how to do things and what the end result should be for their products. One poster states that GB mpcs provide more core to the sound. (That, of course, depends on what you mean by “core.”) So GB produces mpcs that sound like they have more core to the sound.

Another thing to consider: GB produces mpcs that are in line with the current aesthetic of sound. Before that, Bach and Schilke were the Major mpcs makers, and the sound aesthetic was geared towards what players sounded like using that equipment. IOW, it’s the sound in vogue. Maybe in a few years it will change again.

The idea that the interior of a mouthpiece makes a negligible difference is... frankly kind of silly. If the difference between a 12C and a 0G is "3.28%" then there would be basically no point in really being selective about a mouthpiece at all and you may as well play a single mouthpiece for everything, let alone a single rim. Certainly the dichotomy in that other thread we have going about finding an appropriate piece for a horn would not fall into the idea that one should find an entire piece vs. an underpart with a similar or identical rim. Clearly having a piece fit appropriately into the receiver and practicing on it is not 95% of what makes a mouthpiece a mouthpiece.

As far as what makes Greg Black's pieces special, it's what makes any other mouthpiece especial... it has a design that people like. Some of his pieces are totally original, some are partial copies of other things that he's tweaked. But I don't think there's anything particular that is done or applicable to every mouthpiece in his lineup.

Serious discussion here: To me, I thought I was being generous with my percentages. Is not what makes a mouthpiece sound the way it does nearly entirely up to the player? In another thread, people are saying that individuals will basically sound like themselves, regardless of equipment. We all know there are differences between mouthpieces. So if there are differences, but we all basically will sound the way we do, how much sway does the mouthpiece design really have on overall sound? Between shape and weight, more than 10%?

Probably something like 10 percent.

I just recorded myself on 13 different bass trombone mouthpieces. I sound like me in all of the recordings, but the sound changes pretty drastically to the trained ear. That "drastic" change is probably not a lot in the grand scheme of things, of course.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:53 pm Probably something like 10 percent.

I just recorded myself on 13 different bass trombone mouthpieces. I sound like me in all of the recordings, but the sound changes pretty drastically to the trained ear. That "drastic" change is probably not a lot in the grand scheme of things, of course.

Will you post that on your channel, maybe? That'd be interesting to hear.

I wonder what differences I'd hear, and what differences a non musician (music lover) would identify

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:48 pm Serious discussion here: To me, I thought I was being generous with my percentages. Is not what makes a mouthpiece sound the way it does nearly entirely up to the player? In another thread, people are saying that individuals will basically sound like themselves, regardless of equipment. We all know there are differences between mouthpieces. So if there are differences, but we all basically will sound the way we do, how much sway does the mouthpiece design really have on overall sound? Between shape and weight, more than 10%?

Of course the player and their physiology and muscle memory come into play but there is still a huge amount from the mouthpiece. Not to be contrarian, but I'd say it's probably closer to 80%-90% mouthpiece for a few reasons. The first is that comparisons between two similar mouthpieces eliminate the distinction between pieces by shifting how one is measuring. Naturally two pieces that are nominally the same are going to be really similar no matter what and two pieces that have a huge variance are going to, well, not be similar no matter how much practice the player puts in. I will never play lead in a big band on a 1G.

The second is that, in many cases, the rims are different between piece to piece. A Greg Black 5G might be 100% copy up to the rim but if the part that interfaces with the flesh is more comfortable or otherwise different, it may provide a huge advantage over another.

For example, I have an ST104N rim that Doug custom made for me that I use on a C+ underpart. I have to practice that a LOT to not chip notes because its just a little wider than my usual XT104N. I have a similar problem with just an XT104. I lose a sizeable chunk of flexibility and stamina. I accidentally did the first tune of a rehearsal on the ST104N a few weeks ago and chipped like, 25% of the notes (I think it was on maybe Shiny Stockings or similar... whole thing was basically treble clef). Soon as it ended I checked and switched to the normal piece, next run through didn't miss anything. That's a huge difference. Can I practice it away? Yeah, as stated. But given the rim changes are near immediate and the additional practice takes hours of maintenance for the same result, I would be very reluctant to concede that the internal dimensions are at least worth 60+% of the "equation".

The final part that I like to beat the horse to death over quite a bit is the placebo. That isn't to say that Greg's pieces aren't great, nor even that a similar pieces of his might be much better than an alternative (for reason #2 in particular)... but the placebo effect is really strong. Wanting something to be true or believing it to be true can demonstrably have effects similar to prescription medication. If you think that someone purchasing $200 worth of brass won't want to retroactively justify their purchase, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell!

But now if you're talking about rim size, that is a different can of worms. I believe that the rim size is pretty independent from the rest of the way the mouthpiece will respond -- if you are playing on a rim that doesn't fit your face, then we can make the rim 100% of the equation, just like shank size. I would sound like garbage on a 12C, even if I had one for my small bore. Think the Doug Elliott system.

Any part of the mouthpiece can have a near 100% effect on the overall sound if it is a dimension that flat out doesn't make sense. The perfect rim with a 4" deep cup would be the same problem.

Exactly! An extreme of any dimension in isolation causing a near 100% effect on sound means that it is an important part of the equation, not an inconsequential part. The corollary argument would be: practice has a negligible effect on sound quality because in the extreme case of someone never practicing, their lack of practice would have nearly a 100% effect on their sound.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:50 pm But now if you're talking about rim size, that is a different can of worms. I believe that the rim size is pretty independent from the rest of the way the mouthpiece will respond -- if you are playing on a rim that doesn't fit your face, then we can make the rim 100% of the equation, just like shank size. I would sound like garbage on a 12C, even if I had one for my small bore. Think the Doug Elliott system.

Any part of the mouthpiece can have a near 100% effect on the overall sound if it is a dimension that flat out doesn't make sense. The perfect rim with a 4" deep cup would be the same problem.

Definitely agree. Wide and super rounded rims are awful for me regardless of size.

You guys need to go practice

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^ so you took the time to look up a 3 year old thread to just shit on the people that like the mouthpieces and the maker of them?
How boring is your life?

drbucher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:14 am The placebo effect (and confirmation bias) is alive and well: people spend too much on mouthpieces, then convince themselves they're not a waste of money.
If Denis Wick's mouthpieces are good enough for him, they're good enough for me, and he doesn't sell them for $229 because they're shaped differently .Made by a trombonist for trombonists, at a reasonable price.

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Not really, it is still pretty relevant. Multiple makers that happen to visit this site have had problems with you and the way you act. Sometimes people show be called out for trolling like you did.
Taking the time to find a 3 year old thread just to talk to “crap” makes you a very “not good” person.
Does the removal of crass words make it more polite really?
Oh and your edited your post twice to make it sound nicer after my post. Nice try gaslighting.

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drbucher wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:20 am You still do not address my points.

Please feel free to dip out.

drbucher wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:20 am You still do not address my points.

Because they aren’t worth my time. Talking trash to a troll is.
Also, you deleted your original points.

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drbucher wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:51 am The dignity of this forum requires it.

I did genuflect before logging on

drbucher wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:51 am My points are preserved above. Address them, if you can. The dignity of this forum requires it.

Ok. Those of us that have higher standards are willing to spend more on a mouthpiece. Tada!

drbucher wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:51 am My points are preserved above. Address them, if you can. The dignity of this forum requires it.

What points? That someone who pays a lot for a mouthpiece will find it works well? Sure. Sometimes it actually does and sometimes you just think it does (and thus it will).

Denis Wick makes his mouthpieces so he likes them. So do a lot of other people (including me). But not everyone works with his mouthpieces. That's why there are so many out there. For example, Joe Alessi like a very wide cup diameter with a relatively shallow cup. Works for him -- he sounds fantastic. Work for me? Probably not.

Fact remains, we are all different and we all have different sound concepts. If only one mouthpiece/horn/microphone/etc. worked best for everybody we'd all be using it.

Please be more gentlemanly and don't take an attitude or you will find yourself locked out of the Forum.

drbucher wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:45 am Your splenetic vent, which did not address my points but did attack me personally using crass language, is now irrelevant. Show some decorum, and feel free to spend $229 on a mouthpiece.

Feel free to tell us more about how tapping the bell of a trombone with a mouthpiece will help ascertain its acoustical properties, as you have in the past. Maybe you are also someone who believes that if a mouthpiece "pops" an octave when tapped on the hand with both ends means it is a good one?

You seem to be very fond of players like Jay Friedman and Denis Wick, and the old "if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me" argument. It is and never was a question of "good", but "right" for the person. Something that is optimal for Denis Wick or Jay Friedman may not work well at all for someone else and their setup.

I will also say that it is somewhat interesting that you are so vehement about mentioning Jay Friedman, and the fact that you own a Trombone model he used for a few years, but make no mention of his own signature mouthpieces designed and made by custom maker Karl Hammond.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:39 am I will also say that it is somewhat interesting that you are so vehement about mentioning Jay Friedman, and the fact that you own a Trombone model he used for a few years, but make no mention of his own signature mouthpieces designed and made by custom maker Karl Hammond.

Or Parke... Or Brassark...

Is this a new low thread wise? If not, it must be close.

Different strokes for different folks. That’s what they used to say 50 years ago.

A mpc story. I bought a Griego Alessi at an Alessi seminar that was fitted and recommended by the great man himself (Christan, not Joe). The following spring I was in London and I went to Parker’s to try horns. I forgot my mpc at the hotel. The store provided a Schilke 51. Hmmmm…

The hilarious part of the insulation that I would only have one $230 mouthpiece. I’ve crossed that bridge long ago.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:21 am The hilarious part of the insulation that I would only have one $230 mouthpiece. I’ve crossed that bridge long ago.

I haven't, if only because Laskey, Hammond, and Ferguson mouthpieces were all under $230 when I started buying them. I did used to have a G&W Euros, but I never got along with it.

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drbucher wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:01 pm I have not called anyone a "troll", or used obscene language, or invited anyone to "dip out". I had seriously considered buying a Greg Black mouthpiece, until I read some earlier comments, which were very helpful.

That's because you're the one trolling.

Trombonechat strikes again.

Please folks - let it go. This stuff is not fun - or enlightening - to read.

Aren't we all here to help, and educate, each other?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:03 pm Please folks - let it go. This stuff is not fun - or enlightening - to read.

Aren't we all here to help, and educate, each other?

I’m just trying to imagine two people going head to head in person, getting worked up over trombone mouthpieces and how much they cost. The things we do with a keyboard…

Jmloudon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:03 am I’m just trying to imagine two people going head to head in person, getting worked up over trombone mouthpieces and how much they cost. The things we do with a keyboard…

TromboneChat is my only "social medium." Sort of like Twitter for trombonists - but longer-winded!

Thanks to many of you, I have learned a lot about trombones here. And personalities.

The acrimonious debates and occasional uncivil spats detract from the pleasure.

Please let's keep it positive and maintain the flow of information.

And remember to use big words and genuflect before posting in this sacred place.

"Scrimfulentularious vent" would have been my choice of words.

Anyone with experience of Blacks with DE rims? I have a “vintage” 4M, just about to cut it up!

conn88Hagmann wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:09 am Anyone with experience of Blacks with DE rims? I have a “vintage” 4M, just about to cut it up!

Yes me, Greg does a superb job of matching DE rims to his Mpc's