TromboneChat

Could anyone please suggest some exercises or method books that will help me develop killer pedal tones. Mine are fair/good now, but I would like to develop aggressive, loud, edgy, sustained pedals.
Currently playing on a 72H with a Denis Wick 0AL mouthpiece.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Phil Teele’s book.

Yes, also the two book by Lew Gillis are very good. The good pedal tones cost a lot of time!

Some practice.

Do a whole bunch of pedal tones.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:05 pm Some practice.

Been practicing for 2 months! Getting a little better. Obviously practicing improperly!

For a slightly less facetious answer...

The trick to really great pedals is to play them efficiently, with a lot of core. Don't go for the widest, largest pedal sound right off the bat- this ends up sound very woofy and doesn't have any pitch center for a listener to lock onto (much less the section). For me, this means a setting much closer to the range above than a big crazy shift, but everyone is different.

Practice them soft so you can get an idea for how small the aperture can be (especially at the start of the note).

I played lots of simple tunes in the pedal range in different keys. 50 years ago. Still think it is a good way to go.
Many students try to play pedals with a big space between the lips, I used to say "don't hold the lips with a big aperture, blow them apart. But try to keep the M.

Do whatever Rich Bullock does. Unbelievable barking resonance. His sound is so beyond category he's like a fourth section in a big band.

Shift like crazy, and switch from downstream to upstream, or vice versa

Kind of weird, I've been playing the mini pBone mostly for about a month, never could get a pedal tone, until this weekend they started speaking pretty clearly.

They stay in tune if I keep the jaw up and the setting in the range above, like burgerbob said. Drop the jaw and they're easier but very flat.

Make them sound like an extension of the rest of your range, not something completely foreign. I have heard players with "killer pedal tones" and it sounds stupid when it's out of balance with what you sound like above.

Burgerbob's advice 5 posts above this, and basbasun's next post, will help get you there.

It can take years, not months, to get there. Rushing it is not a good idea.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:41 am Shift like crazy, and switch from downstream to upstream, or vice versa

Wow.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:17 am Make them sound like an extension of the rest of your range, not something completely foreign. I have heard players with "killer pedal tones" and it sounds stupid when it's out of balance with what you sound like above.

Burgerbob's advice 5 posts above this, and basbasun's next post, will help get you there.

It can take years, not months, to get there. Rushing it is not a good idea.

Doug, I have to agree. A big band should not be steered from the 4th tbone chair. In the limited time (1 1/2 years now) that I have been a full time bass trombonist I have realized that 1) 90% of the time the bass bone should and must blend with the section 2) 5% of the time the bass bone should be heard but not be obtrusive 3) 5% of the time the bass trombone should be loud, edgy, and in your face!

I'm working on that last 5% right now.

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:41 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:41 am Shift like crazy, and switch from downstream to upstream, or vice versa

Wow.

It was almost a joke...

But lots of great musicians do exactly this....

Suddenly their amazing embouchure will change. The jaw drops and goes forward. The horn starts to angle up. The downstream air suddenly changes to upstream because of this. And great sounding, loud pedal tones come out.

So many people point to George Roberts as a model. I can't even imagine him ever being "loud, edgy, and in your face."

And the same goes for virtually every other great bass trombonist. In my experience it's mostly immature kids who think they need to USE that extra 5%. It's OK to have it, but don't use it.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:55 pm

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:41 am

Wow.

It was almost a joke...

But lots of great musicians do exactly this....

Suddenly their amazing embouchure will change. The jaw drops and goes forward. The horn starts to angle up. The downstream air suddenly changes to upstream because of this. And great sounding, loud pedal tones come out.

James Markey has been doing a100 days in a row practice challenge. One day he worked on Fountains down an octave. I can’t tell you what was going on with his airstream, but there is definitely movement/shift in his embouchure when playing low. He sounds great. It is on his Facebook page. That guy is an amazing musician.

I was going to point out his latest video. Lots of jaw shift. Looks like he goes downstream to upstream. But he's subtle about it!

Lindberg is my favorite example. Crazy shift, total change in air direction from down to up.

Everyone has a shift of some sort down low. No one is denying that, but there's the SHIFT™ that I like to avoid because it's not connected to my other ranges and rather... unmusical.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:13 pm So many people point to George Roberts as a model. I can't even imagine him ever being "loud, edgy, and in your face."

And the same goes for virtually every other great bass trombonist. In my experience it's mostly immature kids who think they need to USE that extra 5%. It's OK to have it, but don't use it.

This is a hard response for me to write. It is one of the reasons I don't like these forum type sites. Because to disagree with a contributor who is held apart as a guru/infallible expert is a hard thing to do.
To be categorized as an "immature kid" by you is quite frankly insulting. You have never played with me and don't know my background.
Now, in my retirement years, when I've switched my emphasis to bass bone, I do know what is needed and sometimes necessary. And to imply that I don't is again insulting.
I am working toward being a better bass trombonist and will not be deterred by your short sighted opinion!
In some situations, especially live performances with limited amplification, a bass trombonist playing a "feature" solo not only needs that last 5%, but is expected to have it!

One thing I rail about is when they mic the band, each sax gets his own mic; there is one mic for every two trumpets; but for the trombones? No mic. And then I hear complaints that I can't be heard over the amplified sound of the bari sax. Grrr.

Since lately, I have been playing more big band than orchestra work, I have been doing a lot of listening to various big bands. What I have found is there are a lot of different approaches to the bass chair. For example, Louie Bellson’s album, the London Gigs, the bass trombonist is throwing heat. Completely different is the Basie Band. Much more blend and ensemble on Basie Straight Ahead than on the London Gigs. As with any music, one needs to be musical and apply one’s craft wisely.

Listening is the first thing you have to do. For the music you play do you even need monster pedal tones? Does the rest of the band work with that in the bottom end? Is that the appropriate approach for the style/era/arrangement of what you’re playing?

Aside from that, like mentioned above, Phil Teele’s book... it’s been helping my focus in on what I lost from being away from the horn.

I hope the extremes of my range/volume capabilities sounds like me still. If I play what’s written and what’s appropriate for the ensemble and it sounds nasty and stanky ( which is fun ) the next time I can practice it’ll be making that part of my playing sound like the rest of my playing. Keep extending those extremes so you’re consistent no matter what’s called for.

You're right, I don't know you or your background. I was replying to what you wrote, not who you are. Your original post with the phrases "killer pedal tones" and "aggressive, loud, edgy, sustained pedals" reminded me of entirely too many mostly college age bass trombonists who think the most important ability is to play extremely loud pedals.

I try to contribute useful ideas here, not insults.

And by the way, Phil Teele's book emphasizes NOT shifting.

So many people point to George Roberts as a model. I can't even imagine him ever being "loud, edgy, and in your face."

And the same goes for virtually every other great bass trombonist. In my experience it's mostly immature kids who think they need to USE that extra 5%. It's OK to have it, but don't use it.

I really have to agree with Doug here.

I don't think I've ever heard someone use that extra 5% and thought that it was exactly what the music needed, even in a big band setting.

I've had some very excellent college and proffesional players literally blow my socks off but if you're making me leap out of my chair that's usually not a good thing. I heard one amazing bass trombonist in particular ruin a performance of Pines of Rome in the fourth movement and another (in a big 5 orchestra) almost ruin a performance of Symphony Fantastique with those pedal Bb's. There's a really fine line with that 5% and even big name players can cross it... even leap over it!

Granted I need to work so much on the other 95% I'm not sure I can even fathom getting that extra 5% right now. Plenty for me to keep working towards!

The Miraculous Mandrin is a situation where as a bass trombonist, you might near that line of ‘Too Much’. It is what the music calls for. It is good to have it in one’s tool belt. I think though, it is like cheese cake from a 5 star NYC restaurant; A little goes a long way and it never hurts to skip dessert after such beautiful meal.

I have played The Miraculous Mandarin, The pedal Bb:s (mf!) in Symphony Fantastic and Pines of Rome and I do agree that music is easily desturbed with too edgy and too loud pedals. In my oppinion it is not nessecary. Loud yes, but not as loud as possible and sertainly not louder than you can play with a good sound.

My big hero, George Roberts never did sound ugly. Even his loud pedal F:s sounded good.
Bass trombone is an instrument where it is good to find the spot where the resonance is, I know it sound cryptical to say that, but for me it is an important thought.
Many young tenor trombonists who is trying the basstrombone are able to play very loud and nasty, hopfully they start to listen to George Roberts and get another idea of sound. Well, I do agree, I do hear some basstrombonists to day who do play louder them the rest of the trombone section.
The tip to the OP about Phil Teely,s book is a good tip, also study Phil,s sound is a good tip.
Loud and low can still be beautiful.
Sorry if I stepped on somebody foot,

Last year I had a chance to ask Bill Holman about his older three trombone charts. Did he have to write in a fourth part to be played by the four trombone band?

He hung his head and shook it a bit, "Yeah, they made me, I had too. I didn't want to because it muddies everything. But everyone's got one, so I had to have it."

Maybe we have different ideas about what that last 5% is. For me this is a good example, especially during the bass bone solo. Before the "Great Corona Shutdown" I was performing this tune at least once a week. Believe me, in a setting where I am not miked, I need that last 5% to land on those low B's and pedal F's on time and with presence. Some advice from burgerbob really helped me down to low B and now I'm working on the pedal range. This tune is all about the low notes. And for me, I need the last 5% to deliver what the tune needs and what the audience wants to hear.

baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:31 am Last year I had a chance to ask Bill Holman about his older three trombone charts. Did he have to write in a fourth part to be played by the four trombone band?

He hung his head and shook it a bit, "Yeah, they made me, I had too. I didn't want to because it muddies everything. But everyone's got one, so I had to have it."

I don’t like bass trombone on swing charts from the 30-40’s for the same reason.