TromboneChat

Hi all,

this has certainly been discussed before, but I would appreciate some quick Input as I may have to make a very fast buying decision.

From an objective point of view (so without saying that all Kings are jazz horns) - how would you compare the 4b to the 88h or 88ht?

What are the pros and cons?
Sound, responsiveness, intonation, suitable to settings such as orchestra, Wind Band, brass Ensemble...

Thanks for your Inputs!

I assume you're comparing a King 4-B/F to the 88. I like that the lever to actuate the valve is behind the bell brace unlike almost all other horns that place it in front of the brace. Took me a while to get used to having my thumb only on the valve lever and not holding that brace. The King probably has a nickle-silver outer slide tube as opposed to brass like the 88. That could make it a little brighter. I know you can get either open wrap or closed wrap with the 88, not sure about the 4B, I've only seen closed there.

Different strokes...

I'd say an 88H is marginally more versatile than a 4B. The 2B and 3B are jazz horns... the 4B is not. The 4B has more chips riding on the "Symphony Orchestra Sound" than the 88H does.

88Hs from Elkhart tend to hold value better than 4Bs.

I've played both, but I'm a definite 88h guy. I think the Conn has just a little more flexibility and warmth. I would think the 4b is closer to the 88ht, which is closer to the Elkhart than the current 88h. The differences between them are going to be really subtle, but I'd probably say the 4b's strength would be concert band, and the 88h(t) strength would be primarily chamber music. I don't think you'd go wrong with either horn, I just feel like I can express a greater range on the 88h.

A 4B does tend to be a bit brighter than an 88H. There are two "flavors": earlier ones had the trigger paddle so that you hold the horn with the webbing between thumb and forefinger. Later ones are more like everybody else's.

I also felt that my King 4B was perfect for Concert Band. Needed to tone it down a bit for symphony. But there have been some great players in Cleveland that played Kings in that orchestra.

I recently tried a new straight King 4B against my 88HT. The 4B was a bigger sound and felt more open. "Bach-like" you could say. The bell seemed fairly thin, but it's bigger than average (8 5/8" i think) so it balances out. Definitely would work in an orchestra no problem. The Conn is more nimble and colorful with a compact/directional sound. Easier to play. Both were very responsive.

Thanks everyone for the very quick responses!

I could have had a good deal on a 4B F, but seems like someone else was quicker.
They are not very common here, definitely much less than the 88h.
But somehow I always considered getting one.

Let's see what comes up next

Anyway I am lucky that I didn't have to tell my wife about the next trombone I bought.

wow, i got a nice deal on a King 4B myself.
Considering the number of King 4B offers here in Germany it might have been the one you where looking for.
Was it offered by a dealer in 76307 Karlsbad/Germany ? If so.....sorry, i am the one who got it.
Send me a PM if you still want to try the horn.

Best Regards
Heinrich

I'm late to this discussion. I haven't liked any of the few King 4B I've played. It could be I've never had a chance to play a good one. Unfortunately I have not come across any player here who play a 4B. The few I've seen have been in shops. Conn 88h on the contrary turn up all the time and I like the ones I've tried very much.
I have two Conn 88h's, one is an Aberline from 1979 and one is an Elkhart from 1955. Both are great but different. As a collector I jumped the 4B's since we never become friends and instead the Benge brand cought my interest. They are rather King like. It is the path the Kings should have taken instead of involving the Benge name since they use King and Conn parts in a good mix. They have been said to be "the best of Conn and King". I have a great Benge 190C that I'm pleased with.

/Tom

A king 4B is great, if it's the horn for you, the same with the 88H. It is definitely a different animal, with the nickel silver slide, with a very ROUND end bow on the slide. The tuning slide I think is equally round, and usually they have yellow brass bells.

I have considered picking up a straight 4B for years as a solo/first horn, but i've never been able to find one in the condition or configuration I want.

Had a 4B since 1972 or 1973. The Cleveland Orchestra was using them at the time. When I went to Baldwin-Wallace Conservatory of Music in 1975, everybody was on a 4B, 88H, or Bach 42B.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:51 pm ... the Benge brand cought my interest. They are rather King like. It is the path the Kings should have taken instead of involving the Benge name since they use King and Conn parts in a good mix. They have been said to be "the best of Conn and King". I have a great Benge 190C that I'm pleased with.
/Tom

The Benge 165F, as described previously in The Trombone Forum and TromboneChat, is pretty much a "souped up" King 4B-F. Better than any King-branded orchestral trombone I've tried, it also makes an interesting comparison to a Conn 88H. [Though I still prefer my vintage 1972 88H.] The Benge 190 is reputed to be even better than the 165F, though I haven't played one.

I have played two Elkhart 88Hs for a good long time, and one 4B for a much shorter time. To me, the 88h was easy to color; I could make it mellow out, or get bright, cut through when needed, or buried in the background. The King had a great slide; the Conn slides were ... okay. The King has a good sound, but for me it was only ONE sound, bright and cutting through, at least at greater volume. For me, the flexibility made the difference.

John Thompson
YSL646
Besson 10-10
Conn 60H

There are no Conn parts whatsoever on a Benge. The Benge was designed while King was still independent of UMI and Conn. If anything, modern Conns have a King/Benge rotor valve on them. Some later UMI 190s have a nickel cased valve that was a compromise towards using the same valve on the 88H.

As for judging a 4B, you have to take into account that the 4B has a number of different flavors: The early Yellow brass and Sterling silver with the older ergonomics, the earlier rose belled versions and the UMI versions with a rose bell, Silver Sonic 100th anniversary and more modern ergonomics. Also, some 4bs have annealed bells during the later 80’s through the 90’s according to Chuck Ward. Not sure if they are still made that way. The bottom line, they are all different from each other.

chromebone wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:11 am There are no Conn parts whatsoever on a Benge.

If you look at the similarities what comes from King is the slide the color, the sound and feel. What comes from Conn is the way you manouver the valve. King has a button but Benge has that very Conn like lever which I find much better. The Benge design of open wrap valve is neither King nor Conn from that time. The Benge bell is annealed which at that time was a new thing, neither King nor Conn had that. Benge was it's own thing but definitely more King. A next generation King is how they could have been marketed.

/Tom