TromboneChat

Is there any difference between the Conn 8HT and the 8HLT bells? Im working under the assumption they're the same thing just wirh different designations and both were meant to be like the old elkhart bells.

Is my assumption correct or am i just an ass?

You're right. When the thin bell was first introduced it was called "LT" for a brief time.

Someone else may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Gen II 88H bells all have soldered rims, while the the Elkhart bells were all unsoldered. I know my Gen II 62H has a soldered rim.

Yeah they're all soldered. The LT or T only refers to the weight. Thinner in the style of the old Elkhart bells, but with soldered rim.

How does the soldered bell affect the sound vs. the unsoldered?

Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general

castrubone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:16 pm Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general

That's what you hear behind the bell. Soldered bells really just increase feedback to the player. There's not a big difference out on the hall, unless it's the player compensating for the increased feedback.

paulyg wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:20 pm

castrubone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:16 pm Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general

That's what you hear behind the bell. Soldered bells really just increase feedback to the player. There's not a big difference out on the hall, unless it's the player compensating for the increased feedback.

I hear a big difference out in the hall. I also think unsoldered actually gives more feedback to the player, but it's subtle.

How can you hear a big difference out in the hall if you're the one playing?

I have recorded concerts, and the difference in articulation out front between my 42 and 88H is almost imperceptible compared to the difference behind the bell.

As you mentioned in your post, recording. A 42 and 88 are so radically different in so many ways other than the rim that it's not a fair comparison.

Depending on the hall you can hear your sound great or not at all when playing.

I had a 88HT and I now play on a new Elkhart 88H.
I found the thin bell T dented a little too easy, and for me , although it had life at quieter dynamics, I prefer the louder dynamics of the regular bell. It’s all subjective though, no wrong or right, just what suits you.

We need a little more clarity on the soldered vs. unsoldered bell rims topic. Unsoldered bell rims give the player much more feedback in volume of sound and particularly in articulations. The sound is “wider” so it comes back to the player more. Most players feel that articulations are immediate (have more “pop”) and can be controlled to a high level. A common criticism of unsoldered rims is that the sound doesn’t make it to the back of the concert hall. However, that never seemed to be a problem for Joe Alessi!

Soldered rims tend to project more sound or “core” out toward the audience and thus, give the player less feedback. Soldered bell rims also make it slightly more challenging for the player to hear his/her clarity (or lack of clarity) in articulations. Many players must articulate a little harder on soldered rims when compared to playing on unsoldered rims.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:19 pm We need a little more clarity on the soldered vs. unsoldered bell rims topic. Unsoldered bell rims give the player much more feedback in volume of sound and particularly in articulations. The sound is “wider” so it comes back to the player more. Most players feel that articulations are immediate (have more “pop”) and can be controlled to a high level. A common criticism of unsoldered rims is that the sound doesn’t make it to the back of the concert hall. However, that never seemed to be a problem for Joe Alessi!

Soldered rims tend to project more sound or “core” out toward the audience and thus, give the player less feedback. Soldered bell rims also make it slightly more challenging for the player to hear his/her clarity (or lack of clarity) in articulations. Many players must articulate a little harder on soldered rims when compared to playing on unsoldered rims.

I honestly feel like it's the opposite... But ehhh if this thread is an example of anything it's all subjective anyways!

For a while I owned a 1969 Elkhart 88h and a ~2005 8HT at the same time (I've since sold the 8h, due most likely to temporary insanity). To me the 88h is the standard by which I rate everything else, and the 8HT was right up there. Between the lack of the extra weight and restriction of the valve and the solder around the rim, the two horns were clearly related, and I loved the 8HT for the same reasons I loved the 88H. They are both lively and nimble horns with a great colorful sound. They have both been standard orchestral and chamber music hardware for as long as they've existed.

I also owned a regular GenII 8H with the newer heavier bell, and thought it was kind of hard to steer, less lively, more like a 42b. Didn't like it at all, especially compared to the Elkie.

Yes mrdeacon, I agree with you and apologize if my post sounded too hardline. Sound creation and sound perception are very personal things. My perceptions of soldered vs. unsoldered rims do somewhat match the descriptions that I see in the literature for instruments like Shires and Edwards. However, I have noticed that those descriptions are quite, hmmmm.....vague and ambiguous. This is for good reason. We all interpret the different options in instruments as impacting our playing in different ways.

Let's agree that we live in a wonderful time when we can share our experiences and our perceptions of playing. On the Conn 8/88H bells alone, the options (Elkhart, Gen2 yellow bells, Gen2 red bells, thin bells vs standard weight, by golly....I know a guy who prefers his Abilene vintage over his Elkhart vintage) are overwhelming. However, we need to appreciate that these options give us the opportunity to experiment and find what works best for us as individuals.

I also owned a regular GenII 8H with the newer heavier bell, and thought it was kind of hard to steer, less lively, more like a 42b. Didn't like it at all, especially compared to the Elkie.

Hard to steer is a good comparison of the 8h against the 8hT.