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H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:57 am
by BonifiedKing
Hello,
I need help identifying this instrument. I just bought it on a whim, and until I receive it in the mail, these are the ik not pictures I have. I can't find any other Kings that look similar, but the case and engraving all look legit. Any help would be much appreciated!!
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:06 am
by Neo Bri
King 3BF I think.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:09 am
by BGuttman
Can you find a serial number on it? It should have 6 digits and we only need to get the first 3.
The King 1100 series might be a good candidate. I have a Model 1130 that looks like a straight version of yours. The 1100s date from the mid 1920s to the mid 1930s.
Also looks like the trigger for the F-attachment needs some work.
Bri: not a 3BF. Friction fit and TIS. Also probably much older.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:14 am
by Neo Bri
Oh yeah. Lots of obvious differences. Cool looking horn.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:28 pm
by Elow
Was this that bass that was on reverb?
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:58 pm
by BonifiedKing
BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:09 am
Can you find a serial number on it? It should have 6 digits and we only need to get the first 3.
The King 1100 series might be a good candidate. I have a Model 1130 that looks like a straight version of yours. The 1100s date from the mid 1920s to the mid 1930s.
Also looks like the trigger for the F-attachment needs some work.
Bri: not a 3BF. Friction fit and TIS. Also probably much older.
I can just barely see the first two numbers and maybe a third behind the shoulder brace. I'm pretty certain they are 354
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:01 pm
by BonifiedKing
Elow wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:28 pm
Was this that bass that was on reverb?
It was indeed on reverb, but still not sure if it's a bass or not. It looks like a bach 12C mouthpiece, so I'm guessing its small-medium bore (which is what I'm hoping for). Very excited to try it out.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:58 pm
by BGuttman
G to
www.hnwhite.com and look at the trombone page. Scroll down to find the Model 1130 Bass Trombone. Looks just like what you have.
Note that a Bass Trombone in 1925 is a lot smaller than a Bass Trombone of today. In fact, it's probably closer to Medium Bore (0.535").
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:42 pm
by Finetales
This one doesn't have the curved handslide braces that the 1130 on the HN White site does. Did they phase out the curved braces before production of the 1130 ended in 1929-30?
Either way, a TIS .535 3B++F sounds awesome and I want one. As well as that model 1125 straight C trombone.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:22 am
by BGuttman
I have the staight version, which is 1115 and it doesn't have the doubled hand brace either. Seems they didn't put that on the large bore horns. I have to say, the doubled brace (I have a #2 with it) makes it very uncomfortable to hold.
My 1115 came with a leadpipe that took small shank mouthpieces. I had the mouthpiece receiver pulled and can use large shank mouthpieces with it (and that makes it play a lot better).
When those were made F-attachments were QUITE rare. The only players who used them were symphony players covering 3rd trombone. Even concert band players used straight trombones.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:54 am
by BonifiedKing
I found the 1130 Bass Trombone and it looks identical except for the curved hand brace! Wow that's crazy. I used no idea how old this thing was when I bought it. Hopefully I'll lost another picture once I get it fixed up and playing. Also what does TIS mean??
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:59 am
by BGuttman
TIS means you have a tuning mechanism built into the slide (Tuning in slide). There is no tuning slide in the bell section where you would expect it.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:10 am
by Kingfan
http://www.hnwhite.com/Serial%20Numbers.htm
The serial numbers are confusing. If it has a five digit serial number beginning with 354, that would be 1910-1915, which is too early. Six digits would put it in the latter part of the 1950s, which is too late.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:13 am
by BonifiedKing
BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:22 am
I have the staight version, which is 1115 and it doesn't have the doubled hand brace either. Seems they didn't put that on the large bore horns. I have to say, the doubled brace (I have a #2 with it) makes it very uncomfortable to hold.
My 1115 came with a leadpipe that took small shank mouthpieces. I had the mouthpiece receiver pulled and can use large shank mouthpieces with it (and that makes it play a lot better).
When those were made F-attachments were QUITE rare. The only players who used them were symphony players covering 3rd trombone. Even concert band players used straight trombones.
What is the bore size of your 1115 model?
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:23 am
by BGuttman
I haven't measured it exactly but it is somewhere between 0.535 and 0.550 (inches).
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:25 am
by JohnL
It could be that the "354" is from somewhere in the middle of the serial number.
I would guess that it's from the late 1920's or early 1930's; after King dropped the double brace between the cork barrels and before they introduced the 1480 (Symphony model with f-attachment). The pictures were shot from terrible angles; they don't show the back of the valve at all, nor do they show the tuning mechanism (though I think that may be because it's missing entirely).
I'm trying to figure out how the valve linkage works; if it's like the one in the catalog description, it's a yo-yo style.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:36 am
by BGuttman
There are 3 braces in the slide. The one closest to the slide bow is on the "movable" section. It should have a hole through which a threaded rod passes (rod attaches to the slide brace) similar to a lot of the Olds basses.
I believe the trigger has broken off and is next to the lyre. Simple solder job to fix. Valve uses a string linkage like a French Horn.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:28 pm
by BonifiedKing
BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:36 am
There are 3 braces in the slide. The one closest to the slide bow is on the "movable" section. It should have a hole through which a threaded rod passes (rod attaches to the slide brace) similar to a lot of the Olds basses.
I believe the trigger has broken off and is next to the lyre. Simple solder job to fix. Valve uses a string linkage like a French Horn.
So from what you can tell, is the threaded rod missing from the tuning mechanism?
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:01 pm
by BGuttman
BonifiedKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:28 pm
BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:36 am
There are 3 braces in the slide. The one closest to the slide bow is on the "movable" section. It should have a hole through which a threaded rod passes (rod attaches to the slide brace) similar to a lot of the Olds basses.
I believe the trigger has broken off and is next to the lyre. Simple solder job to fix. Valve uses a string linkage like a French Horn.
So from what you can tell, is the threaded rod missing from the tuning mechanism?
Perhaps. The rod should be fairly close to one of the slide tubes and may not show in the pictures posted. You may not need it, depending on the fit of the tuning mechanism.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:24 pm
by JohnL
BonifiedKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:28 pmSo from what you can tell, is the threaded rod missing from the tuning mechanism?
I see what looks an awful lot like an empty hole through the third brace near the lower tube. It's possible there's a mechanism there, but that's not the way I'd bet.
Parts from another brand of TIS slide might be adaptable; if not, there's techs out there who could make a mechanism for you.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:47 pm
by djkennedy
Could be a thumb pull
Inners nickle
Or chromed
Soldered on stockings????
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:58 pm
by Oslide
There are trombonists who always play with their tuning (in bell) slide all the way in and tune with the hand slide. If your tuning (in slide) slide sits tightly enough you could do the same, and not bother about adding a tuning mechanism. Of course that's not an option if your outer slide threatens to slip off during fast slide action...
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:46 pm
by JohnL
djkennedy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:47 pmSoldered on stockings????
Almost certainly. My 1485 from the late 1940's has soldered-on stockings. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Re: H.N. White King trombone with F attachment
Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:57 pm
by BonifiedKing
Thank you all very much for the help. UPS hasn't given me an ETA yet but it's in transit. Y'all are great people. I'll be back