TromboneChat

Hey guys,

Composer/Arranger from Germany here!

I am currently writing on a piece for a lush live orchestra setting. While transcribing the music from mockup to Sibelius I was surprised that I've actually gone sky-high, towards the high C (C5) in the trombones, while recording them with my keyboard!

I know that playing up to high F or G is still quite easy (right?) and common for trombonists, but I wonder about notes that are beyond that area? I've also did some score reasearch and found that they were going up to maybe high Ab in some film scores, but only in rare cases, and on a side note the orchestra I want to book is certainly a good one, but of course no LSO, or Hollywood Orchestra...I've also found a Jazz piece having them about constantly playing near the high C, but of course it's Jazz, where high trombone lines certainly aren't that seldom. Possibly they also go very high in the days when they were still using alto trombones, but of course those days are long gone, and normally one uses the horns for that range. Though the horns don't have the same focus and "bite" I woud love to have on those notes. Wagner Tubens also would seem rather out of place here I guess.

So what do you think is the highest for a well-trained concert trombonists, within a non-Jazz, session orchestra? Is the high C still approachable? I am also wondering as if directly opposed to trumpets; is a trombone generally easier to intonate and shoot up very high or low, just as of the slide you guys have, or am I on the wrong path here?

Cheers!
-Freshdax

Are you talking about this C? I'd say any professional trombonist should be able to play a pretty comfortable D above that, and in some instances higher.

Alto trombones are still used in the orchestra in many works, as well.

Good tenor trombonists can usually reach (D 4th line of the treble staff in the Great Staff). Many of us can reach F above that. Getting further up can be problematic, though I've heard players go up another octave (but why? there are trumpets for that).

Range on a trombone has to be developed, unlike saxophones where all the notes are there and you just need to figure out which fingers to press.

School age players generally can play from E below the bass staff to F or G above the bass staff.

As the players develop the range goes up. Conservatory players can do up to Bb (middle of the treble staff) or a bit higher. Use of an instrument with an F-attachment allows notes down to C below the bass staff. A double valve bass trombone can play B natural (H if you are German).

Then we get into the pedal notes. Conservatory players on tenor trombones can get to around F (4 lines below the bass staff) and lower with an F-attachment.

Large leaps are not easy on trombone. I'd try to keep them under a tenth and preferably a lot less. Some players use embouchure shifts for different registers and that can interfere with note production if you write stuff that requires these shifts up and down.

We have a lot of experienced teachers here who will be happy to give answers to any questions you may have.

Welcome to the Chat.

Gentlemen can play Bb above middle C easily. Accomplished amateurs can play D an octave + a step above middle C. Show offs can play F an octave and a 4th above middle C.

Composers who like the soloist won't write higher than Bb above middle C. Writing higher than D is considered unfriendly. Higher than f is unreasonable. I've never seen anything above f. Few can really play notes up there.

C5 is not a problem, but what can be a problem is if you have them constantly playing in that range.

As is always the case, if you know the person playing trombone, then it's easy to ask them what their practical range is, and write to that. But, given an unknown player who should otherwise be a pro and not in one of the world-class orchestras that have 5000 people audition every 20 years when an opening comes up, high C# is a good range limit, IMHO. D is playable, but tends to be a somewhat unstable note due to trombone physics. More important than the absolute range, though, is endurance. If you're score-referencing something like Beethoven 9 (for example) and look at the last movement's alto trombone's part's nonstop pounding on the trombonist's face, remember that in Beethoven's time, alto trombones were significantly smaller and more delicate instruments than today's altos - and many trombonists don't have altos and will have to play parts like that on tenors, which is a recipe for disaster. Non-stop playing in that register will break a trombonist. Use that register economically.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:15 pm C5 is not a problem, but what can be a problem is if you have them constantly playing in that range.

Best answer to the question asked.

Thanks all for your very prompt and into detail replies!!

As for alto trombones, and also trombones playing up to an octave (or more) about the middle C - well I've never seen any in my studies of printed film scores. Any ideas where they can be found for film, classical etc.? (brass/wind symphonics excluded)

The orchestra as such is a very good Eastern European Scoring Orchestra. Usually I can record about 1-2 minutes of hard to play material, and 3 or even 4 minutes within a 25 minutes session.

Also, here's an example for the trombones (I wrote them in both the treble and tenor clef):

https://ibb.co/jf095mB

Cheers!
-Freshdax

Looks fun! We trombones definitely like to lay down some volume.

As for score examples, there are tons of public domain scores available for download at:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page

I don't think there are any film scores on there, due to public domain and overly zealous copyright laws, but even so, lots of really useful stuff.

One more thing - It's perfectly OK to write that in bass clef, we're totally used to reading that many ledger lines. Most players would not want to see it in treble, but tenor is acceptable.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this excerpt to compare to that every principal and second symphony trombone player is expected to play.

Not only that, but you play it 3 times. Once solo, once with a group of players, and the last time it shifts gears and goes up to a D natural. Fortunately the last time is in a large tutti and you can be covered if you slip up,

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:46 pm One more thing - It's perfectly OK to write that in bass clef, we're totally used to reading that many ledger lines. Most players would not want to see it in treble, but tenor is acceptable.

Also keep in mind, if you are writing in treble clef, trombonists here in europe will play it one octave down from what you seem to expect.

A few thoughts on this, I would suggest from his first post the op has a misunderstanding of the use of alto trombone, it was nothing to do with with playing high

Secondly from a commercial standpoint do you want your music played by as many orchestra's as possible or one performance by a hand picked brass section then consigned to the cupboard?

Mark nightingale told me about a film session in the 1990's where he was booked on 2nd and the lead trombone was a well known studio player who had come through the old school way and not studied orchestral playing but had been first call for over 40 years.......Mark said this person kept looking at the 2nd part and was clearly unsettled by something...... It transpired the composer had written part of the 1st part in alto clef, musically it made no sense and when during the break he was asked why, the composer he replied...... I read in a book a couple of days ago that trombone players read alto clef so I thought I would just write that section in alto clef

So just because you can, does not mean you should

Freshdax wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:26 pm Thanks all for your very prompt and into detail replies!!

As for alto trombones, and also trombones playing up to an octave (or more) about the middle C - well I've never seen any in my studies of printed film scores. Any ideas where they can be found for film, classical etc.? (brass/wind symphonics excluded)

The orchestra as such is a very good Eastern European Scoring Orchestra. Usually I can record about 1-2 minutes of hard to play material, and 3 or even 4 minutes within a 25 minutes session.

Also, here's an example for the trombones (I wrote them in both the treble and tenor clef):

https://ibb.co/jf095mB

Cheers!
-Freshdax

I say this is well playeble by profesionel tromboneplayers, you don´t need a high note specialist. It is normal. If you work with amatures it could be some issues. The highest note possible for concerts trombonists is well beyond this, but you don't need that, better stay where you are. A good way to find out is to have a good trombonist play your music and you can listen to how it sounds. Swedsish compooser S-D Sandström wrote the Bb a 7nth higher, but he did know i would work since he did know the players. (With-in for 8 trombones)

Don't write in treble clef, the only time it's acceptable and standard is for very high phrases in jazz lead parts. Stick to bass and tenor clef for orchestral writing.

A very good place to look for writing that is idiomatic in terms of the range is french romantic scores. They wrote for tenors, not alto and tenor, for sure (unlike some of the Germanic composers). You'll still find very high note (for instance the Ravel Bolero above, or the Eb in Berlioz's Fantastique. they did write for much smaller tenor trombones that can play in that range with much less effort, but it's still a good indicstor. I would say what you wrote is entirely playable, but whether it's idiomatic or the most efficient way to use your trombones is another question.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:28 pm

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:15 pm C5 is not a problem, but what can be a problem is if you have them constantly playing in that range.

Best answer to the question asked.

I would stretch that to C#. I know a lot of tromboneplayers who think that C# is easy but think the D is problematic. A professional tromboneplayer need a strong F above and a professional soloist a lot more. If we now consider a good non professional orchestra, and you want to write a solo for the good tromboneplayer in that orchestra I would not go higher than Bb if you want the piece to be played even though the tromboneplayer says he nails a C. If it is a very good non professional that reach an F you go as high as C# and if it is a professional soloist you could easy write D and occasional F's.

/Tom

Thank you guys for all the helpful information. The discussion really evolved beautifully.

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:23 am A few thoughts on this, I would suggest from his first post the op has a misunderstanding of the use of alto trombone, it was nothing to do with with playing high

Well, I have been tought that alto trombones were especially common till maybe around 1850, when the horns got their valves - which was a remarkable improvement, as they (the natural horns) couldn't knock off any note possibly, nor play chromatically before...though their material of tones was based on the overtone series. So, the valved horns sort of replaced the alto trombones after all, as the horns turned out to blend better with the rest of brass, but also had (and still has) the function of sort of building a bridge between woodwinds and brass, Guess the alto trombs are still used in brass chorale, concert bands etc? Still, please let me know if I should be wrong in any regard!

Speaking of horns and back to 2020; as I now have moved the trombones so high, they are actually playing above the horns. Did you guys ever played any orchestral music, which included trombones playing above horns? ...and I have to add that I am reffering to sections of trombones, as well as sections of horns. Any ideas?

PS: I am just checking out a printed film score, where the trombones go as high as the high A above middle C, but they are still doubled with horns. So unfortunately that doesn't count.

Cheers!
-Freshd.

Horns usually come in 4s: 2 high horns and two low horns. The F horn is much longer than a trombone and can theoretically play as low as a bass trombone (but not many horn players can pull that off). Their traditional range was in the upper partial series where they could be more chromatic. Much of my symphonic trombone playing has been between the low horns and the high horns.

Brass quintets in Pezel's time would have two cornetts (a lip reed instrument similar in range to a trumpet) or natural trumpets playing in the upper partials like horns. These wold be coupled with an alto trombone, a tenor trombone, and a bass trombone (a horn with no valve but pitched in F or Eb using a very long slide needing a handle to reach the end -- see the avatar of LeTromboniste to see what one looked like). The alto trombone was supplanted by the Horn since the horn's normal tessitura tended to put it in the same range. There is some scholarly research that indicates in some areas of Europe the three trombones (alto, tenor, and bass) were actually all the same length but different bores.

The alto trombone in Eb was relegated to infrequent use because (1) most tenor trombone players were able to play the parts on a tenor, so why keep (and learn ) an additional instrument; and (2) Alto trombones tended to be a little more delicate in tone and were drowned out by the large tenor and bass instruments popular in modern orchestras.

You really shouldn't confuse an alto trombone''s function with an alto sax's function.

I wouldn't really say the alto's relative demise (it wasn't ever used that much yo begin with) had to do with the horns. The horns function in the orchestra expanded with the advent of valves, but it still stayed based on the function it already had, and it didn't take on any role that the trombones ever had in the orchestra. Meanwhile the role of the trombones also kind of expanded somewhat.

The style of writing for trombone also didn't change that much in places where they used alto's and stopped, at least not drastically or immediately.

Trombones don't typically play higher than the horns, at least not all trombones higher than all horns (it's normal for them to often be in the same range or doubling, or the 1st trombone being with the 1st or 3rd horn and the bass trombone with the 4th). But trombones as a section higher than horns as a section, no. It's hard to comment on your writing without a more expansive sample and seeing the trombones in relation to the rest of the orchestra.

In any case, you might want to go back to studying standard repertoire scores in addition to film scores. They're still relevant today and you'll find that first trombone parts very frequently play in that range. In fact I can't think of many 1st parts that don't go at least up to A. Many go to C or D,and a few to Eb or F.

Freshdax wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:51 pm Thank you guys for all the helpful information. The discussion really evolved beautifully.

Speaking of horns and back to 2020; as I now have moved the trombones so high, they are actually playing above the horns. Did you guys ever played any orchestral music, which included trombones playing above horns? ...and I have to add that I am reffering to sections of trombones, as well as sections of horns. Any ideas?

PS: I am just checking out a printed film score, where the trombones go as high as the high A above middle C, but they are still doubled with horns. So unfortunately that doesn't count.

I don't remember any such combination (although quite often we can't actually hear the horns). The question for you is what you want to achieve. I'm guessing that a horn section playing that low would be rather muddy.

The relationship between trombones and horns should be more about the contrasting sound colours, rather than range. That and the fact that we can play in tune

S

jthomas105 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:01 pm I'm surprised no one has mentioned this excerpt to compare to that every principal and second symphony trombone player is expected to play.

Bolero excerpt.gif

Thanks for posting that! Always wanted to try it. I had more trouble with the clef than the high Db.