TromboneChat

What are the differences and rationale behind V cup mouthpieces (e.g., Conn, Olds, Jet-tone, etc.) and cup (e.g. Bach and most others)?

V cup focuses the air into a dense packet which causes more damage when it explodes in the viola section.

V cups are popular with tuba players. The Helleberg and variations are Vs.

I have two V cup mouthpieces for bass bone. They give you a more centered sound, clearer, maybe brighter. To me, on bass, the V allows you to play a bigger mouthpiece without sounding woofy. Sometimes I play one on euphonium, and it lightens the sound.

Horn Guys site says they are more efficient. Some say a V mouthpiece makes a trombone sound more like a French horn.

I haven't seen a totally V cup. Most have a little U shape at the bottom.

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 1:28 am V cup focuses the air into a dense packet which causes more damage when it explodes in the viola section.

This really hits home as my daughter plays viola. Literally made me laugh out loud at work.

I could be wrong, but I think the OP is referring to the exterior shape. He mentions Conn, Olds, and Jet Tone. I don't have a ton of experience with Remington pieces but all of the Connstellation pieces I've played are very "C-shaped" on the inside and the Conn 3s I've played aren't overly-v shaped inside either. Jet Tone mouthpieces I've played, save the Morrow copy, are almost douple-cupped and actually very C-shaped toward the bottom where they go directly into the throat (and by "directly", I mean, you could probably cut yourself on that shoulder). I'm not all that familiar with Olds.

At any rate, if it's the exterior shape, I don't think it makes all that much difference; perhaps it reinforces some resonating frequencies more than others (like the Wick Heritage vs. the Classic).

In terms of how interior cup shape affects the characteristics of a mouthpiece, I'd be very wary about any absolute statements. Stork mouthpieces are all "more v-shaped", but I find that the T1, T2, and T3 all to play with wildly different characteristics. I think sound depends more on where the "slope" starts (someone help me out, is this what Radke calls the "alpha angle?") in the mouthpiece, the "sharpness" of the shoulder, the length of the throat, and most importantly the overall mouthpiece volume (the last two points being consistent with the fact that a mouthpiece is a Helmholtz resonator: https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassa ... mouthpiece ).

But these things are complicated, and are ultimately systems. Some "v-shaped" mouthpieces will play brighter than their counterparts, like a Stork T1 vs a standard 6/12. But the Yamaha Canadian brass is also "v-shaped" and roughly the same size but plays way darker. Gah!

A note about Helleberg style mouthpieces. Helleberg tuba mouthpieces tend to have smaller rims and deep funnel cups. They seem to favor the lower register. I think somebody was playing around with a Helleberg style trombone mouthpiece, but I haven't had a chance to try one.

The exterior shape: "tulip" versus "bowl" mostly deals with the distribution of mass. I tend to play the "tulip" style having grown up on a Conn Remington small shank, although I play Doug Elliott mouthpieces more now. I'm nowhere sophisticated enough to tell the difference between how my Elliotts play as opposed to similar sized Warbutons. I like both.

TromboneMonkey wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 8:58 am I could be wrong, but I think the OP is referring to the exterior shape.

OP may be conflating interior and exterior shapes. This happens pretty often.

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 1:28 am V cup focuses the air into a dense packet which causes more damage when it explodes in the viola section.

Someone has been watching too much TwoSet.

Someone has been watching too much TwoSet.

No such thing.

And trombonists have been terrorizing the violas much longer than TwoSet.

On Tuba the V shaped cups can help focus the sound while keeping a dark tone quality. They seem to work well with American style piston tubas with fat branches. On trombone V shaped cups, with me at least give a dark but not large sound. I think trombones have more character to the sound with bowl shaped cups, and I think this is more important as the cup volume increases. Bear in mind that almost no one makes mouthpieces that are pure V or pure cup shapes, most are a blend of these two characteristics. Also many cup mouthpieces, such as the 6 1/2AL have a cup but also have a flared entrance to the throat.

Jay Friedman's Bob Reeves mpc has a v cup, maybe for reasons mentioned by hyperbolica above.

As Bruce posted, " I think somebody was playing around with a Helleberg style trombone mouthpiece, but I haven't had a chance to try one."
"Sometime in the 70's, Bill Reichenbach handed a bass trombone mouthpiece to me and suggested that I might like it. I assured him that I'd managed to get my 1 1/2G customized to perfection and wouldn't be interested. At his insistence, I popped it into my Conn 70H ---- and didn't remove it for over 20 years ! It was very "funnel-shaped" and that feature is what made me think it wouldn't be to my liking. One day I had my instrument in the shop of Robert Pallansch, a terrific tuba player in The U.S. Army Band and a darned good brass tech. When he saw the mouthpiece he was amazed, because it was really nothing more than a scaled-down Helleberg tuba mouthpiece ! Being a tuba player himself, he had a Helleberg to compare with mine and the similarity was remarkable. Funny thing is that after all these years I still don't know who designed or copied it !

Aren't we talking about V shape versus bowl shape here?

boneberg wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 12:52 pm Aren't we talking about V shape versus bowl shape here?

Yes, but probably the most V-shaped mouthpiece I have is a Helleberg for my tuba.

I have an old French mouthpiece that is also V shaped, but its shank is too small even for small shank trombones.

Note that we are talking the interior of the cup. There are bowl shaped outers and V shaped outers. Most of us can't differentiate the playing characteristics of identical interiors with each outside shape.

And I would also assume that the discussion here has mostly to do with the interior of the mpc. For example, I have a number of Hammond mpcs. with the same rim size, but different cups. The shallower the cup, the more V-shaped in this case.

I’ve only played the Hammond bass mpcs, but I seem to remember they had an almost cylindrical first part of the interior, and then more cup-shaped towards the bottom, and then a funnel shape into the throat.

I really liked the Hammond 20 series, but started having difficulty with fronts and ends of notes. I think it had more to do with the very round rim and very large throats.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 4:41 pm I’ve only played the Hammond bass mpcs, but I seem to remember they had an almost cylindrical first part of the interior, and then more cup-shaped towards the bottom, and then a funnel shape into the throat.

I really liked the Hammond 20 series, but started having difficulty with fronts and ends of notes. I think it had more to do with the very round rim and very large throats.

A lot of the Hammond mouthpiece cups are described as having both cup and conical aspects to them, trying to get the best of both worlds. They do have a pretty wide open back bore though, which definitely does require me to be more conscious of how much air I am putting through the horn.

The King M21/M31 seem to have a V-shape cup. They sound pretty different from Bach mouthpieces imho. My olds 10 also is somewhat, but to me it looks like an in-between of bowl and v-shape.

It's interesting that cup shape can have a pretty big difference in the sound, but a lot of manufacturers don't give much information on cup shape, compared to the other parts of the mouthpiece. Do most manufacturers use a single cup general cup shape for all of their pieces? I suppose cup shape is not something easily measured, and describing it may confuse more than educate.

This might be of interest:

https://www.marcinkiewicz.com/mouthpiece-anatomy/

So far I've only seen pictures of the outside of mouthpieces here. The outside doesn't tell you what's inside. Please saw your mouthpieces in half before posting another picture of them here so we can see what shape the cup is.

Case in point, the 5CL looks like a perfect cone on the outside, but it's a textbook C shaped cup on the inside. I sawed mine in half but now it only plays 50% of the notes.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 4:30 pm ... but now it only plays 50% of the notes.

Only the high notes, I presume?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 4:38 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 4:30 pm ... but now it only plays 50% of the notes.

Only the high notes, I presume?

Well, that's only if I put it on my upper lip. Rotate it 180° to the bottom lip and it's the opposite.

My old 1940s Cleveland King tenor bone came with a V shaped interior mouthpiece in the case when I bought the used horn, I rarely use but it does give the horn very much a French horn sound Usually use the Bach 12SC for good high and low sounds in the church band. For the songs a French horn sounds better, I pull out my French horn and play a true horn sound…not that the bone is too far off.

Here is the mouthpiece I play (in green, white is my tweaked design)-- what do you think, cup or V?

Seems to be a little more V-shaped than most, but a hybrid none-the-less. We long ago determined that a pure V or a pure bowl had problems. The great makers settled on a compromise.

I notice that you narrowed the rim width. That can enhance flexibility.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 3:15 pm Seems to be a little more V-shaped than most, but a hybrid none-the-less. We long ago determined that a pure V or a pure bowl had problems. The great makers settled on a compromise.

I notice that you narrowed the rim width. That can enhance flexibility.

Slightly narrower cup, and a less steep entrance into the cup (higher alpha angle), and yes, narrower more rounded rim. We'll see how it goes.