TromboneChat

I'm an undergrad trombone performance major at the University of Memphis and my professor has told me that I will be needing a euphonium for euphonium lessons in the near future; so I am in the market for a decent euphonium, and was wondering what you guys may think. I'd like to try to keep it under $2000 if at all possible. Thanks in advance!

Tristan

You can usually get a King 2280 for around $1000. Mack Brass offers a usable 3+1 compensator under $1000. Wessex has a front valve 4v compensating euph for about $2000, which I own.

The Wessex is pretty great for the price. Its not as good as the high end horns, but its still a fully featured 3+1 compensating euph.

You should be able to find a used Yamaha 321 (or King 2280) for around that price. Those are durable, reliable, and very solid horns that will suit all of your doubling needs. Just keep in mind that they by default come with small shank receivers.

The King 2280 has a large-shank receiver.

I would second the suggestion to go the Wessex route. I've been doubling on one for the past 5 years and have had no issues with the horn. Also Wessex customer service is top notch in my experience.
Have tried Yamaha Custom and Besson Prestige ones that much worse than the Wessex...

The Wessex Dolce is awesome.

I love my JP 274

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:32 am The King 2280 has a large-shank receiver.

Note that the Conn 19I is the same as the King 2280. I use mine for doubling.

The Yamaha YEP-321 is a great horn: sounds great, well built, great intonation, and they're not expensive. It's been the go-to instrument for doublers for years. I had a large shank receiver put on mine and it works great.

If it is just for one semester of lessons, it seems like you might be able to borrow a school horn.

Another vote for the YEP-321. If you can find an older one that's even better. It does take a small shank mouthpiece, but many session people keep them on hand, and they are also popular when Tuba players need to play a "tenor Tuba".

Thanks for all your replies! My teacher really prefers that I get a compensating horn, so after I researched some more, I found out my best bets are probably between the Wessex Dolce Comp 3+1, and the Mack Brass Comp 3+1 horns, if I want to purchase new. My teacher is selling a horn of his too; it's a Meinl Weston 451S fitted with a tuning slide trigger, he's selling that for $4000. It's way over budget for me but I thought I'd mention it to see if you guys thought that was a steal or if it's a pretty fair or average price. Thanks again y'all!

the Wessex's are really awesome horns and I suggest them over the Mack anyday. A school I teach at decided to buy those instead of the Wessex cause they were a bit cheaper. Played on them and they're fine, but no where near as nice as the Wessex.

(but I also put a vote for the 321- awesome horns that I bring to work regularly)

I got a used Wessex in brass for a grand. Looked absolutely brand new. The brass is a bit on the thin side, so cosmetically, you might see some dinged up ones in the used market. Great horn for the price and should be readily available.

Shameless plug, I'm passively selling my King 2280 though it is non-compensating. I actually have a mild preference for them, I've really not played much where the intonation really suffered from having non-compensating. That said, in that price range, I do prefer the YSL321 and the King 2280 to the compensating Euphs. The 321 is really easy to play with an Elliott piece. It's small shank and Doug's "5" shank seems to work really well with it with a deeper cup... something like a K depth for me but the pieces that have a large bore sized throat, small shank, and a Schilke 59ish depth are pretty exclusive to Doug afaik. 2280 is a bit broader. I bought mine to play with the Utah Wind Symphony and I ended up borrowing someone elses' really nice Williams for all the performances I've done with them. I would have felt comfortable on the 2280 but it was hard to pass up playing an instrument worth more than my car.

If you're considering used instruments how about a B&H Imperial? They can be had for a reasonable price and should usually hold their value.

Here's one Adams are selling at the moment for €750, nice of them to consider those that don't want/need to spend thousands on a new Adams euph!

https://www.adams-music.com/shop/produc ... c&lid=1033
(I haven't for any skin in the game, just happened to notice it when I was browsing round their site)

It's a 3+1 compensating instument which in my opinion can make a really sweet sound and the intonation compares favourably with some other (generally larger) designs. I play one myself and with one or two alternative fingerings and a bit of lipping up/down there's no need for a tuning slide trigger. If you're looking for a huge sound or smoother valves there are probably better options but if you like the classic British euphonium sound to sing away on some solos, concert band or the rare orchestral parts it's more than sufficient.

One thing to watch out for is the mouthpiece receiver size, I understand some people changed the receiver from the original euroshank to a large shank receiver. Maybe at some point they even changed to large reciever as standard, I'm not entirely sure. Some people might prefer the original reciever, others the larger version.

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:00 pm I ended up borrowing someone elses' really nice Williams

I wasn't aware that Williams ever made a euph. Did you mean "Willson"?

youraveragebonist117 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:14 pm My teacher is selling a horn of his too; it's a Meinl Weston 451S fitted with a tuning slide trigger, he's selling that for $4000. It's way over budget for me but I thought I'd mention it to see if you guys thought that was a steal or if it's a pretty fair or average price.

The 451 has some … "unique" … pitch tendencies (that the 551 and 751 purportedly—but, at least in my experience, didn't really—fixed). Additionally, MW euphs have a (well-deserved) reputation for "fussy" valves.

$4k for a MW 451 is ok (but on the high side of the price range given the lack of interest/demand for MW euphs), but you can do a whole lot better for (significantly) less.

Now, all that being said, unless you're going to be playing euph regularly, I question the wisdom of purchasing a compensating euph as opposed to non-comp like the Yamaha 321 or a King 2280. (Disclosure: I'm predominantly, as in 90+% of the time) a eupher, and I play a comp euph exclusively.) Ergonomically, non-comp euphs weigh significantly less than comps, and the native intonation of non-comps in the cash register range (bottom of BC staff F to 4th leger line Bb) is typically better* than that of comps, so unless you anticipate playing contemporary euph solos with a meaningful degree of regularity, I'm not convinced that there's a compelling reason to go with a comp rather than a non-comp.

* assuming you're going with a non-comp from reputable, established brand; with stencil non-comps, all bets are off.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:48 am If you're considering used instruments how about a B&H Imperial? They can be had for a reasonable price and should usually hold their value.

The B&H Imperial is (was) a really nice horn (prior to buying my current horn, I owned the Besson equivalent of the Imperial, the New Standard) with a lighter, more compact, and in some ways more euphonious sound than contemporary euphs, however, they were discontinued in the late 1970s-early 1980s, so they're at least 40 (and, depending on the serial #, may be 60+) years old, and repair/replacement parts are next to impossible to find. Personally, I would be reluctant to buy one unless I had the opportunity to have my preferred tech inspect it for hidden issues prior to purchase.

Never played on Wessex, so I can't compare, but I've had my Mack Brass euphonium for about 5 years and it has been a great horn for a very good price. I have not found it prone to denting at all and the sound is very good.

I had previously played a Yamaha 321, but I much prefer the Mack. Not only is it compensating, but once i adjusted to the 3+1 setup, I found it much more comfortable.

There are a few quirks-- getting the 1st valve out without denting the bell requires a bit of care-- but I don't think the Mack is unique in that regard.

BTW, the last I checked Wessex Dolces were not currently available, while Mack Brass euphs were. Tom Mack is a good guy to work with and his warranty is good, so I don't think you can go wrong with a Mack as a doubler instrument.

A significant number of serious euphonium players will have an expensive professional level euph such as an Adams, Besson or Yamaha, but keep one of the JInbao stenciled horns such as Wessex or Mack as a back-up horn. I think that speaks well for using it as a horn for a doubler such as me.

sungfw wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:18 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:00 pm I ended up borrowing someone elses' really nice Williams

I wasn't aware that Williams ever made a euph. Did you mean "Willson"?

Haha /facepalm yeah I did

I just bought a Packer 274 from Midsouth Music (the guy that runs Tubenet). He had a demo horn in stock and gave me a good deal. I should have it on Friday. I am looking forward to seeing what this compensating horn sounds like after 20 years on a non comp. The 274 gets pretty good reviews across the board and one guy on Tubenet says that it is almost as good as an $8K Adams.

Y'all have been tremendously helpful, thank you! I'm gonna play test some euphoniums, specifically the Wessex and the Mack Brass ones to see which I like better. I would just borrow a horn for a semester from the school, or I could borrow my friends backup, but I'd like to own a euphonium anyways at this point, as I teach high schoolers, some of which play euphonium and tuba, so I feel like having a euphonium in my hands would be a better teaching tool than a trombone. Thanks again y'all!

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:39 pm I just bought a Packer 274 from Midsouth Music (the guy that runs Tubenet).

Minor, OT, correction: Joe Sellmansberger, aka "Bloke," (owner of Midsouth) is one of the more, if not the most, prolific posters on Tubenet, but he doesn't run it: in fact, he's not even a moderator. The owner is Sean Chisam (hence, the URL forums.chisham.com); the mods are Farah Chisham (Sean's wife) and Mark Finley.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

youraveragebonist117 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:37 pm I would just borrow a horn for a semester from the school, or I could borrow my friends backup, but I'd like to own a euphonium anyways at this point, as I teach high schoolers, some of which play euphonium and tuba, so I feel like having a euphonium in my hands would be a better teaching tool than a trombone.

OK, this is probably one of those situations that cuts both ways: there's an argument to be made for having a comper (or at least a 3+1 non-comp) if you're going to be teaching HSers who play, or may end up playing, a comper; on the other hand, there's an equally good argument for having a 4-up if the majority of them are playing 4-ups.

Which ever way you go (and it sounds like you're leaning toward a 3+1 comp, although I think you should go with one of these instead), you might still borrow a 4-up from the school. Or you could buy one of each!

When I did lessons with my trombone prof I had a 3+1 comp and he just had a Yamaha 201 or whatever the little three valve is that the university. For technique he simply told me I could use the trigger on a certain passage instead of showing me on his horn.

The best euphonium for doubling will be the least expensive one you can get your hands on that can be finessed to sound good, compensating or not. It's an "investment" that won't pay for itself otherwise, especially if you already play the trombone.

Unless your goal is to become one of the lucky few wind band players on salary, the less you spend on a euph, the further ahead you'll come out on the other end. If your aim is to become anything other than a university level euph teacher, a non compensating student model euph or baritone will suffice. You can teach and sound great on a pretty bare bones baritone setup...

At a particular wind band where the musicians were actually on salary, the band leader asked one of the euph players if he had a degree, and the guy says "yes, a master's in euphonium performance" and the band leader said "oh, thank goodness you're on salary here. Otherwise you'd be {heavily censored}* in a back alley to earn scratch for {slightly less censored}** with that useless degree!"

Even earning back the investment on a pro trombone is dubious for many college students. Don't over think it.

N.B. - suggested readings for the censored info, which is now lost forever to the sands of time.
* = {Doing civic funded work to paint over graffiti}
** = {Your daily Starbucks latte}

OK, this is probably one of those situations that cuts both ways: there's an argument to be made for having a comper (or at least a 3+1 non-comp) if you're going to be teaching HSers who play, or may end up playing, a comper; on the other hand, there's an equally good argument for having a 4-up if the majority of them are playing 4-ups.

That's a pretty good point.

The only euph I'd get other than a compensator would be a King 2280. Trombone players have a hard time with playing euphonium (any valve instrument) in tune. Compensation really only helps trigger range notes. Other than that, it's alternate fingerings, pulling slides, and God forbid lipping notes.

Think of all the altered positions we use on the trombone. Valve players can't do that. It really depends on what level you want to play at.

The 2280 at least gives you a sort of manual compensation option for the low notes, and is the only non-comp to address tuning. It has less stuffiness in the trigger range. Read what the Horn Guys write about this instrument.

sungfw wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:33 pm

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:39 pm I just bought a Packer 274 from Midsouth Music (the guy that runs Tubenet).

Minor, OT, correction: Joe Sellmansberger, aka "Bloke," (owner of Midsouth) is one of the more, if not the most, prolific posters on Tubenet, but he doesn't run it: in fact, he's not even a moderator. The owner is Sean Chisam (hence, the URL forums.chisham.com); the mods are Farah Chisham (Sean's wife) and Mark Finley.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

My bad, Bloke is certainly the most prolific poster on there for sure. Good guy to work with as well. He gave me a killer deal on that horn and payed half the shipping.

I play a Cerveny euphonium 0.590 inch 15mm bore 4 rotary valve with bass shank receiver (tech altered) and a movable main tuning slide. So as a trombonist I can easily play in tune. I like the rotaries as the horn blows smoother without the pop of pistons. Having a similar articulation because of the rotaries is a big help. I think a movable tuning slide to get the upper register in tune is more important then the low range. The movable tuning slide gets the low range ok.

WARNING: Long-winded post. Feel free to skip.

FullPedalTrombonist wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:15 pm When I did lessons with my trombone prof I had a 3+1 comp and he just had a Yamaha 201 or whatever the little three valve is that the university. For technique he simply told me I could use the trigger on a certain passage instead of showing me on his horn.

With all due respect to your trombone prof, that approach may work for teaching the basics, but it's hardly a reasonable approach for teaching the nuances of euphonium performance. I would contend that a euph player who's serious enough to be taking private lessons will be better served in both the short and the long term by somone who has had real world, practical experience of the strengths and technical challenges of the 3+1 and 4-up valve configurations, and can tailor her teaching to help the student take advantage of the strengths and overcome the challenges of the setup of the student's instrument by working smarter not harder, than by a teacher whose understanding of those strengths and challenges is primarily, if not purely, theoretical.

[Disclosure: I took private lessons in junior high and high school from area band directors who were either trumpet or trombone players (because there were no band directors whose primary instrument was a conical brass), who, when they played an excerpt or demonstrated a technique, always did so on their primary instrument, with the (predictable) result that I received no instruction on the use of the 4th valve beyond "use it instead of 13," no instruction on alternate fingerings, and was pushed to develop a "trombone-like" (think valve trombone as opposed to tenor tuba) sound.]

An example: take a 16th note octave run from C2-C3 at quarter note = 120.

The "correct" (conventional) fingering on a 3+1 is 13+1, 12+1, 2+1, 0+1, 12, 2, 2+4, 4. The alternate fingering: hold down the +1 valve and play a 13, 12, 2, 0, 13, 12, 2, 0 pattern with the right hand, requires less coordination beween the left and right hand and is far more quickly and easily mastered.

The run is much more difficult to pull off at speed on a 4-up (1-2-3-4, 1-2-4, 2-4, 4, 1-2, 2, 0, 4) owing to the interconnection between the tendons of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers. (Try air fingering the pattern to see what I mean.) One workaround would be to hold down the 4th valve with the index finger of the left hand and operate the other three valves with the right hand, but would someone who's only played a 3-banger or a 3+1 be cognizant of the physiological challenge posed by the run and of the workaround? Conversely, would someone who's only played a 3-banger or 4-up be cognizant of the alternate fingering possibility on a 3+1?

Or, take high B natural (octave above the BC staff): a notoriously difficult and unstable note. Conventional euph pedagogy is to suggest an alternate fingering: typically 2 or 3, depending on which speaks better on one's particular horn, both of which are prone to slipping to the next partial, whereas 34 (a very unconventional fingering, even as an alternate) not only locks and speaks more easily on every 4-banger (including valve front) I've play-tested over the past 12-15 years, it requires almost no lipping to play in tune: a nuance that someone who hasn't spent time playing the "F side" of a 4-banger wouldn't be likely to know (see, e.g., hyperbolica's post[/i].

Now, granted, 10-15 years ago, when the cost of a reasonable quality (non-ESO) 4-up, much less a 3+1, would have been non-trivial, teaching a double on a 3-banger was understandable; it's much less understandable these days, when a perfectly reasonable to very good quality 3+1 or 4-banger can be had for less $900.

Given the OP's state rationale for purchasing rather than simply borrowing a euph:

youraveragebonist117 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:37 pm I'd like to own a euphonium anyways at this point, as I teach high schoolers, some of which play euphonium and tuba, so I feel like having a euphonium in my hands would be a better teaching tool than a trombone.

I would contend that both the OP and his (her) students would benefit if the OP learned to play both configurations, even if that means borrowing one or the other.

sungfw wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:29 am WARNING: Long-winded post. Feel free to skip.

I would say not to skip this reply. Tons of insight. Though I never said my trombone professor was casually showing me how to play euphonium simply that when we did lessons on euph a bare bones 3 valve was what was available. He lent his horn to another professor doing a run of musicals, but that’s besides the point. At a high level a professor or teacher should have the equipment and most importantly the knowledge and experience to teach.

I would be patient... I got a new condition, fantastic Willson 2900 off of the classifieds for $3K a few years ago... great deals pop up... don’t settle.