TromboneChat

Title says it, why did someone create that? Did it accomplish what they wanted? How different does it sound?

Having worked closely with one of the best trombone designers ever, I can tell you with 100% certainty the thought started with "I wonder what would happen if..."

The rimless bell (Vocabell) is really well suited to electroforming (building up bell thickness through electroplating rather than starting from a sheet).

Vocabell instruments had rather thick bells -- at least the 44H I played did. At one basic level they didn't sound that different. But the sound of a 44H is different from a modern horn. It worked well in a small concert band, but not that well in orchestra or Jazz Band. I listened to an ensemble recreating a Theater Orchestra of the Silent Film era and it worked well there.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:15 pm The rimless bell (Vocabell) is really well suited to electroforming (building up bell thickness through electroplating rather than starting from a sheet).

Vocabell instruments had rather thick bells -- at least the 44H I played did. At one basic level they didn't sound that different. But the sound of a 44H is different from a modern horn. It worked well in a small concert band, but not that well in orchestra or Jazz Band. I listened to an ensemble recreating a Theater Orchestra of the Silent Film era and it worked well there.

I think the bell thickness was a try at compensating for lack of bell ring.

The 44H i had was awesome to play but didn't work i group settings. When i used it for bigband lead when not using my 6H, I characterized it like using a sniper rifle. It was very focused sound that didn't radiate to the rest of the section like my 6H did.


Cool horns though.

Art Deco that’s the thought
Streamline
Eversharp
skyline pens coming from aircraft design
Where form follows function
The top of the Empire State Building
Bauhaus
Where you grow up ???a tent ????
The Buescher had a stagger wing
Look at some buildings Gropius
I M Pei
Frank Llyod Wright
Or maybe somebody got drunk

What’s the thought behind monette
BAC Wild designs
Fashion
Something besides tee shirts and jeans
Art dance theatre
Creativity
A very famous band of color
HarlemZZZZOOT SUITS
FENDER SKIRTS
DUESENBERG PACKARD SUPERCHARGED BENTLEY
INDIAN MOTORCYCLES
FLASH GORDON
ZIP Zap tap dance
Rockettes
E e Cummings Oscar Wilde
VOCA BELL THE BEST TROMBONE
IN THE WORLD

I think DJ has summed it up perfectly, in his inimitable manner:

FASHION (... think Art Deco).

It's different. It's cool. Nobody else has one that looks like this. Make a statement!

djkennedy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:27 pmVOCA BELL THE BEST TROMBONE IN THE WORLD

Or at least one of the coolest looking.

I think it has more to do than just looks.

I once tried two high-end euphoniums (I honestly don't remember the brand...it was either Sterling or Hirsbrunner) back to back. Same exact model, but one of them had a rimless bell like the Vocabell. The response of the rimless one was to die for...a night and day difference between the other one with the normal rimmed bell (and that one was stellar). I didn't notice much, if any, difference in sound from my side of the bell, but the rimless bell took an already fantastic instrument to another level.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:30 pm I think DJ has summed it up perfectly, in his inimitable manner:

FASHION (... think Art Deco).

It's different. It's cool. Nobody else has one that looks like this. Make a statement!

Marketing to be sure. I wouldn't go as far as to compare a 44H piece of art deco art to a Big And Crappy horn that commandeers designs, slaps a pigtail on the back and claims it to be their own .

The 44H is a testament to musical engineering and art.

Lol BAC

Maybe they were trying to keep up with all of Getzen's art deco shenanigans...

I play 2nd in a big band that mainly play Basie. The lead player had the idea we should play .485 horns so we did. Me and him on 4h and the third player on a Bach 6 . After we heard the recordings from our concerts we found out we drowned the trumpets with our horns. The lead player then discovered a 44h to be a little warmer but still lazer sharp so we, me and lead both played our 44h for a while until he found a Conn 6h. Now he uses that 6h. I'm quite happy because my Yanaha 891Z is a great fit on second now. I also like a .500 or larger for the jazz solos. If this says anything about the 44h it is that horn has a broader sound than the 4h's we first played but a 6h and a Yanaha 891Z can take a lot more before they get nasty. I think a Vocabell on lead still is a good choice in the hands of the right player.

/Tom

Vegastokc wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:50 am Maybe they were trying to keep up with all of Getzen's art deco shenanigans...

THe 44H predates the Getzen Dude by 20 years.

Note: if you find the Mantia-Randall version of Arban's, Mantia is holding a 44H in his picture.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:17 am THe 44H predates the Getzen Dude by 20 years.

Note: if you find the Mantia-Randall version of Arban's, Mantia is holding a 44H in his picture.

LOL. Fair enough.
Probably makes sense to flip that comment around.

I am definitely checking my Arbans when I get home. I think I did notice that along time ago,
Someone had a nice 44H at Trombone Xmas KC 2018. Sharp looking horn.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:02 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:15 pm The rimless bell (Vocabell) is really well suited to electroforming (building up bell thickness through electroplating rather than starting from a sheet).

Vocabell instruments had rather thick bells -- at least the 44H I played did.

I think the bell thickness was a try at compensating for lack of bell ring.

Interestingly, the bells aren't especially heavy overall. They're two part constructions, and both flare and spout are a consistent 0.5mm, until the final inch of flare diameter where there's a smooth taper up to c.1mm at the edge.

Are there any other makers who are making bells like these now, or even back then?

When I worked as a military musician in the late 50th early 60th I was handed a True Tone with the same vocabell. I believe it was made by Buesher? Maybe somebody can correct?

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:03 am Are there any other makers who are making bells like these now, or even back then?

..
The standard Lawler bell flare rim is folded back onto itself, flattened, and soldered. Not the same as a vocabell though somewhat similar, and the result is a very immediate response.
..

Bells of brass instruments vibrate in certain patterns. The influence of these on the emitted sound is debated, e.g.
http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acous ... 001911.pdf

The measured, or calculated, patterns remind me of those seen on typani membranes, shown e.g. in this animation
https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/ ... ircle.html

It doesn't seem to be too far-fetched to assume that i.a. the stiffness of the bell rim will have an effect on the distribution of these patterns on the bell and thus on the sound.

A bell rim without a bead (Vocabell, Lawler bells?) can be expected to be less stiff than one reinforced by a 'normal' bead made from round steel wire, or an only half-round 'French' bead.

Different brass bells have been produced with different types of beads, certainly mostly based on results from trial-and-error. It seems 'logical' then also to try versions without any bead at all.

This is a great conversation - thanks to all who've contributed.

The big question, though and one that I assume all of the horn builders have answered in their own shops at some point, is:

With the same gauge bell, how different is the response/tone between rolled/rolled&soldered/rimless?

My 4H with a bead, has a pretty damn thick bell. If the bead was trimmed off, would it respond like a 44H voca? Don't know and won't be trying it... Would love to see one of the shops demo this - surely they've got a room full of prototypes to pull out!

One variable at a time, otherwise you may as well compare that 44H to a bari sax.

Simon

sgreatwood wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:39 am This is a great conversation - thanks to all who've contributed.

The big question, though and one that I assume all of the horn builders have answered in their own shops at some point, is:

With the same gauge bell, how different is the response/tone between rolled/rolled&soldered/rimless?

My 4H with a bead, has a pretty damn thick bell. If the bead was trimmed off, would it respond like a 44H voca? Don't know and won't be trying it... Would love to see one of the shops demo this - surely they've got a room full of prototypes to pull out!

One variable at a time, otherwise you may as well compare that 44H to a bari sax.

Simon

Having been to a large number of these shops and poked around a bit... yes they do have some prototypes and trials hanging around, but not as many as we would probably want. I haven't seen many rimless bells hanging out (can't remember any other than seeing a 44H in one shop). You have to have some bounds on what you make, and that seems to be out of bounds for some. That said, it is very easy with Edwards and Shires horns to try the same bell type with soldered and unsoldered rims. Rimless

As for one other comment: ONE VARIABLE AT A TIME IS HORRIBLE ENGINEERING PRACTICE. That is, the study needs to be designed for multiple variables in advance and the chosen combinations evaluated. I believe the vocabell design shows why this is. The bell on the 44H is pretty darned thick. If they had just taken the rim off of one of their pre-war Conns with a pretty thin bell they would miss that combination. Of course, you can find the same combination just by trying every random design you can think of, but that is a good way to lose a lot of money on R&D and not optimize any design.

Cheers,
Andy