TromboneChat

When one has a certian problem with their playing, how can you tell if the problem is the person or the gear. I beleive that the first to blame should always be the person but in the end of the day an instrument is a tool and you need to always use the right tool. So how can you diferentiate between a problem originating from the person and one from the gear.

You can try experimentation with different equipment until you get the results you want, but that can be a long and expensive process. It can also lead you back to the discovery that it's you that's the problem. But in the end it sounds like that's what you want to know, whether it's you or the equipment. The other more efficient way is to take lessons with a person that can analyze your problems and give you insight. Both methods cost money, time, patience, insight, and the willingness to learn.

I believe that the first to blame should always be the person

What leads you to this belief? And how is it conform to using the right tool for the job at hand? Obviously you would likely say that a bass trombone is generally an inappropriate instrument to play lead in a big band, yet if you were to take the first statement you would blame yourself first and keep practicing on it rather than switching. Horns of increasingly similar characteristics are no different, they are just more similar than different vs. horns with radically differing bore sizes.

You get the best horn, pipe and mouthpiece you can find... best is of course the ultimate can of worms... but let's say solid, tried and tested mainstream gear....
Then you work out how to play it.
You have to learn how each instrument works....EVERY instrument has good and bad points, things that are easy, things that are hard .... YOU adapt.
How many people are willing to pay a high level pro to select their equipment? It would be a good investment...no, a great investment.
I make sure that my students are playing really nice equipment that suits their concepts....then we forget about it.
The soft machine adapts, the hard machine doesn't.
Chris

I've run the gamut of hardware, and really came back to where I started. You don't - nay, CAN'T - fine tune your selection until you reach a certain point in your development. Take Chris' advice and get your teacher to set you up and help you select a solid instrument. If you just enjoy messing with new hardware and have money to burn, it is fun, but don't expect it to solve your playing problems. If anything, messing around will just prolong some of your issues, since it's hard to work out problems when you're constantly learning new hardware.

I like what Chris said, and I just want to add that I always look for things that make my personal playing easier. Once you're developed enough, a horn will always sound like you, but it can always make your life harder.

And also, endless experimenting doesn't get you anywhere, if I test something out, it's at minimum for a week, if not longer.

You'll likely know within a day if a mouthpiece makes any appreciable difference to your playing. Ditto leadpipes. That's assuming you techies yourself and/or play it in an enable situation. An entire instrument probably longer.

Experimenting can be fun and very eye opening if you've got the time, cash, and patience.

I can't remember where this line came from, but I like the idea

If [insert great trombone player here] plays your horn and sounds better than you, the problem isn't the horn.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:10 am You get the best horn, pipe and mouthpiece you can find... best is of course the ultimate can of worms... but let's say solid, tried and tested mainstream gear....
Then you work out how to play it.
You have to learn how each instrument works....EVERY instrument has good and bad points, things that are easy, things that are hard .... YOU adapt.
How many people are willing to pay a high level pro to select their equipment? It would be a good investment...no, a great investment.
I make sure that my students are playing really nice equipment that suits their concepts....then we forget about it.
The soft machine adapts, the hard machine doesn't.
Chris

Best advice anyone is going to see here. Miss you Mr. Stearn.

Soft machine is adapted far more easily than the hard machine. Hard machine is expensive to adapt.

This begs the question, though- how does the player know when to adapt either of these things?

From the very limited perspective afforded to someone who mainlines classical music, and appreciates different (but good) section sounds, changing gear to match/color the section sound is the last option... but it can be the ONLY option. Think about all of the classic nits picked with a section of three (only three!) players- note length, intonation, rushing/dragging, balance... none of those can be appreciably eased by changing equipment. Only when articulation is brought into the mix does the hard machine even get on the map, and even so, it is possible to match pretty well on drastically different equipment. So from a section standpoint, the only reason to change/match equipment would be to achieve a desired color for a section sustain with relative ease. If that's your biggest problem in a section, then congratulations- you're at a stratospheric standard of playing.

From the personal standpoint, i.e. "the sound in my head is the sound I hear," it is much easier to get wrapped around the axle. Though the requirements are somewhat different than with ensemble playing, I'd posit that learning how to play with good support, and faithfully to what is written on the page, is possible on an instrument that has not been custom-fitted to the player. Good habits of intonation, note length, and phrasing can be developed, and good music made, on an instrument that isn't an ideal fit to a player's concept or physiology. At this point, gear selection becomes a matter of ease- does a different mouthpiece or horn make it easier to accomplish some goal? The GOAL must first be understood in order to answer that question.

I have to admit that this seems like we’re thinking about this too much.

My running shoes never made me faster.

My paintbrush never made me a better artist.

Unless you’re trying to play on a Bundy or something most if not all pro horns nowadays are excellent. Sure each horn will have its foibles but how much will that affect a players overall sound, technique, range, etc? I say not much.

But I do wish it were true sometimes.

Well, my running shoes, a pair of Hoka One One Cliftons, did, in fact, help me run faster, farther, and longer.

Getting the mouthpiece rim size and shape for the player solves so many problems. It's easy to blame the player, but that part of equipment equation was huge for me.

Get them Nike vapor flies. Proven to make runners faster.

Sabutin used to say this all the time.
FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:10 am
You get the best horn, pipe and mouthpiece you can find... best is of course the ultimate can of worms... but let's say solid, tried and tested mainstream gear....
Then you work out how to play it.
You have to learn how each instrument works....EVERY instrument has good and bad points, things that are easy, things that are hard .... YOU adapt.
How many people are willing to pay a high level pro to select their equipment? It would be a good investment...no, a great investment.
I make sure that my students are playing really nice equipment that suits their concepts....then we forget about it.
The soft machine adapts, the hard machine doesn't.
Chris

You want to fix something, you need the right tool. Sometimes you can get away with close to the right tool like using a claw hammer to pound metal instead of a ball peen. Then a better hammer will hold up better and give you a better feel for what you are doing. Things are never perfect, but tools in the box help get the job done.

The trombone is a tool. Better tools and a better match will be better. Not so good will still work.

Some tools make a more of a difference. A second valve on a bass. A hand rest to fix a grip issue.

Some tools fix individual issues. Because of a migraine condition from being electrocuted I lost my doodle tongue and double tongue. I can do about 5 to 8 notes then I am tied up. My jazz solos missed the fast notes. So I bought fast notes with equipment. I made a 1st valve tuning (Ab) for my small horn and now I use alternate fingerings rather then a fast tongue to play fast.

My euph has a movable tuning slide to help get the high range in tune. For me lipping down a high F is hard and sounds bad. Move the slide and it sounds good easy. I don't have compensating valves because down low I can do just fine.

The rest of my horns help me get my issues fixed so I can play well.

Good horns and equipment are nice. They make a difference.

I get good brakes on my truck too. Same reason.

whitbey wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:09 am You want to fix something, you need the right tool. Sometimes you can get away with close to the right tool like using a claw hammer to pound metal instead of a ball peen. Then a better hammer will hold up better and give you a better feel for what you are doing. Things are never perfect, but tools in the box help get the job done.

The trombone is a tool. Better tools and a better match will be better. Not so good will still work.

Some tools make a more of a difference. A second valve on a bass. A hand rest to fix a grip issue.

Some tools fix individual issues. Because of a migraine condition from being electrocuted I lost my doodle tongue and double tongue. I can do about 5 to 8 notes then I am tied up. My jazz solos missed the fast notes. So I bought fast notes with equipment. I made a 1st valve tuning (Ab) for my small horn and now I use alternate fingerings rather then a fast tongue to play fast.

My euph has a movable tuning slide to help get the high range in tune. For me lipping down a high F is hard and sounds bad. Move the slide and it sounds good easy. I don't have compensating valves because down low I can do just fine.

The rest of my horns help me get my issues fixed so I can play well.

Good horns and equipment are nice. They make a difference.

I get good brakes on my truck too. Same reason.

This often quoted 'right tool comparison has one major problem...most people, and I really mean most people, do not really know what a good tool, trombone wise, is.
Hell, there are enough pros that keep searching, and they should know what they want.
Just look at leadpipes...dreadful in one trombone, great in another...huge variation between examples that are supposed to be the same.... yet each carries a maker's description and are talked about by players as if they were a claw hammer.... just go buy one and it will do this, this and this.... if only.
If people were more logical in selecting equipment and getting good advice in their choices then they could just get on with playing.

Chris

Everyone gets bored of their equipment and wants something new and different. Even if there was a perfect horn I bet you would still get bored in the same amount of time that you would for any horn and would switch to an inferior horn. People don’t want perfection really they want something unique and cool that they can constantly change over and over.
I think if you understand from the start and focus playing really good on a ok horn a horn that a school lends to their students your be far above the average.
Everyone instinctively thinks it the equipment but it’s going to be them 9/10 times it not the instrument it’s you
You don’t need axil valves with a carbon bell and a vintage slide a student horn does the same thing

I tend to try to assume it’s me. Sometimes it is the horn, though. Valves can leak, stress can occur from a drop that you don’t notice cosmetically, gunk can build up... Your concept may change, too and you can’t always play how you want with equipment that does something different. It’s not as easy to efficiently screw together ikea furniture with a flathead when you need a Phillips. Too much work. Just use the right tool. But don’t forget to not torque your wrist.

So choose the horn that works and do what you can to play it how you’re supposed to.

Always assume it's you first. If and when it's not (maybe months later, many hours of playing) then you think about changing something.

I've definitely played stuff that I liked at first glance that got worse over a long period for how my playing changed.