TromboneChat

What are the main differences between the Bach Stradivarius 12 and 16M bells? I know about the 12 and 16M slides but, are the bells the same or quite different?

Do you guys generally like the Bach 12 soundwise compare to the other .500 inch bores?

16M has the open neckpipe (M). Not sure of any other differences, actually.

Is the 12 better than other .500s soundwise? That's all personal preference. I'd like one, myself....

Is the 12 neckpipe too tight?

My understanding is that after the Mt Vernon years, the small bores all (6, 8, 12, 16) use the same bell section. Bells stamped 16M were the only factory offering that was different, with the more open gooseneck, beyond material choice (Gold, Silver, platings, etc).

New York and Mt Vernon years....huge variety in the 6s, but according to the mounting sheet (attached) from the NY years the 8 through 16 models all had the same bell section as the 6-ii.

I have swapped 8G, 6vii, 16, 16m SS+, 16"B" bell sections between my LT8, 9, 16, LT16M, and LT16M+H8 pipe slides without issue, though, some slides don't always thread fully with some bells. Good ol' Bach consistency. I don't own a 12 or a true 6 though.

Further confusion point: early 16Ms had unmodified 16 bell sections with the single bore LT .508 slide. Later 16Ms with bells stamped M have the gooseneck too.

AEK wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:53 pm Is the 12 neckpipe too tight?

Or is the 16M too open? I have bell sections with and without the open gooseneck. It makes a difference but, for me, not a major one.

If I am right, Carl Fontana and Scott Whitfield played with the LT12. Who else do you know that I can find out and listen their recordings?

Bob McChesney plays a bunch of different Bachs... I think he's on a 12 right now.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:22 pm Bob McChesney plays a bunch of different Bachs... I think he's on a 12 right now.

Was on an 8 for a long time.

AEK wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:18 pm If I am right, Carl Fontana and Scott Whitfield played with the LT12. Who else do you know that I can find out and listen their recordings?

Carl was on a 9 for some time, a 2B in a few videos, and I've heard he also used a few other horns (edwards, maybe williams?), though he had the 12 the longest if I'm remembering right.

Wasn't the original 16 the dual-bore, and then the 16M the straight .509?
Then they made the LT16 and specs just got inconsistent?
I remember the open neckpipe as a custom piece, it may have become standard, but not sure.
I am sure that there are some New York guys that will remember better than me.

I know that Bob McChesney did play some 8s, thought he was still there.
Hit him up, he's on the web, and I hear a nice guy.
One of his old 8s is at the Brassark, smoking horn, just a bit too small for me.

I remember Bill Watrous playing Bach 12s for at least the last few years I saw him.
They played like butter, but soooooo light.
He definitely played through the 16s and 8s before that.
I've heard that he always wanted his big band sections on Bachs as well.
Didn't Rob Stoneback talk him into letting him use his Selmer?

Jimkinkella wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:08 pm Wasn't the original 16 the dual-bore, and then the 16M the straight .509?
Then they made the LT16 and specs just got inconsistent?
I remember the open neckpipe as a custom piece, it may have become standard, but not sure.
I am sure that there are some New York guys that will remember better than me.

I know that Bob McChesney did play some 8s, thought he was still there.
Hit him up, he's on the web, and I hear a nice guy.
One of his old 8s is at the Brassark, smoking horn, just a bit too small for me.

I remember Bill Watrous playing Bach 12s for at least the last few years I saw him.
They played like butter, but soooooo light.
He definitely played through the 16s and 8s before that.
I've heard that he always wanted his big band sections on Bachs as well.
Didn't Rob Stoneback talk him into letting him use his Selmer?

I'm hardly an expert here, but my understanding is the 16 has always been .495/509; the LT16 is just a LT slide not a bore distinction. Slides stamped 16M are the single bore .509 and are LT by default. Then, bell sections only vary when stamped 'M'. Sam Burtis said on the old forum that he, Watrous, and others had Bach modify their NY/MtV 16s to be single bore way before it became an official model....so honestly who knows.

I thought Bill kept using his .509 horn the LT16M was based on, I hadn't heard he was using a 12 instead.

Bill played the same original Mt. Vernon 16(M) the whole time. They modeled the production version after it, to a point, but it's pretty different than a 16M you can buy.

bimmerman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:14 pm

Jimkinkella wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:08 pm Wasn't the original 16 the dual-bore, and then the 16M the straight .509?
Then they made the LT16 and specs just got inconsistent?
I remember the open neckpipe as a custom piece, it may have become standard, but not sure.
I am sure that there are some New York guys that will remember better than me.

I know that Bob McChesney did play some 8s, thought he was still there.
Hit him up, he's on the web, and I hear a nice guy.
One of his old 8s is at the Brassark, smoking horn, just a bit too small for me.

I remember Bill Watrous playing Bach 12s for at least the last few years I saw him.
They played like butter, but soooooo light.
He definitely played through the 16s and 8s before that.
I've heard that he always wanted his big band sections on Bachs as well.
Didn't Rob Stoneback talk him into letting him use his Selmer?

I'm hardly an expert here, but my understanding is the 16 has always been .495/509; the LT16 is just a LT slide not a bore distinction. Slides stamped 16M are the single bore .509 and are LT by default. Then, bell sections only vary when stamped 'M'. Sam Burtis said on the old forum that he, Watrous, and others had Bach modify their NY/MtV 16s to be single bore way before it became an official model....so honestly who knows.

I thought Bill kept using his .509 horn the LT16M was based on, I hadn't heard he was using a 12 instead.

Yes the M on the slide means its single bore. The regular 16 was and is the only bach that comes with a dual bore slide standard. And to my knowlege watrous played a modified 16 for a very long time. But the lt 16m is not the same thing as watrous's horn, just loosely based off of it

Icemann11 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:41 pm Yes the M on the slide means its single bore. The regular 16 was and is the only bach that comes with a dual bore slide standard. And to my knowlege watrous played a modified 16 for a very long time. But the lt 16m is not the same thing as watrous's horn, just loosely based off of it

Yes, though not exactly true on the duo-bore. The 7 and 9 (and others) were dual bore as well though only the 16 was produced past the Mt Vernon years.

bimmerman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:56 pm

AEK wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:18 pm If I am right, Carl Fontana and Scott Whitfield played with the LT12. Who else do you know that I can find out and listen their recordings?

Carl was on a 9 for some time, a 2B in a few videos, and I've heard he also used a few other horns (edwards, maybe williams?), though he had the 12 the longest if I'm remembering right.

I can't find any videos of him using a 2B, but I heard that he sometimes used one. I know that he played on an Earl Williams from '68- '74. Apparently he didn't use the Bach 12 until after the Williams (?)

I can't find any videos of him using a 2B, but I heard that he sometimes used one. I know that he played on an Earl Williams from '68- '74. Apparently he didn't use the Bach 12 until after the Williams (?)]

Carl on a 2B ( + ? ... Jiggs? )



To me he doesn't sound as comfortable as he does on his Bach, see what you think

Enjoy


BellEnd

Not all 16M's had that designation on the bell. My early 80's model* has 16M on the slide, but not on the bell. It wasn't alone in that regard. If it was a gold brass bell, it was stamped 16G, but the M mark came along a little later, I presume.

* (I bought mine new, so it's definitely not some mismatched situation. Came out of the crate this way.)

Carl told me in 1982 his favorite horn was a Bach 12 bell section on a Bach 8 slide section. That was then, and he later had other horns including the Edwards.

I have 2 12`s and Love `em. My go to every day horn is an Lt12G with a Kanstul W6 Leadpipe. The other one is a 1st year Elkhart Horn Yellow Bell and standard weight slide. I can swap bells and slides. The Gold Bell with the standard weight slide gets really dark.
I also have a Lt16MG with an H8 Leadpipe , Plays wonderful but for some reason I prefer the Lt12G Better

I would think Carl was on a 2B+ since he usually stayed on a .500 bore horn

bellend wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:47 am Carl on a 2B ( + ? ... Jiggs? )

To me he doesn't sound as comfortable as he does on his Bach, see what you think

If only I could play with such discomfort!