TromboneChat

Is this a normal trigger mechanism? I would think not but i don’t know. Kind of like a king style? But not a king... or string. This poor trombone also doesn’t have an outer slide.

That is not a normal 36 trigger. Normally the pivot is on the bell brace. Looks like somebody wanted it moved for ergonomic reasons. Note that it isn't King style either since a King lever rotates around a vertical axis, not a horizontal axis like a Bach.

Very weird!

I have a 1962 Mount Vernon 36B that has the same trigger set-up.
I`m thinking (if and when the gigs start up again) of getting it moved
I have an Instrument Innovations Axe Handle on the horn and that makes it a little more comfortable.

The triggers on the old New York and Mt. Vernon Bachs were made that way. I always found it interesting how similar those triggers were to the Elkhart Conn triggers....Conn was the dominant brand in the 1950s and 1960s and was Bach's biggest competition. Another interesting point is that I have never seen a New York, Mt. Vernon or Elkhart Bach with a string rotor mechanism even though string rotors were used on nearly every other brand. I wonder if Vincent Bach refused to put string rotor mechanisms on his trombones just like he refused to install water keys on the third valves of trumpets. Apparently Vincent was stubborn about very specific things on his instruments!

I'm speculating that this particular trombone was assembled from multiple-era parts. I'm not quite sure when in the 1960s switched over to the triggers that are mounted on the bell brace. I always assumed that the switch was done before Bach operations were moved to Elkhart, IN because I have never seen a Corporation Bach with the trigger mounted to the slide receiver before. Can you let us know what the serial number on that inner slide is? Then again, the slide could be from a completely different instrument as well!

I'd be happy to take it off your hands.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:54 pm I'd be happy to take it off your hands.

It’s on ebay for $1100. A bit expensive for a banged up corp without an outer slide i think but i’m not sure

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:49 pm I wonder if Vincent Bach refused to put string rotor mechanisms on his trombones just like he refused to install water keys on the third valves of trumpets. Apparently Vincent was stubborn about very specific things on his instruments!

That’s weird, my old director had a bach valve trombone and i had to play it for jazz band and i’m pretty sure it had a spit valve.

With multiple horns from the New York and Mount Vernon eras having this configuration they are obviously not parts from different eras

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:17 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:54 pm I'd be happy to take it off your hands.

It’s on ebay for $1100. A bit expensive for a banged up corp without an outer slide i think but i’m not sure

By the look of that picture, about $900 too much.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:17 pm It’s on ebay for $1100. A bit expensive for a banged up corp without an outer slide i think but i’m not sure

Bach 36 can be a nice trombone. This one – not so much.

A perfectly decent used Bach 36 w F-attachment will often sell for less than $1,000 – including case, mouthpiece – and outer slide!

Why does this one attract you? You should be more discriminating about your shopping. I strongly suggest buying from a trustworthy TromboneChat member or one of the honest, ethical dealers recently recommended on TC, so you won't waste your money / regret your purchase.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:48 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:17 pm It’s on ebay for $1100. A bit expensive for a banged up corp without an outer slide i think but i’m not sure

Bach 36 can be a nice trombone. This one – not so much.

A perfectly decent used Bach 36 w F-attachment will often sell for less than $1,000 – including case, mouthpiece – and outer slide!

Why does this one attract you? You should be more discriminating about your shopping. I strongly suggest buying from a trustworthy TromboneChat member or one of the honest, ethical dealers recently recommended on TC, so you won't waste your money / regret your purchase.

I don’t really like medium bore horns very much. I’ve never played a 36 but i don’t think i would like it. I played a couple medium bores at an all state convention and i just never really liked them. I’m sure with the right player they can be great, but for me it just didn’t do what i wanted. I just saw this on ebay and thought it looked weird.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:17 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:54 pm I'd be happy to take it off your hands.

It’s on ebay for $1100. A bit expensive for a banged up corp without an outer slide i think but i’m not sure

Oh, no. Not for that much. I think a lot of the bells they made during that era are really great. But $1000 for an incomplete trombone that's dented up is too much.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:03 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:48 pm

Bach 36 can be a nice trombone. This one – not so much.

A perfectly decent used Bach 36 w F-attachment will often sell for less than $1,000 – including case, mouthpiece – and outer slide!

Why does this one attract you? You should be more discriminating about your shopping. I strongly suggest buying from a trustworthy TromboneChat member or one of the honest, ethical dealers recently recommended on TC, so you won't waste your money / regret your purchase.

I don’t really like medium bore horns very much. I’ve never played a 36 but i don’t think i would like it. I played a couple medium bores at an all state convention and i just never really liked them. I’m sure with the right player they can be great, but for me it just didn’t do what i wanted. I just saw this on ebay and thought it looked weird.

You probably haven't tried the right medium bore horn. Good ones are out there. Like the 79H. Or the 3B+

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:28 pm You probably haven't tried the right medium bore horn. Good ones are out there. Like the 79H. Or the 3B+

Who knows, i still have decades to go.

Hey everyone......there's more evidence in that picture than I first noticed. Take a look at the spacer between the gooseneck and F-attachment tubing. I have only seen that on New York and Mt. Vernon horns. Has anyone ever seen that spacer part on an Elkhart Bach?

Anyway, it could be that the only Corporation-era thing on this horn is the bell. I took a look at this horn on the Ebay website and there is no serial # listed or and no serial # completely shown in a photo. That's a shame, because that would give us much more information.

For some, a New York or Mt. Vernon Bach, even without an original bell or an original outer slide has value. I don't know about the 36s, but many of the 42s had different valves back then.....some of the valves were made for Bach by Bernie Marston and those valves are very fine. The Marston valves were larger and played more open than the modern Bach rotary valves.

Let's not totally write this horn off. New York and Mt. Vernon parts can certainly have value with collectors and people looking to assemble custom horns. I'm not saying that this horn is necessarily worth $1000, but it could have some mighty fine components on it that are worth something to the right person.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:22 pm That’s weird, my old director had a bach valve trombone and i had to play it for jazz band and i’m pretty sure it had a spit valve.

Vincent Bach refused to put water keys on third valves of trumpets, not valve trombones.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:20 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:22 pm That’s weird, my old director had a bach valve trombone and i had to play it for jazz band and i’m pretty sure it had a spit valve.

Vincent Bach refused to put water keys on third valves of trumpets, not valve trombones.

Oh i guess i read the original post wrong

That is valve lever is normal for a very early Elkhart instrument. It isn't weird in any way. They were the same parts as used in NY and Mt Vernon.

Thanks Matt! I'm wondering.....have your seen that gooseneck to F-attachment "spacer" on any Elkharts? Sorry, but I don't really know what to call it....it's not quite a flange.

I'm thinking there must have been a very limited number of "Elkhart" trombones with that trigger configuration. I have a buddy who has a Bach 50 that is early Elkhart....all original equipment. I think his horn is about a 8300 serial number. His F-lever is the modern style that is mounted to the bell brace.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:30 am That is valve lever is normal for a very early Elkhart instrument. It isn't weird in any way. They were the same parts as used in NY and Mt Vernon.

My early Elkhart 50B came with that lever. The serial number of mine is in the low 9000s, and I think you see Mt Vernons with serial numbers in that range as well. There was definitely crossover, as parts from MV were likely transported to Elkhart for assembly. My best guess is that my handslide and tuning slide were built in Mt Vernon, and the rest of the bell section was assembled in Elkhart, where the bell was spun and stamped.

I personally like the Ball & Socket set-up.
If lubed properly it`s really quiet and smooth

As to the tubing wrap, it's the normal Bach closed wrap but from an angle you're not used to seeing.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:22 pm

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:49 pm I wonder if Vincent Bach refused to put string rotor mechanisms on his trombones just like he refused to install water keys on the third valves of trumpets. Apparently Vincent was stubborn about very specific things on his instruments!

That’s weird, my old director had a bach valve trombone and i had to play it for jazz band and i’m pretty sure it had a spit valve.

It's not weird. Two entirely different instruments.

Hey Gabe,

Does your 50B have that "spacer" between the gooseneck and the F-attachment tubing?

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:25 pm Hey Gabe,

Does your 50B have that "spacer" between the gooseneck and the F-attachment tubing?

Not answering for Gabe, but every horn with this style lever that I have seen also has that gooseneck brace. I haven't seen any that were mismatched, though the number of horns where that is a possibility are probably a very small number.

Cheers,
Andy

Just got the serial number from my friend’s Bach 50, it is 91xx. Sorry that I got it wrong before. Again, his has the newer style rotor (mounted on the bell brace) and no spacer on the gooseneck. It looks like somewhere in the low 9000s was the transition.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:01 am Just got the serial number from my friend’s Bach 50, it is 91xx. Sorry that I got it wrong before. Again, his has the newer style rotor (mounted on the bell brace) and no spacer on the gooseneck. It looks like somewhere in the low 9000s was the transition.

I add this note any time this area comes up; every thing is a crapshoot on Bach horns after the sale but before the final transition to Elkhart... The last shop card is ~6300, and ~10000 is pretty solidly Elkhart complete. Lots of mixed stuff going both directions. From 1st person accounts, I would not even trust in the basic concept that serial # A was started before A +1000 in that time period. Weird stuff (on the minor details, mind you, the parts still interchange well with their peers both earlier and newer).

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks Andy! Sounds like Bach's transition to Elkhart was similar to Conn's transition to Abilene, TX. There are some Abilene horns out there, made form Elkhart parts, that are outstanding instruments.

My 50B sat around Giardinelli for a while then was sent back for a second valve. There was a solder mark on the receiver like your picture where the original lever was and a lever like that in the case. I bought it in the 70's but the horn was in stock for years they said.
I just loved the sound.

Under thumb trigger WITHOUT spacer flange:

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15690

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:33 pm Under thumb trigger WITHOUT spacer flange:

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15690

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks Andy!
Interesting that that horn does not have a serial number either.

Dusting off this old thread for those who keep track of such details. I learn something new every day.

My 36B, s/n 9182, is the same configuration. Also has a Marston valve.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 80#p152480

Ps: I’m still looking for a replacement trigger lever. If anyone can help with that, I’d appreciate it.

Estraven wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:55 am Dusting off this old thread for those who keep track of such details. I learn something new every day.

My 36B, s/n 9182, is the same configuration. Also has a Marston valve.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 80#p152480

Ps: I’m still looking for a replacement trigger lever. If anyone can help with that, I’d appreciate it.

I’ve been wondering, how does one identify a Marston valve for sure? Are all Bach valves with a ring engraved near the edge of the valve cap Marston valves (as opposed to the later ones, where the valve cap surface is smooth)? I think I may have one on my 42 because it does have this ring on the valve cap, but I can’t go by the age of the horn because the valve was not original to it.

I’ve heard that they are also a little larger than most Bach valves…it seems like it looks larger than the one I had in college 20 years ago, but now I don’t have another 42B around here to compare it to!

Estraven wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:55 am Dusting off this old thread for those who keep track of such details. I learn something new every day.

My 36B, s/n 9182, is the same configuration. Also has a Marston valve.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 80#p152480

Ps: I’m still looking for a replacement trigger lever. If anyone can help with that, I’d appreciate it.

There's one that has been on eBay for a while, they want some bucks for it, but if you want an original, it would be the way to go.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264670696282

Cheers,
Andy

The trigger lever reminds me of the one on my Holton 682 (large bore tenor, flat wrap attachment).

Sometimes you can make it more comfortable by using one of the slip-on pen grips. The rod may be a bit small for the grip, so you may need to bulk it out with some tape. I like the ones that are triangular in cross section; you put one of the faces where you would press and the point goes away from your thumb.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:14 am

Estraven wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:55 am Dusting off this old thread for those who keep track of such details. I learn something new every day.

My 36B, s/n 9182, is the same configuration. Also has a Marston valve.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 80#p152480

Ps: I’m still looking for a replacement trigger lever. If anyone can help with that, I’d appreciate it.

There's one that has been on eBay for a while, they want some bucks for it, but if you want an original, it would be the way to go.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264670696282


Cheers,
Andy

Thanks for the lead.