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Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:04 pm
by Blenky
After playing solely 1st/2nd Trombone in amateur bands and orchestras for 20-30 years I recently agreed to help out on bass for a local wind band.
I play on an 88H with the almost mandatory 5G but found that I couldn’t get a decent tone on anything below a bottom F.
I tried out a number of MP’s and found that I had a great tone and range on a Bousefield 4V, still easily managing to hit top C’s while extending my lower range down to E/D and vastly improving my pedal register.
After 7-8 months on the 4V I have noticed that I am regularly splitting notes between G (below the top leger line) and Eb above the stave!
I’ve always had a very reliable attack and delivery, so went back to the 5G for a few days and found things improving again.
Any tips or tricks on the best exercises to adopt to improve things on the 4V? I really love the better range, but can’t live with the note splitting.
Currently doing a lot more scales across the problem note range with focus on the attack, both pianissimo and forte, but am open to any other advice.
Many thanks.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:22 pm
by Vegasbound
Have a lesson with Doug Elliott
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:13 pm
by norbie2018
If the 5g is producing better results then stick with the 5g. Doesn't have to be anymore complicated then that.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:54 pm
by brassmedic
A man goes to the doctor. He says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this." The doctor says, "Then stop doing that."
Go back to the 5G.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:11 pm
by Blenky
Thanks!
I was hoping for something a little more constructive than ‘go back to what you had before’!!
If I can produce an equal tone across a greater range on the 4V I’d like to stick with it. There must be a technical reason why I’m falling off of a couple of notes regularly?
If it’s just practice, practice, practice...I’m happy with that.
Might take your advice and get a couple of lessons from someone and see what transpires.
Cheers.
B.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:27 pm
by norbie2018
Blenky wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:11 pm
Thanks!
I was hoping for something a little more constructive than ‘go back to what you had before’!!
If I can produce an equal tone across a greater range on the 4V I’d like to stick with it. There must be a technical reason why I’m falling off of a couple of notes regularly?
If it’s just practice, practice, practice...I’m happy with that.
Might take your advice and get a couple of lessons from someone and see what transpires.
Cheers.
B.
Suggesting that you go back to your old mouthpiece, one which you're not having problems with, is as constructive a suggestion as a person can make. If you like the other mouthpiece then play on it but if it's not improving your sound why would you stick with it? Sometimes the best answers are the simple ones.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:04 pm
by chromebone
If you are now playing a Bousfield 4V, you effectively switched from a 5g to a 4g rim diameter. You clearly are used to a 5g rim diameter; try a Bousfield 5V or other 5g sized mouthpieces instead. Switching rim sizes is something a player should do only after careful consideration of many factors, including mouthpiece placement and facial structure. It’s especially confusing for the face of you are not only switching mouthpieces with all of the variables inherent in that, but also changing the rim, which is the interface between your embrochure and the mouthpiece. Although I pretty much always come back to my Schilke 51, I do experiment with other mouthpieces from time to time, but only within the 51/5g rim size for the same reason I try different types of shoes, but only in size 11. Switching to a larger rim has always resulted in problems for me, just like I’m sure switching to larger shoes would result in me tripping more often. Splitting notes often happens when you are playing on the wrong rim size.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:52 pm
by Jimkinkella
A different option:
Every 5g is different.
Every 4g is different.
Every manufacturer, even from one Bach to the next, especially across manufacturing eras.
You can change up cup depths, sizes, throat shapes, and throat sizes even with the same part #.
These will all change the tone, even facility to hit notes in different ranges.
Try a shallower 4g, or a deeper and more open 5g.
That's a simple place to start.
Doug Elliott's pieces are great but you can go down a really deep rabbit hole very quickly- great, but not always the easiest way to figure things out.
I would suggest starting off at at your local shop with the largest variety you can find.
I personally have 8ish large bore 5g pieces, all very different.
I think Byron Peebles had 15? different 5g mouthpieces.
Hooking up with Doug Elliott on Skype is a good idea as well, to see if you might have a quirk or unexpected shift change that's not working.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:14 pm
by harrisonreed
Wild guess:
The larger rim has inadvertently allowed your embouchure to shift towards the 50/50 type, and possibly even allowed/forced you to compensate by shifting your jaw forward or backwards so that everything is lined up horizontally and vertically. The 50/50 embouchure is unstable because there is often a break where the airstream will switch from upstream to downstream, usually in the middle register. This is exactly the register you describe as having split notes. Furthermore, if your jaw has shifted forwards or backwards, allowing your teeth to line up vertically, this can also shift the airstream directly between upstream and downstream (ie directly into the mouthpiece bore). This is usually great for the low register, but not so great for anything else.
Just a wild, uninformed guess...
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:37 pm
by Doug Elliott
I really don't get the "rabbit hole" description of my stuff. I see it as exactly the opposite.
Anyway, there are a few possibilities. The range of your problem is the typical double buzz area, and your "splitting notes" could be a slight double buzz at the start of a note instead. Which could be because the rim is a hair too big for you, and/or something else about it is too big. It depends on both your embouchure type and facial structure, but I don't know either one.
I see 4 mouthpieces listed in your profile. Do the 3G or 1-1/2G give you any similar problems? What do you use the 3G for?
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:07 pm
by brassmedic
norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:27 pm
Suggesting that you go back to your old mouthpiece, one which you're not having problems with, is as constructive a suggestion as a person can make. If you like the other mouthpiece then play on it but if it's not improving your sound why would you stick with it? Sometimes the best answers are the simple ones.
This.
What I don't understand is why Blenky is so dead set on the 4V. You had a problem: you didn't feel that you were getting a good sound in the low range. So you switched mouthpieces. But that created a new problem, which you now want to solve
without switching mouthpieces. Why not try to solve the original problem with the original mouthpiece? If there's a technical reason why you're splitting notes on the 4V, there's just as likely a technical reason why you weren't getting a good sound in the low range on the 5G.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:20 am
by Blenky
Wow, thanks to you all!
I fully appreciate that going back to the 5G would probably do the trick, but having tried the 4V (tried a few MP's of the same dimensions at the shop) I love the fact that I can get a much better sound in the lower range and actually play most of the bass trombone stuff I'm faced with without feeling that the tone is awful! Upper range for the most part is unchanged.
@DougElliot I've not used the 3G/1.5G for a while (5+ years, and only for v.occasional bass concerts), and to get to the 4V I went via a 5V, but only for a couple of weeks. I feel really comfortable on the 4V and seem to be able to get much more air through the instrument. My chops are quite large and I think that I should probably have changed over years ago. I had a long blow tonight and I think the issue is more prevalent when I'm coming down the register from top G/F above the stave and then have to pitch notes in the problem range.
I do acknowledge that going back to the 5G will possibly be the solution, but I'd like to see if I can fix this first as it seems like it might be a minor change or just more focused practice in the problem area.
Once again, thanks for all of your suggestions.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:22 am
by Vegasbound
I will suggest again that you have a lesson maybe via Skype with Doug, he understands chops and will be able to spot any soft equipment problems and help you rectify them
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:37 am
by Basbasun
You are looking for a mpc that give you better low range? It has to be a mpc that you are not used to right? Try your 3G or 1 1/2G.
"I play on an 88H with the almost mandatory 5G but found that I couldn’t get a decent tone on anything below a bottom F."
That is so common! If you don´t play below F regurarly, you wont have a decent tone in that range, no matter what mpc you use, practice that range, it does help!
I play bass on a 1 1/4G. Small tenor on 11C, I have a decent pedal F on 11C, why? I do play low tones often. Every day.
PS Do have lessons with somebody!
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:05 am
by timothy42b
That's where I get a double buzz/splitting notes, if I've been playing in the low range for a while and I've let my mouthpiece slide down on my chops. Doug spotted that last time I had a lesson (thanks.) I'd been struggling a bit wondering why sometimes I could play those notes well and sometimes not.
Re: Mouthpiece change - splitting notes!
Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:21 pm
by brassmedic
Blenky wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:20 am
Wow, thanks to you all!
I fully appreciate that going back to the 5G would probably do the trick, but having tried the 4V (tried a few MP's of the same dimensions at the shop) I love the fact that I can get a much better sound in the lower range and actually play most of the bass trombone stuff I'm faced with without feeling that the tone is awful! Upper range for the most part is unchanged.
@DougElliot I've not used the 3G/1.5G for a while (5+ years, and only for v.occasional bass concerts), and to get to the 4V I went via a 5V, but only for a couple of weeks. I feel really comfortable on the 4V and seem to be able to get much more air through the instrument. My chops are quite large and I think that I should probably have changed over years ago. I had a long blow tonight and I think the issue is more prevalent when I'm coming down the register from top G/F above the stave and then have to pitch notes in the problem range.
I do acknowledge that going back to the 5G will possibly be the solution, but I'd like to see if I can fix this first as it seems like it might be a minor change or just more focused practice in the problem area.
Once again, thanks for all of your suggestions.
OK, fair enough. It sounds like you have other reasons as well for wanting to use a bigger mouthpiece. Good luck.