TromboneChat

I've found the Bach 6.5a to be a great all around mouthpiece for small to medium bore horns....I've played 6.5al pieces over the years but have always struggled with a focus and edge to the sound, particularly in the upper register, and my air just seems to go.. The tighter throat and backbore make all the difference on the 6.5a.

Beside the Bach 6.5a are there many comparable or modern variation pieces out there from different manufacturers?I also assume there'd be some Mt Vernon versions around but I've yet to see one pop up on eBay or the classifieds so they must be rare.

Gareth

I think the Clarke S is the progenitor of Bach's 6.5A. And someone makes either a copy of it or a take on it at the least. Which I would find the most interesting to try.

On a side note, it would seem that Bach may agree with your assessment of the 6 1/2 A, at least on the large shank side; they have been including the 6 1/2A with all of their 42s for a while.  Now, knowing how things go with large manufacturers they may just have a lot of these in stock but they do seem to match up with the 42 quite nicely...

I've been using the Warburton 6T for about 6 years as my daily worker on a .525. I really like it- it's tight but I find the extra mass lets it put out a lot more sound than you'd expect.

Quote from: conn88plyr on Aug 12, 2017, 09:42PM... Bach may agree with your assessment of the 6 1/2 A, at least on the large shank side; they have been including the 6 1/2A with all of their 42s for a while. 

Unfortunately, due to the disparities of Bach's mouthpiece numbering system, the large-shank 6½A does not resemble the small-shank 6½A.  ALL the 6½ size mouthpieces (purportedly) share a similar cup size and shape - but it's the throat and backbore where things differ. 

All 6½AL mouthpieces (small- AND large-shank) have a relatively large 6.63mm (0.261") throat and Bach's #420 backbore. 

The small-shank 6½A has a SMALLER  5.85mm (0.230") throat and standard tenor trombone backbore, whereas the large-shank 6½A has a LARGER  (bass-trombone-like) 7.00mm throat and #429 backbore. 

Same numbers but vastly different products!   

Some players find the small-shank 6½A to be a good match to a Bach 36 / 36B trombones (though I prefer a 6½AL).  Apparently Bach thinks the large-shank 6½A may be well-suited to the Bach 42 series.

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Aug 12, 2017, 06:40PMI think the Clarke S is the progenitor of Bach's 6.5A. And someone makes either a copy of it or a take on it at the least. Which I would find the most interesting to try.
Doesn't Noah sell a Bob Reeves piece based off of the Clarke pieces?

It may be him! I forgot and I did t feel like Googleing 

Quote from: mr.deacon on Aug 12, 2017, 11:02PMDoesn't Noah sell a Bob Reeves piece based off of the Clarke pieces?

Yes BrassArk make the Clarke 6.5 in collaboration with Bob Reeves which is "Based on the original 6.5AL mouthpiece developed in the 1930s".....I have one of these and while it's the best sounding and easiest to play 6.5al I've played, it still feels like hard work at times compared to a 6.5a on my Edwards .525 bore.

Quote from: mbarbier on Aug 12, 2017, 10:12PMI've been using the Warburton 6T for about 6 years as my daily worker on a .525. I really like it- it's tight but I find the extra mass lets it put out a lot more sound than you'd expect.

I just found and old thread on the 6T and it mentions that they make it with 2 different throats, an 11c-ish size and a more standard 6.5AL size throat. I'm assuming from your comments you play the tighter throat....have you tried the more open throat to compare? Any comments on the mellowness/brightness of the sound?

Quote from: bigeg on Aug 12, 2017, 11:31PMYes BrassArk make the Clarke 6.5 in collaboration with Bob Reeves which is "Based on the original 6.5AL mouthpiece developed in the 1930s".....I have one of these and while it's the best sounding and easiest to play 6.5al I've played, it still feels like hard work at times compared to a 6.5a on my Edwards .525 bore.

I believe that my NY Clarke S was one of the m'pces they used at Brass Ark to develop their version. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, BrassArk guys.) I concur w/bigeg. The Clarke S is actually more open than most 6.5ALs. A great m'pce, but so are many 6.5As. I am playing a 6.5A now...a Mt. Vernon...on my .508 Shires. I played them in the past on other .508 horns with very good results compared to 6.5ALs as far as general business, American idioms trombone playing is concerned. They are a little brighter sounding than 6.5ALs, a little easier in the high range and still very good in the lower ranges.

And...sadly...yes, the large shank 6.5A is actually more open blowing and larger than the large shank 6.5AL. I have heard different justifications for why this happened, but it sounds to me like some bean counter simply didn't know his ass from his elbow, and that error calcified in the vast corporate reaches of UMI or whatever other company now owns the Bach/King/Conn triumvirate.

So it goes.

Later...

S.

Quote from: sabutin on Aug 13, 2017, 12:00AMI believe that my NY Clarke S was one of the m'pces they used at Brass Ark to develop their version. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, BrassArk guys.) I concur w/bigeg. The Clarke S is actually more open than most 6.5ALs. A great m'pce, but so are many 6.5As. I am playing a 6.5A now...a Mt. Vernon...on my .508 Shires. I played them in the past on other .508 horns with very good results compared to 6.5ALs as far as general business, American idioms trombone playing is concerned. They are a little brighter sounding than 6.5ALs, a little easier in the high range and still very good in the lower ranges.

And...sadly...yes, the large shank 6.5A is actually more open blowing and larger than the large shank 6.5AL. I have heard different justifications for why this happened, but it sounds to me like some bean counter simply didn't know his ass from his elbow, and that error calcified in the vast corporate reaches of UMI or whatever other company now owns the Bach/King/Conn triumvirate.

So it goes.

Later...

S.

Thanks for chiming in Sam 

In your mouthpiece travels have you come across another piece that compares to or is a copy of a good Bach 6.5a? Or is the best bet to try and find a a certain era/Mt. Vernon  Bach? Mine seems good but it's the only one I've tried so far.

The only other piece I've played that's sort of similar is a Yamaha Nils Langdren, but it's got quite a narrow rim and I think is sort of like a Bach 6 3/4c, so doesn't really feel or play much like the 6.5a.

Quote from: bigeg on Aug 13, 2017, 03:05AMThanks for chiming in Sam 

In your mouthpiece travels have you come across another piece that compares to or is a copy of a good Bach 6.5a? Or is the best bet to try and find a a certain era/Mt. Vernon  Bach? Mine seems good but it's the only one I've tried so far.

The only other piece I've played that's sort of similar is a Yamaha Nils Langdren, but it's got quite a narrow rim and I think is sort of like a Bach 6 3/4c, so doesn't really feel or play much like the 6.5a.

Right on the money about the Nils Yamaha.

And...to paraphrase something that Blast has said many times here in different ways...with the exceptions of two Larry Minick-related m'pces (An original Minick that I call "an 11C/7C on steroids", a Horn Guys' Jeff Reynold L that is a copy of Jeff Reynolds' favorite bass m'pce and one wonderful Doug Elliott 5G-ish m'pce that I use on my .525) I have never found a non-Mt. Vernon or non-NY Bach m'pce that was overall better better than the best of the many Mt.Vernon/NY Bachs that I have collected over the years. And that's not for lack of trying with rigorous tests both in performance and blindfold testing on many different horns. Not only do the older Bachs eventually win every time, they win against other Mt. Vernon/NY Bachs that I have tried with the same nomenclature. And...when really good trombonists play the winners, they are almost always knocked out by those m'pces.

Hooray for non-mechanical equipment making!!!

Human variance wins in the end!!!

AI-designed m'pces for AI-influenced brass players!!!

And hooray twice for the incredibly deep NYC brass scene in the '30s through the '60s that allowed Vincent Bach to test and retest his approaches to all the equipment that he made with input from countless masters of the various instruments.

Now...it is a given that I am an inheritor of some of that scene. I originally studied with John Gramm (who was heavily influenced by Gordon Pulis and gave me a Mt. Vernon 6.5AL at about 14 years of age that I used for at least a decade as my only m'pce on my only horn(s)), later with Jack Nowinski (who was a walking encyclopedia of NYC trombonists and equipment); I hung out at John (Peppy) Pettinato's repair shop on midtown Broadway perhaps more than I should have and I was blessed with playing with NYC masters galore from that era as a young pro. So it really isn't that surprising that my tastes run to what I have heard and played during my life.

But...there is something about those m'pces...

Maybe it's that they are a great compromise of all of the disparate elements that make a m'pce "good." The Goldilocks mean...not too much or too little of any part of what a "good" m'pce may be.

Juuusst right.

Later...

S.

P.S. Your results may vary...

I know this sounds strange, but the Shires 11C feels very similar to a 6.5A, only a bit smaller in the cup. I have three of them - One original (made in Taiwan, from what I understand), and two new ones made by Pickett Brass, one of which I plan to have opened up a little bit. 

Quote from: bigeg on Aug 13, 2017, 03:05AMIn your mouthpiece travels have you come across another piece that compares to or is a copy of a good Bach 6.5a? Or is the best bet to try and find a a certain era/Mt. Vernon Bach?
I have a piece in my collection (that I think came with a trombone I purchased?) engraved "Getzen Deluxe M".  I believe that it was manufactured in the ~1950's/early 1960's.  It's similar to a Getzen 6½AL (and therefore a Bach 6½AL) but with a smaller 5.85mm/0.230" throat - in other words the same nominal dimensions as a Bach 6½A !   Plays similarly, too. 

I also have an old Marcinkiewicz 11, which has a nominal 25.40mm/1.00" cup diameter and a 5.94mm/0.234" throat.  Pretty similar dimensions, but it plays a bit differently than a 6½A.

Interestingly, Schilke and Yamaha do not seem to have a comparably-sized mouthpiece in their armamentaria. 

Quote from: Posaunus on Aug 13, 2017, 05:33PM
---snip---

Interestingly, Schilke and Yamaha do not seem to have a comparably-sized mouthpiece in their armamentaria.
Well...that kinda makes sense.

I mean ...there is a very fine line between the classic 6.5AL small bore m'pce and the 6.5A. On one side lay 6.75Cs, 7Cs, 11Cs, etc. Easier to play high than a 6.5A, not quite as big or rich a sound but really much less well-responding in the 2nd and even 3rd partials. On the other side? 5-ish m'pces that are really hard to play for extended periods of time as a lead m'pce in Pan-American idioms but work really well in the lower ranges.

Hmmmm...

Gotta be able to do it all? Using one horn and one m'pce?

Don't want to get caught out in the higher or lower ranges on a given gig? (As happened to me several times in both directions using 6.5ALs and/or 11Cs before I started using specific equipment for specific gigs.)

Hmmmmmmmm...

The search continues.

Bet on it.

Later...

S.

Schilke does make the 47B, which is similar to a flat rim 6 1/2 size with half the cup depth. Just screwy enough in all respects so that if it appeals to you then 6 wrongs might make a right for you.

I've noticed that mouthpiece express list the following as small shank mouthpieces, but I've never any seen them discussed on TTF.
- Bach 5
- Bach 5G
- Bach 4
- Bach 4C
- Bach 3

I'm curious how any of them would work on a King 3B+ (0.525 bore). I'm guessing there's a point past which the mouthpiece is too big for the horn and starts screwing up the tuning and partials.

Any experience of these ?

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Aug 13, 2017, 07:00PMSchilke does make the 47B, which is similar to a flat rim 6 1/2 size with half the cup depth. Just screwy enough in all respects so that if it appeals to you then 6 wrongs might make a right for you.

I have a Schilke 47B, which I use for lead-playing on a small-bore (0.508") trombone.  I really like it, but it's nothing like a Bach 6½A (smaller, different shape cup).  The 6½A works better for me on a larger bore (0.525") when I'm not playing all high range. 

Quote from: DaveBb on Aug 13, 2017, 07:07PMI've noticed that mouthpiece express list the following as small shank mouthpieces, but I've never any seen them discussed on TTF.
- Bach 5
- Bach 5G
- Bach 4
- Bach 4C
- Bach 3

I'm curious how any of them would work on a King 3B+ (0.525 bore). I'm guessing there's a point past which the mouthpiece is too big for the horn and starts screwing up the tuning and partials.

Any experience of these ?

Bach 5, 4, and 3 are all deep mouthpieces designed for Baritone Horns.

I use a 4C as a jazz mouthpiece with my Martin Imperial, have used it on a King 2B, and on a Holton Stratodyne.  Even used it on my Bach 36C (with F) in Jazz Band on lead.

Another one to consider is the Laskey 54M.  It's a little more open than a 6 1/2A, but not as open as the 6 1/2AL.  I'd say it splits the difference. 

Quote from: BGuttman on Aug 13, 2017, 08:50PMBach 5, 4, and 3 are all deep mouthpieces designed for Baritone Horns.

I have a small-shank Bach 3 and Bach 5.  Neither is called out in the Bach catalog as Baritone mouthpieces.  I find them suitable, but not optimal, for trombone.  Use the Bach 3 when you should have brought a large-bore trombone, but are stuck with only your small-bore!  (Or use a Denis Wick 4BS, which is even better for that purpose.  ) 

I don't think a Bach 3 would be a good match for a .525" bore horn. I used one for a while on a .500"/.525" dual bore. Liked the way it felt rim- & depth-wise, but I felt a little restricted, particularly in the lower register. Eventually I picked up a Curry 3M, which has a somewhat larger throat and backbore. It's still my go-to for that size horn.

Quote from: bigeg on Aug 12, 2017, 11:50PMI just found and old thread on the 6T and it mentions that they make it with 2 different throats, an 11c-ish size and a more standard 6.5AL size throat. I'm assuming from your comments you play the tighter throat....have you tried the more open throat to compare? Any comments on the mellowness/brightness of the sound?

I didn't realize they made a larger option...I guess I've got some buying to do...

I assume I have the smaller one as I just ordered what the main listing on the site. It definitely looks bigger than their 11T that I've got, but smaller than the other 6.5 sized pieces I've got.

It tends towards a slightly brighter and more intense sound, but it's pretty flexible depending on the blow. When I give my Bach 6.5 a try it sounds pretty dull to my ear compared to the Warburton. So it's on the bright side, but it can get bent the other way. I assume it's because of the mass, but I find that it holds up a lot better at louder dynamics than my other options.

It does have some limitations in the low range- I find the valve register works quite well at p and below and really opens up F and up. It takes some....convincing in the mp/mf range.

I have all of those, minus the no-letter 5.

I used the small shank 5G and 5GS (and a 5GB, for that matter) for symphony and concert band, respectively, before I got the DE setup I use now. I never noticed a difference between the small and large shank versions of these.

The 4 and 3 I bought on a whim, and while they fit my face better, I never meshed with them much and didn't use them more than a handful of times. I recently bought another 4 with an opened up throat, which could be quite interesting to try....once I have some time to focus on it.

I tried the 4C for a long while but prefer my similarly-sized DE setup. If I'm remembering right, the rim is pretty round?

lastly, I bought an interesting mouthpiece from a forum member here, a Mt Vernon 3G that had been turned in a lathe to match a small shank taper. I'm sure the resale value was killed by doing this, but it actually plays pretty well. I use it as a "oh crap gotta fake bass trombone on the 525" mouthpiece.

not sure how helpful that is....I stopped trying lots of mouthpieces once I got the DE piece (and realized my mouthpieces aren't hindering me so much as I am).

I remember reading somewhere here that the reason the large and small shank 6.5As are different is because they use the standard throat diameter for the shank size, while the 6.5AL and 6.5AM use specific throats regardless of shank. That's how you end up with small shank throat diameter trend of 6.5A < 6.5AM < 6.5AL, and then large shank 6.5AM < 6.5AL < 6.5A

Quote from: DaveAshley on Aug 13, 2017, 07:36AMI know this sounds strange, but the Shires 11C feels very similar to a 6.5A, only a bit smaller in the cup. I have three of them - One original (made in Taiwan, from what I understand), and two new ones made by Pickett Brass, one of which I plan to have opened up a little bit. 

I had a new one come with my MD+ horn last year...I played it for a week or so and didn't mind the size and feel of the rim, but it was very very bright. Easy articulations and a big, clear tone but ultimately too bright for my tastes. You're right, it was definitely much bigger than most peoples idea of the 11c ballpark!

I'd be interested to hear how opening one up would go.

Quote from: DaveAshley on Aug 13, 2017, 07:36AMI know this sounds strange, but the Shires 11C feels very similar to a 6.5A, only a bit smaller in the cup. I have three of them - One original (made in Taiwan, from what I understand), and two new ones made by Pickett Brass, one of which I plan to have opened up a little bit. 

I had a new one come with my MD+ horn last year...I played it for a week or so and didn't mind the size and feel of the rim, but it was very very bright. Easy articulations and a big, clear tone but ultimately too bright for my tastes. You're right, it was definitely much bigger than most peoples idea of the 11c ballpark!

I'd be interested to hear how opening one up would go.