Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:27 am
by ebrenner
Players like Tommy Dorsey, Dick Nash, Urbie Green, Bill Watrous, Murry McEachern, Joe Howard, Buddy Morrow etc. have a beautiful slide vibrato. In your opinion, which make of trombone or combination of materials has worked best for you in producing a pleasing slide vibrato? Of the horns I currently have, my Conn 88H, believe it or not, seems to have the easiest vibrato with the slide...even easier than my King 2b. No doubt the player is the most important aspect of a good vibrato, but the horn itself must have something to do with it. Discuss...
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:35 am
by Elow
Is it common to do slide vibrato? I was taught vibrato on euphonium and transferred that over to trombone, have i been doing something wrong?
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:49 am
by SlideCrook
I don’t think it matters on the specific brand. I think it matters on the specific slide, and it’s weight, lubricity, and general cleanliness and straightness, or whatever leads it to being a “good” slide. I’ve had some Conn 88Hs with some trash slide vibrato, but feel that some small bore horns with lightweight slides and in great condition (closet queen “ballad” horns) that I couldn’t ask for better slide vibrato, and it was me, the trombone-to-chair gasket, that was the limiting factor. I have a Martin Urbie Green that has great slide vibrato even out in 6th/7th.
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:23 pm
by BGuttman
Elow wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:35 am
Is it common to do slide vibrato? I was taught vibrato on euphonium and transferred that over to trombone, have i been doing something wrong?
Slide vibrato is one of the only things you can do on a trombone that you can't do on any valved instrument.
You can get a wider vibrato using the slide than any other technique.
Slide vibrato is closer to how string instruments do vibrato (rocking the finger on a string, resulting in change of length).
Slide vibrato in 1st position can be a problem unless you tune the instrument sharp and play 1st position out a little.
But not everybody uses/used slide vibrato. Arthur Pryor used jaw vibrato.
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:29 pm
by Finetales
Dave Steinmeyer has the wildest slide vibrato I've ever seen. It's like three full positions! But it sounds incredible, as does everything about his playing.
The player's approach and right hand slide grip, as well as the slide's weight/lubricity as already mentioned, seem to be what matter for slide vibrato. I bet carbon slides do awesome slide vibrato.
Slide vibrato, jaw vibrato, and diaphragm vibrato all sound different and it's good to know them all. (Maybe not diaphragm vibrato so much, but I'm glad I can do it at least.) There's a fourth kind on trumpet (physically moving the horn back and forth with your right hand - when trumpet players wiggle their hand horizontally over the valves it's not just for show!), but it's not really practical on trombone. Maybe valve trombone?
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:40 pm
by Reedman1
Finetales wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 12:29 pm
Dave Steinmeyer has the wildest slide vibrato I've ever seen. It's like three full positions! But it sounds incredible, as does everything about his playing.
The player's approach and right hand slide grip, as well as the slide's weight/lubricity as already mentioned, seem to be what matter for slide vibrato. I bet carbon slides do awesome slide vibrato.
Slide vibrato, jaw vibrato, and diaphragm vibrato all sound different and it's good to know them all. (Maybe not diaphragm vibrato so much, but I'm glad I can do it at least.) There's a fourth kind on trumpet (physically moving the horn back and forth with your right hand - when trumpet players wiggle their hand horizontally over the valves it's not just for show!), but it's not really practical on trombone. Maybe valve trombone?
I think on valve trombone, the trumpet vibrato could cause an injury - if not to your mouth, probably to one or both wrists.
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 2:56 pm
by SlideCrook
In some wild and aggressive solos of mine from yore, I’ve used a “shake” of my face, up and down, to match the lead trumpet player’s “shake”. While it may not be a true vibrato, and more of a rapid “kiss” of the partials above and below, but more grit and stank than a lip trill, it carried a lot of musical energy and was a useful extended technique, especially in some Gordon Goodwin contexts.
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 3:14 pm
by Posaunus
Elow wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:35 am
Is it common to do slide vibrato? I was taught vibrato on euphonium and transferred that over to trombone, have i been doing something wrong?
Yes it is common to use slide vibrato in many settings - jazz, big band, salsa, ...
Jaw vibrato is also acceptable, especially in more "clsssical" settings.
Neither one is wrong.
To see how the greats have used slide vibrato, check out YouTube videos of Bill Watrous, Dick Nash, Dave Steinmeyer, Tommy Dorsey, ... Feel free to lose yourself in the YouTube swamp - it's fun!
Also lots of YouTube "lessons" on slide vibrato. Jump in and learn!
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 3:21 pm
by imsevimse
- A light weight slide makes the slide vibrato easier.
- To tune sharp makes slide vibrato possible in first position.
- Slide vibrato can be done with either a loose wrist (Bill Watrous, Tommy Dorsey) or with the whole arm (Zi Sentner)
- slide vibrato can be all the time and fast as Tommy Dorsey did it or after a sustained note and slow as Dick Nash or Bill Watrous
- Slidevibrato can be small or wide
- Slide vibrato can be done from pitch; going below pitch and back (as I learned) or going above and below the pitch, or between pitch to above pitch.
Slide vibrato is a personal choice
/Tom
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:06 pm
by TheSheriff
..
You have a slide in your hand. Use it. It is a personal thing. Is it pretty? Does it sound good? Mine changes depending on the style of music I am playing. I also use jaw and diaphragm. Make music.
..
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:18 pm
by dukesboneman
Phil Wilson has the coolest slide vibrato
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:16 pm
by Doug Elliott
Regardless of how you do vibrato, I recommend recording yourself and checking it out as a listener. In my experience it never sounds quite like what I thought I was doing.
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:34 pm
by timbone
When I was growing up I took lessons from an older freelance guy in nyc and he had what we called “coffee shop vibrato” which was about 2 1/2 feet wide at some points- and he was really fast! Stylistically it is very important to have in your bag (well maybe not that wide) but it is certainly indicative of the style and the trombone ( other than bowed instruments) are able to do that. Once I had a violin player take some lessons and she immediately took to the slide with her bow arm- and made it work! And with the bell section on the side where the body of their instrument sits- its a perfect match!
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:03 am
by Vegasbound
It is the player, not the materials the horn is made from that makes for good slide vibrato, it should be practiced and used when the music calls for it...... And it has changed over the decades
The late Bill Tole had great slide vib, and if your being TD for the night watch Buddy Morrow leaving the TDO .
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:06 am
by afugate
dukesboneman wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:18 pm
Phil Wilson has the coolest slide vibrato
Oh, that was good!
--Andy in OKC
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:29 am
by timothy42b
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:16 pm
Regardless of how you do vibrato, I recommend recording yourself and checking it out as a listener. In my experience it never sounds quite like what I thought I was doing.
Yup. Just tried that this week and deleted it immediately. Sounded like a bad stretched cassette tape instead of a cello.
Vocalistic pieces feel like they need it, to me.
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:16 pm
Regardless of how you do vibrato, I recommend recording yourself and checking it out as a listener. In my experience it never sounds quite like what I thought I was doing.
Yup. Just tried that this week and deleted it immediately. Sounded like a bad stretched cassette tape instead of a cello.
Vocalistic pieces feel like they need it, to me.
I played a bit of a hymn with what I thought was an average slide vibrato, into the phone sitting on my stand.
I've wondered a bit whether the microphone being on front or back and shielded on one side matters, but I digress. Maybe one of you knows.
It was much wider and slower than I'd thought I played, and it just sounded bad.
So I repeated without vibrato, only to find there's some on here, and to my ears it's not bad sounding but could be used quite a bit more.
At any rate, I share this because if plastic doesn't harm slide vibrato then surely materials can't make much difference.
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:21 pm
by baileyman
Well, it cannot be Bach 9 12 16 because Fontana complained when he tried to personalize slide vibrato it came out sounding like--slide vibrato.
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:33 pm
by BGuttman
baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:21 pm
Well, it cannot be Bach 9 12 16 because Fontana complained when he tried to personalize slide vibrato it came out sounding like--slide vibrato.
Then how about a Bach 6?
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:39 pm
by harrisonreed
Im very confused by this topic. If slide vibrato is a mechanical effect, wouldn't the only thing that matters be the slide action?
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:31 pm
by BGuttman
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:39 pm
Im very confused by this topic. If slide vibrato is a mechanical effect, wouldn't the only thing that matters be the slide action?
Yay, Sherlock!
(Of course you are right.)
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:39 pm
Im very confused by this topic. If slide vibrato is a mechanical effect, wouldn't the only thing that matters be the slide action?
Yay, Sherlock!
(Of course you are right.)
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:48 pm
by ebrenner
I posed the question because I have noticed that the quality of the vibrato and the ease of producing it varies among my different horns. Factors include make of horn, bore size, slide and bell materials, etc. To me, for example, my slide vibrato sounds better when I use a heavier bronze slide than a lightweight nickel silver slide. Maybe someone with an engineering or science background could explain why this is the case. Then again, maybe trombonists with a beautiful slide vibrato, like those in my initial post, would sound the same on any horn. Any thoughts?
Re: Which brand of horn or combination of materials produce the best slide vibrato?
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:50 am
by bigbandbone
Listen and watch Carol Jarvis playing a ballad. Beautiful vibrato and technique. Mostly wrist action. Bell stays perfectly still, just the slide moves, nothing else. Vibrato starts wide and slow then progressively narrows and speeds up.
I've been playing along with her on bass bone an octave lower and trying to match her technique.
