TromboneChat

Hi folks. I was hoping everyone could give me a primer on how the construction of the bell rim affects playability of the horn. It would be great if you could use examples of familiar horns with said construction.

I read a lot about soldered, unsoldered, no bead, bead, etc, but I don't have a good idea of how each of those things affects how a horn will play.

Thanks!

Old school Conns use unsoldered rims, and some models (Vocabell) had no bead at all. The Gen II horns have soldered rims. Bach 36/42/50 all have soldered rims.

Most people find that soldered rims help articulations to speak, and aid in "projection." With unsoldered rims, in my experience, there is a bigger difference between what the player hears and what the audience hears than with soldered rims. I find it difficult to determine whether someone else is playing a soldered rim or unsoldered, but when I'm playing the horn, I can usually tell right away by the sound/feel.

paulyg wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:32 am Old school Conns use unsoldered rims, and some models (Vocabell) had no bead at all. The Gen II horns have soldered rims. Bach 36/42/50 all have soldered rims.

Most people find that soldered rims help articulations to speak, and aid in "projection." With unsoldered rims, in my experience, there is a bigger difference between what the player hears and what the audience hears than with soldered rims. I find it difficult to determine whether someone else is playing a soldered rim or unsoldered, but when I'm playing the horn, I can usually tell right away by the sound/feel.

Actually, really old school Conns have soldered stainless Steel rims, and hand hammered flare/two piece bells..

A caveat: A trombone is more than the sum of its parts and trying to spec the trombone "from scratch" is a fool's errand. With Boutique horns you will have a number of options to try and you should try them without preconceived notions.

The rimless Vocabell was a rather thick bell compared to most. Cutting the rim off a normal bell will make it too delicate to play in normal conditions. You will also note that it's no longer offered.

Closest thing to a modern vocabell I have seen is the Lawler bell flare, where the rim is folded onto itself and flattened. Sound is great, but if you knock into anything with the bell it’s hard to put it back into its traditional shape. He also makes soldered rims ala Bach, which I prefer. But those old conns with the steel rim sound amazing!!

I've seen some very old pre WWII Conns that had soldered rims. Most of the Vintage Conns people are still playing have solderless rims. And as been pointed out the modern production Conns have soldered rims. Personally I like the Modern 88H soldered rim bell a lot, plays more solid, though a bit heavier than the solderless ones. May also be easier to push into very loud dynamics. Plays more like a mainstream modern horn, though a bit less like the ultra responsive and easily colored Elkhart's.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:03 pm http://collections.nmmusd.org/UtleyPage ... .html#rims

I wanted to post exactly these graphics from Heyde. I think it's a bit of a shame that we don't see this variety of rim designs on modern trombones, with pretty much only the French (with the soldered/unsoldered variants) still in use, with Saxon rims on German trombones and the rare American-style instruments that have a garland. I wonder how a wide garland with a Nuremberg rim would sound on a modern instrument.

One other thing to add to the graphic is that when we talk about a "french" bead on a modern instrument (more often trumpets than trombones, but some trombones also have it) - this is different than just the french rim design in the graphic. A french bead is a half-round wire, usually wider, rather than the round wire, so you end up with a bead that is flattened in shape rather than round.

There are also different size wires, and different material. Bronze or steel vs. brass, etc.

As to how they all play - there are so many variables, it's hard to say. It can do one thing to one instrument and do different things to a different instrument.

I was going to mention that "other" French rim but I can't remember which one of my instruments has it. I always thought that flattened rim was what was called "French."

I have two Bach Mercury, from 1941 and 1950. Both have that half-round bead.

Thinking about it, it seems 'logical' that a small trombone with a 7 inch bell needs a somewhat more flexible rim than a bigger one. I'd expect the flattish half-round bead to be less stiff.

paulyg wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:32 am Old school Conns use unsoldered rims, and some models (Vocabell) had no bead at all. The Gen II horns have soldered rims. Bach 36/42/50 all have soldered rims.

Most people find that soldered rims help articulations to speak, and aid in "projection." With unsoldered rims, in my experience, there is a bigger difference between what the player hears and what the audience hears than with soldered rims. I find it difficult to determine whether someone else is playing a soldered rim or unsoldered, but when I'm playing the horn, I can usually tell right away by the sound/feel.

Had to re-up this. I would not phrase it that there is a greater difference in what the player and audience hears, but that is a great way to think about it. I love the sound (by myself) and the recordings of me playing an unsoldered rim. I can just never hear myself and have no real idea how loud I am playing on one in an ensemble. That could be because I have played mainly Bach soldered rims for 25+ years, but it could also just be because it is giving a different kind of feedback to me that I never learned to interpret. For those that may say I didn’t give it long enough, my primary horn for about 5 years was an Edwards with an unsoldered rim. Loved my recordings with that flare, constantly felt I was working way too hard to figure out what I was doing. Put a Bach flare on that horn and was suddenly much more comfortable with what I could hear. That transition year? Can’t remember and can’t tell the difference in ensemble recordings which horn was which. I have given up and now just know that I am too dumb to figure out the unsoldered rims.

Cheers,
Andy

The Older Selmer Boleros had a larger “french” rim that was rolled over the bell wire.

Klimchak wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:15 am The Older Selmer Boleros had a larger “french” rim that was rolled over the bell wire.

Yes indeed they did , and having owned one of those and also a later one with a conventional bead I much preferred the feel of the old one.

As a previous poster mention a trombone is more than the sum of it's parts and soldered v unsoldered is in my opinion more about feedback to the player than a perceptible difference to the listener.

BellEnd

Older Bachs had the French bead. Here's a picture of the difference.

1981 LT16MG on the left
1930 (pre model number) on the right