TromboneChat

As part of my new routine of back to basics practice, I've spent a bit of time working on my alto trombone intonation and sound.

I've noticed that the G (top line of alto clef) in 1st position is quite sharp. Until now I've been doing a big adjustment with my my lips, to the detriment of sound and endurance. I would have expected this note to be slightly flat if anything, based on the 5th partial (D in 1st position) on all tenor trombones I've played. All notes with the 5th partial seem to be equally affected. The 4th partial seems just right, the 6th is slightly sharp as I would expect, 7th is quite flat, 8th and 9th are ok.

I'm using the Yamaha 48A mouthpiece but have also tried with a couple of others (VB 6.5AM megatone and generic 12C) and not heard much difference.

It's easy to correct, in fact much easier than if it would have been flat, but I was wondering whether other people have noticed a similar effect with this instrument? When I look at the geometry, the tuning slide crook has quite a wide radius, perhaps even wider than some small bore tenor trombones I've played. In many ways it's a really great instrument to play and this is a small inconvenience which I can easily work around.

I don’t play that horn, but that partial is sharp on my alto as well (and the one I had before it).

What tenor do you play where the 5th partial is flat? I’m accustomed to the 5th partial being sharp to varying degrees on every trombone I’ve ever owned, and that’s a lot.

The effect does seem exaggerated on alto.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:16 am What tenor do you play where the 5th partial is flat? I’m accustomed to the 5th partial being sharp to varying degrees on every trombone I’ve ever owned, and that’s a lot.

The effect does seem exaggerated on alto.

I mainly play on an N-series 8h and for me the D in 1st is very slightly on the flat side, it certainly isn’t sharp. Otherwise my 6h and 48h are also very slightly flat, even less than on the 8h but still marginally low. My modern 88h is bang on for the D in 1st, again not at all sharp.

On the 671, for me the right place for that G is about a third of the way between 1st and 2nd. I thought perhaps I was tensing up and forcing it but when I go up to the next partials everything is where I expect it again.

Hmm... It's been 30 years since I regularly played on an 8H or 88H, so the memory is a little foggy, but that's surprising to me.

That partial is flat on a lot of trombones. Especially older designs.

The weirdest thing about that partial that I've found is that it seems like on every horn I own the tuning needs to be crunched in towards C, or F# on alto, towards a spot near the bell. This seems to defy the laws of physics, but tuners don't tell lies. So D is pretty sharp, C is pretty much aligned with Ab, and the outer positions actually need to be pulled in. On Alto, the G is very sharp, but the F is flat. F# is where you'd want it to be. Weird!

5th partial = D partial on tenor, G on alto? Just to make sure we are all on the same page...

There is some argument about partial/harmonic/overtone numbers.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:59 pm That partial is flat on a lot of trombones. Especially older designs.

The weirdest thing about that partial that I've found is that it seems like on every horn I own the tuning needs to be crunched in towards C, or F# on alto, towards a spot near the bell. This seems to defy the laws of physics, but tuners don't tell lies. So D is pretty sharp, C is pretty much aligned with Ab, and the outer positions actually need to be pulled in. On Alto, the G is very sharp, but the F is flat. F# is where you'd want it to be. Weird!

Ive noticed that too. Don Lucas told us every week at trombone choir too.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:10 pm 5th partial = D partial on tenor, G on alto? Just to make sure we are all on the same page...

There is some argument about partial/harmonic/overtone numbers.

Yeah. Bb pedal is 1, fundamental. The octave above is 2, 3 is F, 4 is octave, 5 is D.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:16 am What tenor do you play where the 5th partial is flat? I’m accustomed to the 5th partial being sharp to varying degrees on every trombone I’ve ever owned, and that’s a lot.

The effect does seem exaggerated on alto.

Almost all trombones are this way, except the horns designed not to (Shires, Edwards).

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:21 pm

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:10 pm 5th partial = D partial on tenor, G on alto? Just to make sure we are all on the same page...

There is some argument about partial/harmonic/overtone numbers.

Yeah. Bb pedal is 1, fundamental. The octave above is 2, 3 is F, 4 is octave, 5 is D.

I get it, but its definitely a point of confusion for many. Ive seen improperly labled overtone charts etc. Ive also had teachers that got it wrong too. It sounded a bit like some of the posts sbove might be confusing things.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:25 pm

bbocaner wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:16 am What tenor do you play where the 5th partial is flat? I’m accustomed to the 5th partial being sharp to varying degrees on every trombone I’ve ever owned, and that’s a lot.

The effect does seem exaggerated on alto.

Almost all trombones are this way, except the horns designed not to (Shires, Edwards).

That's a surprise to me. Most of my antiques (19th century german, french, american, and english instruments) have EXTREMELY sharp 5th partial Ds. And while I'm used to compensating down a little bit on the Shires instruments I used to own, I've had to do the same thing on several Rath trombones I've gotten recently. My ewald meinl sackbuts also have slightly sharp 5th partial Ds. My ewald meinl alto sackbut has a VERY sharp 5th partial G.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:10 pm 5th partial = D partial on tenor, G on alto? Just to make sure we are all on the same page...

There is some argument about partial/harmonic/overtone numbers.

Partials and Harmonics should be the same. The overtone series will be one lower, because it starts with the Fundamental, and then Overtones.

1st Overtone = 2nd Partial = 2nd Harmonic

Also, trumpets do not have a fundamental. When the ratio of the bore to the length of the instrument reaches a certain amount, the pedal note will not speak. Brass instruments are basically taking a semi-closed ended tube and making it behave like a tube open on both ends. This is why it is so hard to have an instrument, mouthpiece, and human combo that produces in tune partials.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:21 am

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:10 pm 5th partial = D partial on tenor, G on alto? Just to make sure we are all on the same page...

There is some argument about partial/harmonic/overtone numbers.

Partials and Harmonics should be the same. The overtone series will be one lower, because it starts with the Fundamental, and then Overtones.

1st Overtone = 2nd Partial = 2nd Harmonic

Also, trumpets do not have a fundamental. When the ratio of the bore to the length of the instrument reaches a certain amount, the pedal note will not speak. Brass instruments are basically taking a semi-closed ended tube and making it behave like a tube open on both ends. This is why it is so hard to have an instrument, mouthpiece, and human combo that produces in tune partials.

I understand this, but was trying to add some clarification to head off confusion.

I also just looked at a ton of slide position charts trying to decide which to use in my trombone tech class (teaching music ed majors low brass) and noticed some discrepancies so this has been on my mind lately. Many band directors mistakenly call low Bb the first partial and I’d like to make sure my students get it right.