Hi,
I've been following a daily routine with range-building exercises that seems to be working out well (recommended by my jazz trombone teacher). But I just watched a video tonight by Christian Lindberg who suggested doing his exercise every other day, not daily. I was wondering what people thought about how frequently and how much to train high register? Is it just a common sense thing where you monitor your fatigue in the embouchure muscles? I understand that they are muscles and get stronger when they are resting, not when working. But there's a consensus in the weight-training world that some muscles, like calfs, can be trained every day, while others need a day or two rest.
As always thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Pete
How frequently can you train your high register?
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ttf_peteriley
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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How frequently can you train your high register?
I dont think its black and white... unfortunately the old phrase "what works for you" definitely applies here, but I think you need to spend a LOT of hours in the practice room experimenting to find out what does work for you and what doesn't.
Personally, I don't really think about my register in terms of high and low, just what notes I need to cover on a daily basis. In my own routines, I will do a variety of exercises that cover the range of the instrument. I think that for tenor and Bass being able to play up to a high "F" and down to a contra pedal "C" is an important goal to set. I will do a variety of slur, articulation and interval exercises every day going up and down to those notes because it gives me confidence that they are all achievable in a relaxed and easy fashion regardless of whether I feel like my face feels "good" or not. As soon as I start thinking "thats a high note" or "thats very low..." I start thinking about other issues that go along with playing those notes rather than just making music.
Having said that, if I have had an unusually big day of playing or an audition/performance, I will consciously spend less time in the extreme registers both high and low. I dont ignore them because there are plenty of instances where your chops will not feel great but you will be required to perform in the extreme registers. Its important to be able to still perform there even if you feel like your chops are fatigued or unresponsive. Just be smart about it and don't over do it.
Practice so that you can be prepared for anything regardless of how your face feels, but also pay a bit of attention to know when enough is enough. A good thing to remember is that an audience or audition panel simply does not care how your face feels. Only if you are capable of playing what is required or not. Lindberg has found a way that works for him. I wouldnt stress to much over it if your way is different.
Also..... I would be careful about comparing trombone to weight lifting... if it works for you thats fine, but I think it could clutter your head with thoughts and concepts that might not really be very helpful.
Personally, I don't really think about my register in terms of high and low, just what notes I need to cover on a daily basis. In my own routines, I will do a variety of exercises that cover the range of the instrument. I think that for tenor and Bass being able to play up to a high "F" and down to a contra pedal "C" is an important goal to set. I will do a variety of slur, articulation and interval exercises every day going up and down to those notes because it gives me confidence that they are all achievable in a relaxed and easy fashion regardless of whether I feel like my face feels "good" or not. As soon as I start thinking "thats a high note" or "thats very low..." I start thinking about other issues that go along with playing those notes rather than just making music.
Having said that, if I have had an unusually big day of playing or an audition/performance, I will consciously spend less time in the extreme registers both high and low. I dont ignore them because there are plenty of instances where your chops will not feel great but you will be required to perform in the extreme registers. Its important to be able to still perform there even if you feel like your chops are fatigued or unresponsive. Just be smart about it and don't over do it.
Practice so that you can be prepared for anything regardless of how your face feels, but also pay a bit of attention to know when enough is enough. A good thing to remember is that an audience or audition panel simply does not care how your face feels. Only if you are capable of playing what is required or not. Lindberg has found a way that works for him. I wouldnt stress to much over it if your way is different.
Also..... I would be careful about comparing trombone to weight lifting... if it works for you thats fine, but I think it could clutter your head with thoughts and concepts that might not really be very helpful.
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ttf_BGuttman
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Let's also differentiate between range building and range maintenance.
Range building, where you play high to failure, requires a rest period of a day after a workout.
Range maintenance, where you aren't pushing things, can be done daily (although it doesn't have to).
Range building, where you play high to failure, requires a rest period of a day after a workout.
Range maintenance, where you aren't pushing things, can be done daily (although it doesn't have to).
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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How frequently can you train your high register?
In a very general sense, every other day is a good idea when building strength, but it depends on what and how much you're doing.
High range is only partly about strength... it's equally (or more) about form and finesse, which should be worked on every day in many different ways.
High range is only partly about strength... it's equally (or more) about form and finesse, which should be worked on every day in many different ways.
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ttf_peteriley
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Hi Doug, Bruce,
Thanks for the comments. It makes sense. I can appreciate the differences between maintenance and building. The "maintenance" probably comes from playing my normal pieces, and the "building" from doing more specific high range exercises to the point of fatigue. I'll try to work those in every other day and see how that goes.
Cheers, Pete
Thanks for the comments. It makes sense. I can appreciate the differences between maintenance and building. The "maintenance" probably comes from playing my normal pieces, and the "building" from doing more specific high range exercises to the point of fatigue. I'll try to work those in every other day and see how that goes.
Cheers, Pete
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ttf_peteriley
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jun 08, 2017, 09:26PMI dont think its black and white... unfortunately the old phrase "what works for you" definitely applies here, but I think you need to spend a LOT of hours in the practice room experimenting to find out what does work for you and what doesn't.
Right, and that's what I've been doing. But I wanted to get some insight from people who've spent more time practicing than me
I am noticing days that my lips are just not responsive, probably from back to back rehearsals/concerts. In that sense, I like the weight-training analogy, but I agree with you that I shouldn't take it too far.
Right, and that's what I've been doing. But I wanted to get some insight from people who've spent more time practicing than me
I am noticing days that my lips are just not responsive, probably from back to back rehearsals/concerts. In that sense, I like the weight-training analogy, but I agree with you that I shouldn't take it too far.
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Sure. I mean that goes without saying, its always beneficial to hear new ideas!
I dint think your lips being unresponsive is abnormal... everyone has days where things are a little harder to get working than others. I think anyone who says their lips feel great all the time is doing it wrong or simply not playing enough.
As I think I already said, if I were you and had my lips feeling terrible after back to back whatever, I would still do a small amount of playing in extreme registers but not push or force anything to work. This still applies if you are "building" range. Do an excersise up as far or down as far as you can just to get your body used to the idea that its normal. Your body will adapt. On a day you feel "good" spend more time refining those registers.
I dint think your lips being unresponsive is abnormal... everyone has days where things are a little harder to get working than others. I think anyone who says their lips feel great all the time is doing it wrong or simply not playing enough.
As I think I already said, if I were you and had my lips feeling terrible after back to back whatever, I would still do a small amount of playing in extreme registers but not push or force anything to work. This still applies if you are "building" range. Do an excersise up as far or down as far as you can just to get your body used to the idea that its normal. Your body will adapt. On a day you feel "good" spend more time refining those registers.
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ttf_baileyman
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 08, 2017, 10:46PMIn a very general sense, every other day is a good idea when building strength, but it depends on what and how much you're doing.
High range is only partly about strength... it's equally (or more) about form and finesse, which should be worked on every day in many different ways.
Doug describes my experience. It seems repetition is key when developing skill. When acquiring a new note, it's hard to remember that feeling that worked. So I approach it frequently to try to get it into my soul. Every day at least a little works for me.
High range is only partly about strength... it's equally (or more) about form and finesse, which should be worked on every day in many different ways.
Doug describes my experience. It seems repetition is key when developing skill. When acquiring a new note, it's hard to remember that feeling that worked. So I approach it frequently to try to get it into my soul. Every day at least a little works for me.
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ttf_LowrBrass
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How frequently can you train your high register?
I'm an older-ish amateur, and I have neither the time nor the strength nor the resilience to train at a high professional level.
In my experience, I have found it more helpful to integrate rest days than to push my limit every day.
When I push my limit every day, my limit gets lower and lower and lower. I finally realize what's going on, I give myself time off to heal, I come back... and I'm right back where I started before training.
In my head, I do draw comparisons between range training to running.
When I started running (and when I started range training), I just kinda went at it, full-force. In both cases, that worked for a month or so before my body rebelled and everything fell apart. These days I try to be smart (and gentle) about my training for both hobbies.
I may only run three times a week, but I cross-train in between runs (i.e. Bruce's "maintenance" in between "building").
When I push myself to my limit every day, I don't give my body sufficient time to build itself back up, and I end up with injuries. I try to listen to my body now.
When I plan to run a race, I know not to push myself too hard the days leading up to the race. The real "training" already happened in the months leading up to the race; therefore, the week before, I just want to let myself recover, so I can be at my strongest when it really matters. I may do a couple short sprints so my legs remember how to move, but nothing too intense.
I use the same mindset/approach for the days leading up to playing an important/scary gig.
Here's another thing: "high range" for a less-trained amateur like me = [*miss* *miss* *miss* *miss* *squeeeak*]; "There, I hit the note!"
I'm sure my form is awful, but I HIT THE NOTE, and that's what matters, right?!
If we're still figuring out the basics of how to hit the note, we probably haven't figured out what "form and finesse" it takes to hit the note yet. And it may take a long time before we really understand the "form and finesse" such that we can isolate it and work on it independent of, say, brute strength.
(Personally, I'm still in the process of wrapping my head around the "form and finesse," but now that I have the strength to stay up there a little longer, I'm slowly developing a better understanding of it... I think.)
In my experience, I have found it more helpful to integrate rest days than to push my limit every day.
When I push my limit every day, my limit gets lower and lower and lower. I finally realize what's going on, I give myself time off to heal, I come back... and I'm right back where I started before training.
In my head, I do draw comparisons between range training to running.
When I started running (and when I started range training), I just kinda went at it, full-force. In both cases, that worked for a month or so before my body rebelled and everything fell apart. These days I try to be smart (and gentle) about my training for both hobbies.
I may only run three times a week, but I cross-train in between runs (i.e. Bruce's "maintenance" in between "building").
When I push myself to my limit every day, I don't give my body sufficient time to build itself back up, and I end up with injuries. I try to listen to my body now.
When I plan to run a race, I know not to push myself too hard the days leading up to the race. The real "training" already happened in the months leading up to the race; therefore, the week before, I just want to let myself recover, so I can be at my strongest when it really matters. I may do a couple short sprints so my legs remember how to move, but nothing too intense.
I use the same mindset/approach for the days leading up to playing an important/scary gig.
Here's another thing: "high range" for a less-trained amateur like me = [*miss* *miss* *miss* *miss* *squeeeak*]; "There, I hit the note!"
I'm sure my form is awful, but I HIT THE NOTE, and that's what matters, right?!
If we're still figuring out the basics of how to hit the note, we probably haven't figured out what "form and finesse" it takes to hit the note yet. And it may take a long time before we really understand the "form and finesse" such that we can isolate it and work on it independent of, say, brute strength.
(Personally, I'm still in the process of wrapping my head around the "form and finesse," but now that I have the strength to stay up there a little longer, I'm slowly developing a better understanding of it... I think.)
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Smart, prudent and resourceful!
...Geezer
...Geezer
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ttf_bonenick
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 08, 2017, 10:46PMIn a very general sense, every other day is a good idea when building strength, but it depends on what and how much you're doing.
High range is only partly about strength... it's equally (or more) about form and finesse, which should be worked on every day in many different ways.
+1. Fine muscle and breathing control. not so much about brute force and power. I found that if daily routines are done with frequent and short break it gives me better results on building up higher range and stamina than long but fewer breaks in the practice sessions.
High range is only partly about strength... it's equally (or more) about form and finesse, which should be worked on every day in many different ways.
+1. Fine muscle and breathing control. not so much about brute force and power. I found that if daily routines are done with frequent and short break it gives me better results on building up higher range and stamina than long but fewer breaks in the practice sessions.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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How frequently can you train your high register?
In that video, Lindberg was describing a very specific routine to develop a very specific, memorized piece of music called Troorkh. In that piece you are required to play for an extended period of time, and within that time you have to play something like 50+ F5s ( 
) and two or three G5s ( 
). It's almost like he is describing training something like a set obstacle course that you practice over and over again until you can do it blindfolded.
A lot of what he was talking about applies to regular playing, but a lot of it doesn't. I think you can work on building range every day if you want, but it depends on your goals. For some, a G above the staff is something that seems like it is in the stratosphere. I doubt it would hurt to work on that G every day.
If your goal is to be able to consistently play a C5 above middle C, I think you can work on that every day. There shouldn't be any issues with this, unless you are fundamentally approaching the upper register in a flawed way. If you can play a C all day long, I really don't see an issue with working on a D5 every day, and so on.
A program like David Vinings Range Songs would allow you to work on your range every day, to develop it to the point that you're good to play two or three of your top highest notes in a given piece on demand.
However, if you are trying to do something specifically "athletic" like play 57 F5s in a twenty minute period at FFF, then yeah, I agree that you will need lots of rest in between workouts.
) and two or three G5s ( ). It's almost like he is describing training something like a set obstacle course that you practice over and over again until you can do it blindfolded. A lot of what he was talking about applies to regular playing, but a lot of it doesn't. I think you can work on building range every day if you want, but it depends on your goals. For some, a G above the staff is something that seems like it is in the stratosphere. I doubt it would hurt to work on that G every day.
If your goal is to be able to consistently play a C5 above middle C, I think you can work on that every day. There shouldn't be any issues with this, unless you are fundamentally approaching the upper register in a flawed way. If you can play a C all day long, I really don't see an issue with working on a D5 every day, and so on.
A program like David Vinings Range Songs would allow you to work on your range every day, to develop it to the point that you're good to play two or three of your top highest notes in a given piece on demand.
However, if you are trying to do something specifically "athletic" like play 57 F5s in a twenty minute period at FFF, then yeah, I agree that you will need lots of rest in between workouts.
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ttf_William Lang
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Having performed Trookh - i believe that performing range to failure every day is possible - and has been my routine for about 14 years now. For me the key has been to follow every exercise that goes high with an exercise that stressed good sound in the pedal register. that and always paying attention to your face will get you far.
one tip i recommend - if you play until your lips are gently buzzing when you stop playing, that's a good time to stop and wind down - if you ever have a sharp lip pain - stop immediately for the day.
one tip i recommend - if you play until your lips are gently buzzing when you stop playing, that's a good time to stop and wind down - if you ever have a sharp lip pain - stop immediately for the day.
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ttf_William Lang
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How frequently can you train your high register?
Having performed Trookh - i believe that performing range to failure every day is possible - and has been my routine for about 14 years now. For me the key has been to follow every exercise that goes high with an exercise that stressed good sound in the pedal register. that and always paying attention to your face will get you far.
one tip i recommend - if you play until your lips are gently buzzing when you stop playing, that's a good time to stop and wind down - if you ever have a sharp lip pain - stop immediately for the day.
one tip i recommend - if you play until your lips are gently buzzing when you stop playing, that's a good time to stop and wind down - if you ever have a sharp lip pain - stop immediately for the day.