TromboneChat

I found this king 6b that was being sold for parts, scooped it up for 600 cheapest I’ve ever seen a bass trombone go for. It’s like a 4/10 and needs a ton of repairs.
Don’t really know what I’ll do with it as for modifications.
I’m planning on getting a butler slide and selling the original slide and case and I’m looking into CL or Hagmann valves
Want some advice as for what I should do and I don’t want to spend more than 3000 preferably less.
Should I switch it from dependent to independent and who should I send the bell to do the restoration and modification work
Sorry don’t have better photos
Thanks

I'd just have the obvious stuff taken care of- dents, slide, valve paddles split, D slide. Once you have a working 6B you can decide what you want to have changed.

Looks like the E paddle is MIA -- all the parts afer the lever. Also missing the screws on top of the valve spindles.

For not too much money hou can get it to be a basic 6B (with a flat E 2nd trigger).

Once it's back in playing condition look into a D slide and splitting the paddles.

I wouldn;t put a lot of customization work into it. For the most part people like 6Bs as they came with the possible exception of the split triggers. Once you get it sorted out you may like it that woay too.

The D slide is pretty mandatory. The only time the flat E tuning is useful is if you happen to be playing Bartok in an orchestra.

Duo Gravis slides are generally good slides. I'd get it a complete slide job and see where things are. If you decide you don't like the slide, you can probably sell it for more than the cost of the slide job, and that will pay for a piece of your Butler slide.

Since you have to replace the E paddle, I would just go ahead and have a finger trigger for the second valve done now. If you already know you like the paddle layout on the Duo Gravis then just get a replacement part. (I doubt this is the case given that you are talking about replacing the valves with Hagmanns.) The valves on the Duo Gravis are good. I'm not sure you need to replace them. You should be able to get all it needs done under $1K.

I have a Duo Gravis that has split triggers and a D slide, if you like Duo Gravis that's all you need to do. I'd like to try different leadpipes, as I suspect the King leadpipe, though responsive, is also one of the reasons that theses horns get so bright so fast. Will have to put a non King slide on it to see if the different pipe makes that much difference. I once had the chance to play a Duo Gravis that had thayes installed on it, and yes it really opened the horn up! I've often wondered what a Duo Gravis would sound like with interchangable lead pipes and more open valves. To bad King doesn't re enter the market with something like that!

Adampreav wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:51 pm I’m planning on getting a butler slide and selling the original slide and case and I’m looking into CL or Hagmann valves

The butler slide takes about 1/3 your budget (possibly more). It might make more sense to try to see what you can do with the slide. Worst case scenario, I think you should be able to find... Benge 290 or other UMI inner/outers that are at least mostly compatible with your slide. Then I'd see what the budget was after that spot. You definitely don't want a horn with a bad slide and unlike many other brands, you'll seldom if ever find a used one you can slap on. If this were a Bach 50 that recommendation would obviously be quite different.

That said, if the slide is irredeemable, meaning that you'd have to get a full slide... you can go Butler... a new slide with inners etc. is like $1500 so that's 50% of your budget. However, if you're willing to scrap it, you can then decide if you want the original valves or really just the bell. You can swap out the slide receiver for a Bach, Edwards, or Shires without too much effort if you also replace the valves. You're looking at $$$ but if you get say, a used Bach 50 slide for $600 you can then blow the rest of it on the valves if you want to and still come in under budget.

On the other hand, if you get slide work done, it may well be fine and cost ~$2-300. That gives you a lot of wiggle room. I'm not sure how easy it would be to get CL valves... but Hagmann are easily obtained. I actually thought about doing either that or Rotaxes on a 6B I had a number of years ago. The issue is that you really won't be able to re-use much tubing, especially if you decide to go with traditional bass-bore .570 - .593 tubing. The stock tubing is .562 which is traditionally the same as what you'd use on a tenor.

Having now done several projects with custom tubing and whatnot... there is definitely something to be said about being able to get bends and linkages reliably. The one thing that looks like you might run into an issue with on the existing horn and the only reason I say this is that unless they are including the linkages in a baggy and they just got removed... you'll probably have to go custom and it isn't always cheap to get something done, especially on a configuration like the 6B. And if you're thinking about swapping the valves out anyway... there's definitely something to be said about just ordering some progressive bore Hagmanns with all the tubing and linkages and just having your tech pop those in and be done with it. I'd probably go with TSBF+TSBDc, which is their "progressive" bore which emulates a neckpipe taper given that they all seem to cost the same and that might give you a good compromise between keeping .562 tubing and going full on .593.

Other options are, of course, used. If you're patient you can get decent valve sections coming up for around the $1.5-2k figure. They aren't always a "drop in", not meaning that they would take no effort, but in that they would possibly take some re-configuring of the neckpipe/bell section to get them to be compatible. Possibly adding a second bell brace on top.

Rotors are also possible but like I said, the tubing is totally different. Even if you got .562 tubing, finding something with the port configuration of the valves you have might be a challenge if not impossible... (it might not be too, that would be something I'd talk about with a tech before pursuing).

Should I switch it from dependent to independent and who should I send the bell to do the restoration and modification work

I've seen Osmun do literal magic to some pretty wrangled bells. Same with Don Sawaday in CA. That list is not exclusive... there are some really fantastic techs out there (and that post here), I've just likely never personally seen before/after of their work specifically in restoration. That said, your bell doesn't look like its in that bad of shape so I might not worry about it. I've seen some fantastic work coming out of M&W. And I've personally worked with Jeff at Long Island Brass who made the valve section for my Shires bass with Instrument Innovations rotors. Jeff actually did a similar horn not too long ago putting .562 Rotaxes on a bass and even used a Duo Gravis sheperd's crook like from the F attachment.

You'll get as many opinions as responses. I think you get the most out of it if you restore it. The Duo Gravis is a smallish bass. Putting big valves on it would change its character.

Certainly split the triggers, and definitely at least replace the slide crook.

The DG is a bass from a different time. The E valve is usable as long as you don't mind using 6th and 7th Position. Stll you may want an Eb or D slide.

Don't fall into the trap of trying to make the DG something it isn't. Make maintenance and usability changes, but don't change its character.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:37 am Don't fall into the trap of trying to make the DG something it isn't. Make maintenance and usability changes, but don't change its character.

Wise words. If you later want to sell the horn the next buyer probably want a 6b because of it's character. It is a very special horn.

/Tom

I'm not sure why it would be a trap to make it into something it isn't. The initial conversions of Bach 50s into indy thayer valves were in a similar vein and ended up being immensely popular. I've seen a few similar conversions for Duo Gravis over the years and they all seem to be well received by their owners. Take this example from Noah Gladstone from a few years ago:

Custom King Duo Gravis Wow

Another killer custom bass trombone, this time based on a King Duo Gravis. It has a vintage DG bell flare with dependent Getzen rotary valves, original King slide with a Bach 50 slide crook. This thing is a BEAST, it shreds sax players for lunch and shames trumpet players for dinner. Might be one of the best playing commercial style bass trombones I've ever had at the shop. Also has a harmonic brace installed which fits Edwards harmonic pillars. $2800 without

I also vaguely remember this selling a few years ago:
And it having similar complements.

It isn't quite the same as taking a pristine Elkhart 8H and putting a Thayer valve on it. Particularly in its present condition and particularly since the parts are - to the best of my knowledge - no longer in production, making it possibly difficult to replace critical elements of the instrument. By all means, that isn't to say that the Duo Gravis isn't a great horn as-is but it is at least marginally limiting in its present form, for better or for worse, seldom used for classical playing. A new pair of rotors isn't going to completely change that wholly but on the same hand, a new pair of rotors isn't going to change that completely. And such a procedure for this horn is not without precedent.

I played with a professional player who use an unmodified 6b "duo gravis" silver sonic for classical playing a couple of months ago. His horn had the original dependant triggers and a D-slide. We played classical trombone quartets and his sound fit the music very well. He is a symphonic player who works in a europeean symphony orchestra with that horn. It is his main horn.

My concern is strictly the resell value of that 6b. I know why I bought a horn like that and as a collector I know I pass on all horns that has been altered too much. To me is "too much" when it has a risk of changing the character in a way the blow or sound no longer feels like the original horn. It is the point were the horn has lost it's original character. It could be it has been altered to be a "better" horn than the original, it has nothing to do with that. "Better" is very subjective. To buy unseen of eBay is always a hazard.

If you are not a collector and you can try the horn before you buy then it is another thing. It could be a budget inline Thayer King-Shires.

I never forget when I played about 20 modified Conns in a shop over here. All had been transformed to doubles with inline Thayers. I'm sure it had been professionally done. At the time I already had the original horns at home. I played everyone to compare and my discovery from that was the character of the horns were lost. They were not bad horns but they were changed to something they were not meant to be. I did not like their sound and I did not like how they played. I would not want any of those horns even if they cut the price to half. If I would buy something like that I would buy a Shires, Rath or a modern Thayer Bach. A collector who wants a 70h does not want a double inline 70h that has lost its character.

/Tom

The trap is you've got this cheap horn that needs repairs, and a desire for something other than what you have. And then you have certain people with an obsessive urge to torch egging him on. Like the guy trying to turn a Shires into an 88h.

Its probably not going to become what you want. You'll be disappointed and try to sell it, but no one wants whatever it has become.

If you want something with big valves, why not start with something with big valves rather than something that derives its character from small valves. You'll put a lot of money into it, and it will be worth 30 cents on the dollar.

Buying used is the cheapest way to go. Modifications are often more expensive than buying new when it comes to how much you lose just walking out of the shop with it.

Your all right I’ll keep the bell section original except for the linkages.
I’m still interested in a new slide section.
should I restore the slide and try to sell it to pay for the new one or should I just buy a butler outer slide which will be 900 all included and fix the inner tubes.
should I buy used shires and convert that or just keep the one I have.

I've thought of going Butler myself, but consider this. If you lighten only the slide, will the horn be uncomfortably back heavy? There's no counter weight to remove. Maybe a tuning slide too?

If you want to graft a foreign slide you will need to replace the receiver on the bell section. King slides have the nut on the slide section and threads on the bell. Most other horns work the other way.

You might be able to "score" a King 7B or 8B slide through somebody like DJ Kennedy. For all I know they might even be available through Conn-Steinway.

From what I can see of your photos the main problem is the crook, which shouldn't set you back too much. I wouldn't panic over the stocking wear. You can polish it clean and add a dollop of Trombotine (work it in). Some will put a sublayer of Pledge wax under your regular lube.

Not sure what the market would be for a second hand 6B slide. And the issue you'd run into is, if you were to order new from Butler, would be getting a tenon that was compatible. You'd need to either swap out the handslide receiver and get something more "standard" or take the tenon off the King slide. In either case, pretty small market for people wanting a 6B slide, whether it had a King tenon or a Bach or similar tenon. If you can even do it... the tenons aren't always "hot swappable."

The trap is you've got this cheap horn that needs repairs, and a desire for something other than what you have. And then you have certain people with an obsessive urge to torch egging him on. Like the guy trying to turn a Shires into an 88h.

Its probably not going to become what you want. You'll be disappointed and try to sell it, but no one wants whatever it has become.

If you want something with big valves, why not start with something with big valves rather than something that derives its character from small valves. You'll put a lot of money into it, and it will be worth 30 cents on the dollar.

It's not much of a trap if there is both precedent for selling the horn at around (or possibly below) break-even point and for such a horn to have been described so favorably by a well respected commercial player.

And I think my response is probably the most positive response the OP had and I've had employment contracts that had fewer conditionals than those paragraphs, so I'd hardly consider that "egging" him on - as if that were inherently a bad thing either way.

Given that the OP now knows some of the general options and still elected to have custom linkages made but keep the rotors, it would seem that any worry about "egging" someone on to spend something well within their budget is unfounded and now they likely have a better understanding of why one might recommend not going through with putting the torch to it.

That aside, as to why someone would start with big valves rather than something with small valves... I believe I'm the only person who mentioned possibly putting larger valves on it and it was in the context of the advantages of getting a valve section from someone who provides both the linkages and the tubing and being done with it, which a Hagmann would do and, as I indicated, be a compromise between "tenor" bore valves and a full size .593 swap; not a recommendation about how imperative it was to change the character of the horn.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:16 pm You might be able to "score" a King 7B or 8B slide through somebody like DJ Kennedy. For all I know they might even be available through Conn-Steinway.

I have an 80s production 7B that has a slide from an other King bass. It is .562 and looks older than my bell section, and my tech said it is probably from a Duo Gravis. The tenon is larger in diameter than what my horn takes, as it doesn't go in all the way and when fully seated the collar doesn't cover all the threads on the receiver. That said, a 7B or 8B slide might not fit your DG. Shop carefully. Me, I would love to swap my DG slide for one that fits, or at least get the right tenon someday.

I might of sent a pm too one of y’all on accident so don’t get confused if you see it.
I agree with what your all saying I got a good horn at a steal and naturally want to pimp it up. I need to really think about modifications and resell value and just be smart with my decisions. I need to see the horn in person, call techs and see what I’ll be spending then look at modifications
And for the butler slide I was thinking about keeping the original slide and changing out the outer slide Dave makes them specifically for the duo gravis the weight will be an issue but I can buy a carbon fiber tuning slide and that should fix it because I’m keeping most of the original slide including more weight.
Let me know if you guys see a butler 6b slide being sold on here.
Thanks

I like the case!

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:13 pm I like the case!

You see those two plastic tabs holding the bell section? They always break. You wind up bulking the area above the bell section with foam to keep things in place. I had a King 4B with that problem and a friend had a King 4B with that problem. I didn't carry my 7B in the case long enough to break mine -- got an Altieri bag and have been using one ever since (on my 2nd).

I was thinking the same thing the case will be the first thing I switch but I won’t start doing repairs and such till this quarantine stops probably a month or two at the most

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:30 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:13 pm I like the case!

You see those two plastic tabs holding the bell section? They always break. You wind up bulking the area above the bell section with foam to keep things in place. I had a King 4B with that problem and a friend had a King 4B with that problem. I didn't carry my 7B in the case long enough to break mine -- got an Altieri bag and have been using one ever since (on my 2nd).

If that happens again, let me know. I got some strong acrylic plexiglass in clear and a high grade plastic in milk white and made my own. I have plenty of material left to make more. Not pretty, but they work.

That's funny, I've owned several dgs over the years and I've never had a case that had them to begin with !

So you bought this horn and don't have a clue how it plays. Fine-I wouldn't either. So I'd do this in stages. 1. Fix the slide and have any dents in the bell section taken out. If you then say "hey I kinda dig this horn but the linkages suck" then 2. get those done. If you say "man this horn sucks" then I'd sell it without getting the linkages done. King valves were generally good open valves. I played a DG for several years and had zero issues with the valves. At this point adding fancy valves or a carbon fibre slide is, like John Swallow said several times, "polishing a turd."

so I'll keep things original execpt for the linkages becuase the triggers already need replacing and i cant stand strings it would take me an hour just to string them up and they would be wrong.
I need a d slide where can i get one made or is anyone selling, i want it to match so preferably used
im deciding between 2 shops Brass ark and osumun for an overhaul any advice would help.
I need to start thinking about finishes should i go raw, relaquer, or replated I'm leaning towards replating.

Osmun and Brass Ark are at opposite ends of the country. Which is closer to you?

At Osmun it's Jim Becker and at Brass Ark it's Brad Close (brassmedic on the Chat). I can vouch for Jim, who has done excellent work for a number of friends. I'm sure Brad gets similar kudos from our folks on the "shaky side".

Other possibilities are Eric Edwards (Bonearzt) and Benn Hanssen. Eric is located in Texas and Benn in Washington State.

You might be best suited calling around to someone to see if they have experience. A tech may well have already worked on the DG and done possibly this exact procedure and knows what to do. That alone will cut down on the cost by possibly quite a bit. R&D for a one-off is hard. That said, Eric Edwards did a phenomenal job converting a horn to a Duo Gravis linkage. Mine is setup quite differently but I really wanted the levers like the DG. He custom bent some rods for me and came up with quite a nice solution.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:12 pm I'm sure Brad gets similar kudos from our folks on the "shaky side".

Ha ha. The whole world is pretty shaky right now, I'm sorry to say. Let's hope we can set the course straight soon.

Adampreav wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:32 pm so I'll keep things original execpt for the linkages becuase the triggers already need replacing and i cant stand strings it would take me an hour just to string them up and they would be wrong.
I need a d slide where can i get one made or is anyone selling, i want it to match so preferably used
im deciding between 2 shops Brass ark and osumun for an overhaul any advice would help.
I need to start thinking about finishes should i go raw, relaquer, or replated I'm leaning towards replating.

Where do you live?

I live in Alabama. I definitely don’t want to send it to the other side of the country let alone to multiple people to do different work.
Osmun is 20 hours away but I do want more options on who too send it too

Another huge factor when dealing with techs is who has time. It would not be unreasonable to expect some of these shops to quote you work that is 6 months out, under normal circumstances. Of course in the current corona environment, it could go either way. They could be cleaning up rentals returned early, or they might have nothing to do. Asking us really doesn't accomplish much. Call the techs and talk to them.

Adampreav wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:47 am I live in Alabama. I definitely don’t want to send it to the other side of the country let alone to multiple people to do different work.
Osmun is 20 hours away but I do want more options on who too send it too

From where you are, metro Dallas is a lot closer. Contact Eric Edwards.

Adampreav wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:47 am I live in Alabama. I definitely don’t want to send it to the other side of the country let alone to multiple people to do different work.
Osmun is 20 hours away but I do want more options on who too send it too

Ok. Got it. Hyperbolica makes some great points. Just be aware that it will cost you around $75/$100 to ship each way so you have to add that into your decision. I've heard some great reviews regarding the work that many have suggested here on this thread. Reach out as was suggested to see who is taking work and their time frame. After you've done that you can make an informed choice. Good luck.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:27 am

Adampreav wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:47 am I live in Alabama. I definitely don’t want to send it to the other side of the country let alone to multiple people to do different work.
Osmun is 20 hours away but I do want more options on who too send it too

From where you are, metro Dallas is a lot closer. Contact Eric Edwards.

I do not have personal experience with him, but I have heard several positive reports about Rich Ita in Marietta, GA.

One thing about dealing with good techs is that they won't take on a job they can't do well. It's not worth the ding to their reputation when things go south.

Of course, any one of the guys already mentioned could also do the work. I'd add John Sandhagen to that list. But if you want to stay local-ish...

Adampreav wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:47 am I live in Alabama. I definitely don’t want to send it to the other side of the country let alone to multiple people to do different work.
Osmun is 20 hours away but I do want more options on who too send it too

James Baker is a tech in somewhere in Alabama with a great reputation. He used to build slide for Shires. I haven't used him for any repairs, but I have played two slides that he rebuilt and they were OUTSTANDING.

I can also highly recommend Eric Edwards in Tejas.

greenbean wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:10 pm

Adampreav wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:47 am I live in Alabama. I definitely don’t want to send it to the other side of the country let alone to multiple people to do different work.
Osmun is 20 hours away but I do want more options on who too send it too

James Baker is a tech in somewhere in Alabama with a great reputation. He used to build slide for Shires. I haven't used him for any repairs, but I have played two slides that he rebuilt and they were OUTSTANDING.

I can also highly recommend Eric Edwards in Tejas.

Forgot about James Baker! Excellent choice and close to the OP. Contact him to see if he can take your slide.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:01 pm The trap is you've got this cheap horn that needs repairs, and a desire for something other than what you have. And then you have certain people with an obsessive urge to torch egging him on. Like the guy trying to turn a Shires into an 88h.

Its probably not going to become what you want. You'll be disappointed and try to sell it, but no one wants whatever it has become.

If you want something with big valves, why not start with something with big valves rather than something that derives its character from small valves. You'll put a lot of money into it, and it will be worth 30 cents on the dollar.

Buying used is the cheapest way to go. Modifications are often more expensive than buying new when it comes to how much you lose just walking out of the shop with it.

I missed this comment when Hyperbolica posted it, but...

it describes your situation PERFECTLY. (I have been in this situation several times myself.)

James Baker is a horn player in Birmigham, and as mentioned he used to work at Shires.

"Also in demand as a master craftsman, James is the owner and proprietor of Custom Brass Instrument Service in Birmingham, AL where he specializes in repair and custom modification of brass instruments. "

I’ll call James tomorrow, he sounds like the best person to send it to.
One of my biggest worries is the finish it’s looks bad. I want to redo it but should I do raw brass, re-lacquer, satin finish, or a cool antique finish. What will it do to the sound

Can only put 3 photos

Adampreav wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:02 am I’ll call James tomorrow, he sounds like the best person to send it to.
One of my biggest worries is the finish it’s looks bad. I want to redo it but should I do raw brass, re-lacquer, satin finish, or a cool antique finish. What will it do to the sound

Personally, I would just take the dents out and let nature take it's course. If it turns out to be a star, you can address that later. If not, it's unlikely to be worth it. What will make a difference is a D plug-in for the 2nd valve.

sf105 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:31 am

Adampreav wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:02 am I’ll call James tomorrow, he sounds like the best person to send it to.
One of my biggest worries is the finish it’s looks bad. I want to redo it but should I do raw brass, re-lacquer, satin finish, or a cool antique finish. What will it do to the sound

Personally, I would just take the dents out and let nature take it's course. If it turns out to be a star, you can address that later. If not, it's unlikely to be worth it. What will make a difference is a D plug-in for the 2nd valve.

^^ Get it back so it can be played then make that choice then talk to your tech.

I likewise do all of my franken projects either raw brass or mostly raw brass. I plan on eventually lacquering some stuff but it isn't cheap. I'd keep the valve section lacquered and have him make the bell raw brass. They'd do that anyway if you lacquered or satin finished. THat way you can see if you like the polished look. It'll patina but if its a great horn and want it to be lacquered later, they'll just do a light buffing and do whatever else it is to the bell you want.

I owned a 6b and 7B at the same time. The slides were interchangeable, but were built differently, and played very differently pitch-wise, and blow differently when switched. The 6B slide, while a .562 bore, is very similar in width and length to the 4B slide, and feels lighter. I believe the Butler 6B slide matches the true 6B slide specs. I could be wrong. My $0.02.