TromboneChat

I can get plenty of edge on my attacks down to Eb in T3. Fro my there on down to pedal F, not so much. Low C#, C, and B are especially lacking.
What excercises should I practice to great a more edgy (crisper) attack in that range.

It is not that easy to advice a special thing to practice to isolate on one particular drawback. I can only advice what helped me. I'm a doubler and I've improved my attacks on the valve with the bass. What I think helped is I found the angle to play n that register. I point the horn up and slightly to the right when I reach the valve register. I also make sure my mouth corners are firm of course. I think everybody needs to experiment a little where to find the maximum of sound with the minimal of force. With a better and more efficient emboshure a lot of things slide in place. A better sound, better control, better flexibility, better intonation, better stamina and better attacks.

Then the general rule is you should practice the things you want to learn. In this case to be able to attack cleaner in the low register. You just pick a note you can do and then play that note repeatedly and concentrate on the attack. Then you play a semi tone lower and repeat. You go down and keep focus on sound, firm corners and attacks. Play both soft and loud.

/Tom

Edge in that range is really tough. I can't really do it, either. It will never happen that a bass trombone will get the kind of "bite" a bari sax can get.

But, in general, I have found that what improves things for me isn't focusing on the articulation per se, but more basic: focusing on getting the tone to start cleanly and moving in and out of that range/flexibility. My tongue isn't the issue so much as is how my lips react. Having a lesson focusing on low range with Doug Elliot a few years ago definitely helped me - I was adding motion that was actually impeding me in that register. Sorting out how my embouchure best reacts and making transitions truly consistent in terms of mechanics definitely helped.

For me, it's a big deal to make a slight alteration in pointing my slide down and to the left for the low register, and also sliding the mouthpiece/lips on my teeth the same: slightly down and to the left. There is a point at which this no longer works, and as James Markey has observed in his own playing, I "run out of room" for the lips to vibrate and need to make an adjustment beyond the general tendency noted here - but making that break point as low as possible is key. After that break point, articulation just doesn't happen - all the notes are all tone and no "bite" of attack; above that break point, there is still room for me to control some amount of "bite" attack, although it'll never be as good as higher up.

Obviously, any person's specific embouchure motion will be their own, and probably won't match mine.

Sometimes I get progress by finding ways to add mass in the piece in different ranges, like pouting or puckering out a bit. Then other times ain't nothin' gonna help. Go figure.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:42 am My tongue isn't the issue so much as is how my lips react.

Yup. Your chops (lips, really in this case) have to be relaxed where it matters, so the slower air can move them instantly at the front of the note.

If you can do accurate, on-pitch, quick air attacks in that register, you'll be able to do the same with the tongue.

This kind of thing is giving me trouble. Upper note is fine, Bottom note needs more presence. This particular piece I play the whole thing pulled to E on a single rotor.

Can you easily air-attack low Bs with a good sound?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:14 pm Can you easily air-attack low Bs with a good sound?

Surprisingly yes.

Then keep it up!

I would point out this is exactly the kind of rep that is why we use double valve basses on nearly everything these days... I wouldn't want to play any of that on a single.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:00 pm Then keep it up!

I would point out this is exactly the kind of rep that is why we use double valve basses on nearly everything these days... I wouldn't want to play any of that on a single.

I guess I'll keep workin' it. Every time I play it out in front of the band it's received very well. But I'd like to do better!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:00 pm Then keep it up!

I would point out this is exactly the kind of rep that is why we use double valve basses on nearly everything these days... I wouldn't want to play any of that on a single.

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:02 pm This kind of thing is giving me trouble. Upper note is fine, Bottom note needs more presence. This particular piece I play the whole thing pulled to E on a single rotor.

Yes, I almost forgot. One thing that has helped me with attacks is the factitious notes. You can not play them very well on a loose emboushure, of cause you need to be relaxed in the middle where the vibration is but besides that you need the corners to be tight.

To play the single in E is hard work because the B will be sharp on the far end of the slide and you need to lip it in tune. If you have a very long tuning slide and can tune flat E you will be able to play that B but If you practice that B to be clear as a factitious note on T3 with normal F tuning then you will be able to use that B in time. Until you can, you will do better with a double. Neither flat E or E-tuning on the single is a favourite of mine. I tend to forget what tuning I use and then I can not play very well. If I have long C's then I pull my tuningslide a bit but only as much as I need to get that C. A long B is hard on the single. Either I have to pull as much as possible and lip the note in place or I do the best I can with a long factitious note on T3.

Next thing that helped me in that low register, from C and down is to strike with the tongue between my lips. I don't do that on tenor but I do it on bass on C and below if I want crisp attacks. I know my teacher on tenor said not to put the tongue between the lips so I never did on tenor. On bass it is different I noticed it helped me to get more edge on my attacks so I allow it.

I have several basses, most are singles and that excerpt is no problem on a single with factitious notes. I use the singles a lot but if it gets to much of those low C's and B's then I use my double.

/Tom

If you were playing on a double-valve bass trombone, I'd suggest playing the pedal B-flats from the first example on the triggers instead of open, to make it feel more similar to the Bs and Cs. But on a single E trigger, that's not really feasible. Still, it might be worth experimenting with playing the upper Bflat on the trigger for the same reason going into the B-natural. With an E trigger, that should be somewhere around 2nd position.

I should mention, this is part of the thing I was having issues with in my other thread. I can get down to the pedal Ab with a lot of edge and bite, but not further.

All I can say is: keep working on it. It'll get there. I tried rushing it, and you really can't. You can try a big toilet bowl like a Schilke 60 mouthpiece, but it won't work unless you can play the note already.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:14 pm I should mention, this is part of the thing I was having issues with in my other thread. I can get down to the pedal Ab with a lot of edge and bite, but not further.

All I can say is: keep working on it. It'll get there. I tried rushing it, and you really can't. You can try a big toilet bowl like a Schilke 60 mouthpiece, but it won't work unless you can play the note already.

That's right about where I have to do an embouchure shift to get any "bite".

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:14 pm I should mention, this is part of the thing I was having issues with in my other thread. I can get down to the pedal Ab with a lot of edge and bite, but not further.

All I can say is: keep working on it. It'll get there. I tried rushing it, and you really can't. You can try a big toilet bowl like a Schilke 60 mouthpiece, but it won't work unless you can play the note already.

I have an emboushure shift below pedal Eb. I can play a pedal D on my largest mouthpiece without a shift but not on any of the mouthpieces I use. I have to move the mouthpiece down to get the notes below pedal Eb. Most do the opposite and move the mouthpiece up instead. Both can work and what you do might have to do with how thick your lips are. If they are very thin or one of them is then you might get enough room to vibrate without a shift. I have rather normal size of my lips. When I do a shift the feeling is only the lower lip vibrate. I have practiced the switch a lot and with practice I can find out how much of a switch that is really nessecary. This has lead to less movements and a more easy switch. Some notes I can play normal I have also practiced with the switch. I can switch with a good sound as high as a pedal F.

/Tom

As you can play the tones with air attack you are almost at home. Find the place for the tongue that are not in the way for the air flow. Try tongue between the teath, many bass trombonists do that, many with out knowing what they do. Some move the mouthpiece up or down, some point the slide down some up, some move to the left some to the right. As you can play the tones with air attack, your problem the attack it self, your tongue is in the way for the air flow, the tongue should be low in the mouth as sone as possible after the attack.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:03 amThat's right about where I have to do an embouchure shift to get any "bite".

Yeah, sometimes I can get a nice G or F# with bite, but only if the piece requires me to slide into it. Below there, it's the big shift.

Interestingly, I don't need that shift on a small bore trombone with a wide/shallow mouthpiece. The back pressure must really help me somehow.

But not on tuba, where I have no low range.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:02 am ...

But not on tuba, where I have no low range.

Try using a Helleberg style mouthpiece (narrow but deep cup). I found it helps my lower range on tuba.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:00 amTry using a Helleberg style mouthpiece (narrow but deep cup). I found it helps my lower range on tuba.

It's an airflow problem for me. I keep trying to play it like a trombone. I have a Helleberg 120S and 7B, and the 120S definitely works better for my BBb tuba. I've also got a Yamaha 67C4, which I think sounds better than the Helleberg 120, and I like the rim better.

Thanks to everybody that chimed in here. It's good to know I'm not the only one with the problem! I am convinced I I can master this on a single rotor axe! And all your advice will help. All the notes are on the horn, I just have to make them come out....

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:00 pm Thanks to everybody that chimed in here. It's good to know I'm not the only one with the problem! I am convinced I I can master this on a single rotor axe! And all your advice will help. All the notes are on the horn, I just have to make them come out....

Also, definitely watch this video:

I've been thinking a lot about this, so I came up with a video and exercise to work on it.

I think your on the right track, you just need more time with it. Full time bass trombonists work on stuff like this constantly because it is not easy. You will get it.

Listen to Denson Paul Pollard. I think he gives a way a few words about attacks in here:

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:58 pm Also, definitely watch this video:

This only works if you have a middle/low embouchure right? I mean, if you're already playing with your mouthpiece on higher on the lips? Yuo can't do the opposite?

Ted wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:25 amThis only works if you have a middle/low embouchure right? I mean, if you're already playing with your mouthpiece on higher on the lips? Yuo can't do the opposite?

Try it out and see what works! Half-lipping usually means that your lower lip is pretty much even with the bottom of the mouthpiece, and only the upper lip is vibrating. It's not a perfect solution, but with the Pro guys, getting the note out is the most important thing.